That's exactly what I said. It has to render twice as many polygons at a time. Or am I misusing the word "render"?Originally Posted by ProblemSolver
Phantom Pilot
That's exactly what I said. It has to render twice as many polygons at a time. Or am I misusing the word "render"?
Veteran Pilot
YELDER
Anything you saw at that Sony demo apart from WOHD , SSHD and Motostorm would of been using the TV's 2D to 3D processing.
I agree, it does seem that they have rushed this out and the whole thing is half arsed.
I bet that demo you saw was using a PS3 that also didn't have the latest 3D gaming optimized 3.30 software that came out on Friday.
I'm just hoping it will all look better when Sony start showing 3D on a normal, everyday PS3 with the 3.30 SS and the proper "Latest" 3D versions of the games.
As it is, you don't really know if this is as good as it's going to get for 1st generation 3D .
If it is I'll give it a miss.
Samsung are showing a show reel loop of a Soccer match & a sprint race.
Panasonic are showing both a clip of the movie and Xbox version of AVATAR.
Neither will show anything else if asked.
The Samsung show reel is supplied by Sony - go figure
And the AVATAR movie clip was specially produced version to be shown on those Panasonic screens.
They are all saying wait till 3D Bluray arrives, that will be the best.
I somehow doubt it.
All 3D movies are shot for a specific screen size [cinema], it is decided before shooting begins.
So you are going to have a basic mismatch from the start with the smaller home screen,it's a distance thing, it won't be unless you are watching it through a home 3D PJ with a much larger screen that things will be looking OK .
All 3 manufacturers seem to be aiming for a different area of the 3D market , but all agree that it will be 3D gamers that will most likely lead the up take.
SONY if aiming at mostly Gaming with 3D Bluray playback secondary.
SAMSUNG is going for the sports watcher and hoping on 3D broadcasts, with 2D to 3D processing as back up.
PANASONIC is aiming for the 3D Bluray market, it bought Pioneers old plasma factory and the patents to the "KURO" technology, as well as picking up 250 of it's high tech staff.
Extreme Pilot
@DL: It has to render twice the amount of polygons, but this doesn't seem to
be the problem. Rendering a polygon (applying shaders and stuff) is different
from processing geometry as such. To render the second set of polygons you
have to go through all the geometric transformation again, streaming all the
geometry to the SPEs and doing various calculations. WOHD's rendering stage
may easily render two different 720p images, but may not be able to process
the geometric data in time for each 720p image. The reason I wrote; "I would
expect 720p@60fps for 3-D, at least.", was written with WipEout HD in mind.
Not every game needs 60fps in 3-D. But it's pretty ridiculous to play WipEout
in 30fps in anyD.
Interesting post. I'm interested in how this will turn out in the end.
Last edited by ProblemSolver; 25th April 2010 at 08:30 AM.
Banned
Veteran Pilot
Checked out the 3D TV range at Harvey's on Saturday.
Sony tv looks quite good actually, both in picture and as well as physical display. Im looking to buy one maybe later on in the year. Whats the best brand out there atm for 3D tvs?
Phantom Pilot
Ah. I had assumed that processing the geometry and then displaying the image (along with any shader effects) fell under the umbrella of "rendering". Thanks for clearing that up.
As someone who has played the splitscreen mode numerous times with friends, I wholeheartedly agree with you. If they had just simplified the graphics (like in EVERY OTHER SPLIT-SCREEN GAME EVER, including Wipeout 64 and Wipeout 3), that wouldn't have been a problem.
Moderator
Zone Pilot
Agree - I've tried split screen and I just feel completely disconnected from what's happening on the screen.
Veteran Pilot
All the brands of 3D TV are different, all have their pros & cons apart from bells & whistles.
PANASONIC - PROS - plasma so it should be cheaper , Deepest black level as it's basically a Pioneer KURO [best flat screens ever made]
CONS - Picture Flicker , Plasmas run hotter than LCD/LED, possible screen burn-in if playing games a lot.
SAMSUNG [7000 & 6000 series] - PROS - Cheaper than Sony , choice of Plasma or LCD/LED in their range.[wait for the 8000 series LCD/LED 3D sets]
CONS- Use edge lighting instead of back lighting, some picture ghosting,uses polarizing glasses so more light loss, glasses feel flimsy & cheap, same cons as Panasonic for Plasma versions
SONY - PROS - HX series [best picture in Sony range] can be bought as 2D TV then add glasses & receiver later for 3D, uses LCD shutter glasses so light loss minimal.
CONS- Expensive , limited sizes, 2D to 3D processing seems like an afterthought.
There's a lot of other differences, but those are the most basic.
