SL redundancies and the future [if any] of HD

[Sausehuhn]

Nice read, Colin.

At the first WOZ Convention (long, long ago) I experienced some of the passion you guys had/have for the WipEout games and that it's not common in the game industry to actually love a game that much. That you care for it being the best you can do and spend much more time in it than you would normally do.

To quote a friend of mine: "Seriously, I don't need another game for the PS3 but WipEout HD".

[XpanDrome2097]

Not to sound cynical (merely sobering), but Wipeout has been dead for 10 years now. Its spirit has lived on in games called "Wipeout" and they are fun in their own right. I own and enjoy several, putting at least a couple hundred hours into them total. Mechanically, though, the last Wipeout game was SE. The floaty, air-lifting gameplay that made the game so unique and genre-defining has been gone since the 20th century.

The guys that left SL? Well, mechanically they turned Wipeout into an ordinary vehicle racing game with air-brakes and barrel rolls. The games are still very enjoyable. Aesthetically and musically they are spiritual kin to Wipeout. But, they don't fly like Wipeout and nothing has for over a decade.

I agree with the essence of your post (the handling) and honestly I prefer the handling of the classic PS1 games, but at the same time I respect all the games available for PS2, PSP and PS3: for me WipEout remains an experience, and WipEout has changed after the first 3 games, this was its natural evolution, expecially in handling.

NOTE: My firsts opinions about the WipEout future was full of sadness, but now I don't believe in any way that HD would be the last WipEout.

[MiguelX69]

@Koleax, mine's do also. But, you must admit, in the PS1, megadrive ages, games had poor graphics, and were very simple, and even that way some of us played them for hours and hours and hours.

Unfortunatly time's changed, and today people are to demanding, graphics need to be the priority, and some games can't just get a hold of it. Wipeout is NOT a case of that, altough.

[blackwiggle]

I remember when the news that HD would be coming out, and people complaining about HD not being on disc and saying they wouldn't buy it as a download only game.
I think that might of had a small bearing on sales, mainly in the perception of value people have with virtual goods [It seems ring-tones for your mobile don't have this problem ] even though HD costs a LOT less as a download only game, there was still the want for a hard copy.
It's the same, most likely of several reasons, for the PSP GO!'s failure.
[I know HD/FURY is available in limited release as a PAL region only disc version]

But after having the quick load times of the game being installed directly on the hard drive, would anybody really want to go back to the slow load times of a disc version, I mean that was one of, if not the main reason I stopped playing FUSION, it just seems to take so long to load

This has put any future wipeouts in a catch 22 situation.
Do you release it on disc or download only version?

If they release it as a disc version, and even if Sony don't promote it, the sheer fact that will be seen on store shelves in the "coming soon" section, and again when it's actually on sale, will alert people of it's existence, something HD never had.
It will also satisfy those who will not buy download only games, and give it a second lease of life in the secondhand market, again a promotion of sorts.
This might possibly give it better sales,but it will suffer slower loading times, and inevitably complaints about this when compared to HD.

Which would you opt for?

Depending on the success of 3D games and if the next wipeout will be 3D [I don't know how big the file sizes are for 3D games], maybe a disc version might be the only option, as the downloads might be too large.

[Colin Berry]

Don't know if you can give a non-trivial answer to the following question.
Well, you said; "But I think overall we (that wipeout team) stopped on a
high,...". Why?

Btw; WipEout HD Fury pwns! No need to justify.

I say we stopped on a high because the final thing we did was Wipeout Fury, and though I myself was not day to day involved at all (I contributed little to fury) it was the final thing the team did, and it was ace. We stopped because after Fury, Sony decision makers decided they wanted no more, at the time, I honestly think the team was kind of happy to have a little break but I also think the team would have welcomed the chance to continue with DLC for Hd, alas it wasnt on sonys radar. There are still some Pure-HD guys at sony, but many are no longer there, so any further Wipeout would be a new era, if something happens I'll be interested to see what they do, it would likely need people inspired by what we did to take it over and take it on in order to take it further, just as we, inspired by the first wipeout generation, took that and made our own take of it.

The cool thing is from a purely selfish point of view, we got the opportunity to make 'our wipeout' which on a personal level was all I ever wanted to do in the industry, I was working in psygnosis QA with my career aim to be 'lead designer of a wipeout game' back in 1999.
I never wanted to remake WO2097 or 'improve it' all I ever wanted to do was make 'my own wipeout' and after learning many things during WO Fusion, I was fortunate enough to be in a position to work with people who felt the same and WE made OUR wipeout. It was never perfect, I can point to many holes in pure, pulse, hd, fury some that you guys know some that you dont, but we really did create it with passion, and I think thats my only regret of the time, that the people who really poured passion into such things never really reaped the rewards and many ended up shafted. Its an aside, I'm not bitter (maybe a little), but there are not many games born and created from sheer desire and passion, and I think sony shot itself in the foot when it let many of such passionate staff go in fact I dont think it, I know, sony fkd up there end of story. I left pre redundancies and I primarily left because I had no passion for any of the opportunites ahead of me at sony, the concepts I felt passionate about where not favourable to management and vice versa which is fair enough, sony is a business there to generate money not feed my or anyone elses ego. I'm glad I left wipeout when and where I did, but I also know there is a tiny nagging feeling of unfinished business with it, which actually makes me want to see another version, someone elses vision, just to see what they do with it. As I've said before, I'd have loved a crack at doing a true Wipeout 3D, hopefully someone will be afforded that opportunity.

late night waffle FTW

[blackwiggle]

Colin
Who plans the future games for Sony, is it SCEE or SCEA or a combination of the both?