You would want to make sure that any 3D TV you might consider buying was able to have it's 3D processing software up-datable,otherwise your set will be out of date before you get it out of the box.
The SAMSUNG 8000 series has had a BIG software update and it's only been out 2 months and is reported to of made a huge difference.
Venom Pilot
It's way more convuluted than that - Sony outsources several items to NEC, Sharp, Taiwan, etc., as does Samsung.
Sharp and Samsung are the biggest LCD panel manufacturers.
Sharp make their own panels and source some from China. Samsung makes most of the panels that go into Sony's TV's in a factory in Korea that Sony now has shares in. Sony also outsources some of their 40" panels from AU Optics, which is owned by BenQ and Acer. Oddly enough BenQ outsources a number of their panels from Lite-On.
Samsung outsources some of their panels from Taiwan, as does Toshiba.
Sharp and Sony also reached a new agreement in 2008 to share panel duties - http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/commen...on-lcd-panels/
LG buys a number of their panels from Sharp.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/03...ls_from_sharp/
This goes on and on. Pioneer were going to source their 10G panels for their plasma's from Panasonic, as Hitachi did for their most recent plasma sets.
Of course you have to keep in mind that the electronics that go inside are from the individual electronics companies where the big names are concerned. Sharp Aquos TV's use Aquos technology, Sony's Bravia's include Sony's own motionflow/blahblahblah chips, etc., etc.
Maximum audio bandwith currently supported by any media on the market is 27.648 Mbps and maximum HDMI bandwidth is 10.2 Gbps. If bandwidth refers to data, why do you suggest the video is limited to 8.16 Gbps?
I'm pretty sure the new Panasonic Blu-ray player outputs 1080p120 (2 x 1080p60). I don't know why they didn't implement the 3D as 1080p48 given that it is 2 1080p24 streams on the disc, hopefully next year...or maybe 3:2 judder isn't as apparent in 3D?
Do you have a link to that NEC factory purchase? Panasonic have 5 plasma factories including the one they just opened in December capable of producing the 2160p 152" 3D plasma.
Definitely a Samsung or Panasonic plasma, and the Panasonic would likely be the better of the two. I'm unaware why blackwiggle listed flicker as a con on the 3D plasma as there is none on the VT20/VT25 Panasonic 3D plasmas with either 2D or 3D material. You can watch 2D material at 96Hz (4:4 pulldown eliminating 3:2 judder) or 3D at 120Hz. If you were to watch an LED 3D demo and then move onto the Panasonic you'll notice that the shortcomings of LCD technology are exacerbated with 3D. The response time, regardless of how much you beef up the refresh rate, is not quick enough to avoid ghosting. The left image cannot decay from the screen fast enough before the right image kicks in and motion interpolation or ME/MC chips will only succeed in causing artifacting.
Where 3D is concerned, plasma would be my only recommendation. The 2009 Viera sets already acheived 1080/1080 motion resolution with no artifacting, the 2010 sets have managed to cut luminance time on the pixel down to 33% of the 2009 models and decay time down to 25% of the 2009 models, acheiving 1/12th of the response time of the TV's that were already the market leaders in this area.
Extreme Pilot
@blackwiggle: So I hope they will all do at least 3-D and not 2.9-D or
even 3.2-D.
@dobyblue: That's a lot of outsourcing. xD Well, I thing Connavar meant
10.2 Gbps. About the 'new Panasonic Blu-ray player', where to buy and where
are the specs? Would be cool if that player can do 1080p@120Hz, but I can't
see why 120Hz would be beneficial here since blu-rays aren't recorded at
60fps for 3-D, or? That would be new to me, if true.
Some simple geometry processing can be associated to the rendering process
like for example transforming the world coordinate-space into the light
coordinate-space to simplify shadow calculations (shadow maps). But in
general, the vertex processors in a sub-FERMI (Nvidia) graphics cards are
very limited if it comes to more complex calculation like for example hidden
surface removal (HSR) or physical stuff like collision detection and so on.
And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the shaders used for WipEout HD are
actually computed on the SPEs as well.
I wish SL could even further work on WipEout HD to gain more knowledge,
whatsoever, increasing their software stack, to enhance the current iteration
of WipEout HD even further, and to prepare for a new Wipeout for PS3. Given
the performance of the PS3 and all the insights gathered over the years, and
given all the professional and talented people over at SL, a possible next
Wipeout for the PS3 that pushes the PS3 to its utmost limits, would....
Arrgh, I need to stop typing. It hurts quite a bit knowing that this won't
come true.
Veteran Pilot
Yea sure I've got a reference to the Panasonic -Pioneer "KURO" buy out.
It was part of the spiel I got at Panasonic's big launch here in Australia.
Read it at this link [2 pages]
http://www.channelnews.com.au/Display/Plasma/J4P8T4S3
I could argue with salesmen forever.
TRUST YOUR EYES & DON'T BELIEVE BULL SHI7
Last edited by blackwiggle; 26th April 2010 at 02:16 PM.
Venom Pilot
@blackwiggle: <--Inserted by SaturnReturn as an example of a better way to address posts directly before.
No mention of acquiring the NEC factory there. Again, to the best of my knowledge Panny only acquired staff and patents, there would have been no need for them to acquire the factory given that they already own 5 plasma manufacturing facilities.
Yeah that's why I said I don't know why they would go that route. The encoding is a 1080p48 encoding and non-3D panels will simply ignore the right-eye frames as the left eye is deemed the master field to get 1080p24.@blackwiggle: So I hope they will all do at least 3-D and not 2.9-D or
even 3.2-D.
@dobyblue: That's a lot of outsourcing. xD Well, I thing Connavar meant
10.2 Gbps. About the 'new Panasonic Blu-ray player', where to buy and where
are the specs? Would be cool if that player can do 1080p@120Hz, but I can't
see why 120Hz would be beneficial here since blu-rays aren't recorded at
60fps for 3-D, or? That would be new to me, if true.
The VT25 series Panasonic sets will show 3D at 120Hz, the Blu-ray player performing 3:2 telecine on EACH of the frames, both left and right, converting 1080p48 to 1080p120. It seems bizarre to me that there is not an option for 1080p48 output with 96Hz refresh rate (2:2 pulldown on each side) eliminating 3:2 judder.
I'm waiting until next year anyway. One of two of the Kuro patents have shown up in the newest sets, but that was pretty much rushed in from what I can gather and the true effect of the Kuro R&D team will not be seen until next year's models, which touring calibrator D-Nice from the AVS forums claims will surpass the Kuro sets for minimum luminance levels and ANSI contrast...a feat no other TV on the market is close to doing.
The Panasonic Blu-ray player is model # DMP-BDT300 and I think it might be exclusive to Best Buy at the moment, but hopefully not for much longer. Retailer exclusives induce hostility in me as a consumer.
Nice thing about the Panny is you can run its TWO HDMI outputs in parallel so that you don't have to upgrade your receiver to still get lossless digital audio. One is HDMI 1.4, the secondary port is legacy HDMI 1.3
Last edited by SaturnReturn; 26th April 2010 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Quote example. Don't forget the rules. ;-)
Venom Pilot
Sorry, this thread is quite long and I might be asking a repeat question. So if someone kind enough can answer
When is this 3D coming out for WipEout HD? I read about reduction in detail and framerate, that is disappointing, but not unexpected for me. I am still interested. Prices are way too high right now but one day I'd like to try. WipEout HD made it to HD, now it's about to make it to 3D. Perhaps not in the detail level Studio Liverpool would have wished to, but still.
Veteran Pilot
If you have a 3D TV you could play it now, the last system update 3.30 made your PS3 able to play 3D games.
The big PS3 system update that will enable 3D Bluray playback from your console has been rumored to be a June 10th release.
Sony is releasing the prices for it's 3D TV's on 18th May.
They are doing a deal when you buy Sony a 3D TV, you get 4 free 3D games to download, so logically the 3D games themselves will be available when the TV's go on sale.
Extreme Pilot
Just some interesting stuff Sony is going for; Sony Stereo 3D Competition.
In essence, Sony wants to put a BD with each new 3-D Bravia TV. The
BD will include the best takes from those being part of the competition.
Btw; You can win a 3-D TV and much more.
Extreme Pilot
Venom Pilot
And here we go - one extra dimension gets added to WO starting tomorrow (for the US anyway).
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/...tation.Blog%29
Extreme Pilot
Well maybe that's what the current downtime is about. Sadly I'll have to wait until I get a 3D TV to be able to play this, which could be a while. I have been looking at the Samsung ones, which have a feature for adding depth to standard images, but I don't know how well that works.
Is there anyone here on the Zone who will be able to test the update? It would be nice to know whether it works well or not.
Rapier Pilot
I'm downloading the 2.20 update now. Will report back when it's done.
Edit : Just tried it, and I can't see anything different. I did notice a very low and annoying hissing sound that I haven't heard before. Not sure if it's the game or my sound-system though.
Last edited by DrMannevond; 9th June 2010 at 09:52 PM.
Veteran Pilot
It's probably your PS3's fan working overtime trying to cool the graphics card
Rapier Pilot
You're probably right. It's 1:30 in the morning, I have both windows open and it's cloudy outside. I still had to turn the PS3 off because of the heat
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