[Colin Berry]

A combination of SCEE and the internal studio heads for Liverpool / London etc would have the ultimate say

Decisions lie within the respective regions but all 3 regions work together to reach concensus because thats the senisible approach, it would be daft if one region developed a game the others didnt want or all 3 developed similar titles for example.

So although there are 3 regions they work together, because its sensible and common sense.

[Kyonshi]

Why WipEout would disappear? Why would it be hypothetical that another WipEout title will perhaps be made some day?

WipEout will live again.

It's not just the flavor of the month, dammit. It's become a legacy, a testimony that AG racing is viable, despite most people would say, that a game can carry on over the years, that a game can be conceived with fiery passion, that a game can be fashion-driven and in the end, a flagship game for $ony. Yes it's true, marketing suffered a major flaw in America. But damn, the whole European continent isn't something to take so lightly, isn't it? Europe has a massive influence on video games, and i would dare to say has much has America and Japan can have. WipEout cannot just disappear from the map. Even if most of the team is disbanded, even if $ony ****ed up a valuable asset from their arsenal. How could such a successful game should vanish in a nameless void???

Some other people will carry over, and if those people have the slightest sense of judgment and decency, they will collaborate with former SL staff as consultants. WipEout left its mark in the history of video games, it cannot be forgotten and left to eternal sleep.

Funny thing is, where i see Blur, i see another WipEout after. Not saying Activision should take over the next WipEout (please God have mercy), but the proof that combat racing is still alive because of WipEout i would even dare to say. The next time some people revive WipEout, they will put up such flamboyant marketing, artistic design and longly elaborated gameplay that the whole planet will witness it. WipEout is also a propulsing engine for artists in the graphic design and musical industries (Designer's Republic, DJs and electronic music composers). The oncoming 3D hype will inevitably draw its attention to WipEout to sustain itself. Just add the right custom design personnalisation tools and a storyline backbone to the game and you got a killer again.

The only thing pissing me off in this is to not know when it'll happen nor do we have any time references of the big return. For the time being guys, don't give up hope and give up on saying "Oh well we may never another title again, all hope is lost, yaddayaddayadda". All of us here, playing the series since 1995 know for sure that WipEout will be back again. The possibilities and the technical developements in video games and too promising to leave WipEout dormant while its passing and we should nurture the hope and dedication we give to the game.

As for me, i've been playing HD/Fury since day 1 and every goddamn day after. I've never been so implicated in a game such as this one and in the community who supports it. I need the game, it's became a drug for me and i need my daily fix. I love it not only because it responds to a lot of concepts i search in a game, but also because in its conception i can feel what Colin said in his previous post; the passion infused in it.

This is my pledge and my tribute to Studio Liverpool: WipEout has found unlimited success and eternal support in me. I am not giving up hope in any case.

Now you'll excuse me, i gotta go barrel-roll

[Koleax]

I think overall we did the name justice, ... [snip] ... no one can deny the team that went from pure through to fury all worked with care and attention to detail and a passion and commitment to wipeout.

Yes, it's very clear that these games were designed with care and commitment. So many times while playing these games, I have thought, "wow, they didn't really have to go that far."

As far as doing the name justice, I agree to that unenthusiastically. I feel like there's a spirit that lived on and I'm glad the team had the opportunity to make these games. I'll play them each to completion probably. I'm just now getting into the PSP games, because I never needed nor liked mobile gaming devices much. So, if they got me to buy a PSP, that's pretty damned good, even if it was five years later.

But, you said you wanted to make "your own Wipeout" and I think you have to agree that you created your own lineage. They look and sound fantastic, but don't feel like the progeny of the PS1 era. Fusion must have been like this step-child that came in and changed everything.

[lunar]

That`s a great read, Colin. Standing back a bit, and indulging my little theory, I think there are two eras to this game. The WipEout - Wipeout Fusion era, at which the point the game dies; then it is reborn with the Pure - HD era, at the end of which it dies again. IMO each one starts with a flawed masterpiece, speeds up in the next issue, but loses a bit of the magic in the process, then gets progressively diluted to the "end of the era."

I think Pure was an absolutely amazing game, you did a great job, and all that had to be done after that, for me, was to add online play and get rid of the reverser and having so so so many bombs!!! (And probably a few other details I could talk about for several hours). The physics of Pure were a magnificent re-invention - so unpredictable and exciting. The tracks were stunning. Less is more with Wipeout though, and with Pulse then HD too many "features" ended up being chucked in, to the detriment of the game`s focus. The handling really suffered too. I hope that doesn`t sound too negative, but really it`s just a tribute to the two best games: WipEout and PurE are the most pure and the best

2097 is of course a supreme game and isn`t far behind though immensely flawed by modern standards, but still a lot better and more essential than its equivalent game, which is Pulse. At the end of the day a Phantom race on 2097/XL Talons Reach remains the blue riband event for many players here, I believe.

I don`t know if there will be another era to the game, let`s hope so.

[brummpahh]

For a Phantom race on 2097/XL Talons Reach in HD
i'd spent some money. Or beer. Or both. Ahhhh,
I would really like to do this !!!

Btw. thx Colin, for that glimpse behind the
Sony curtain. I wish you all the best for your future.

[blackwiggle]

There was a talk of 2097 being released as a download version about 18 months ago but it never happened, and Colin said at the time that he had never been informed about it's release.
There was some other problem with losing the original code to 2097, or something along those lines, so that re doing it in HD was very unlikely, and as Colin has stated in previous posts, not something the SL team personally wanted to do preferring to HDify the PURE & PULSE tracks.

[ProblemSolver]

@Kyonshi: There will be another Wipeout. I'm pretty sure about it!

@Colin: Can you walk me through the process of how Sony came to the decision
that they don't wanted to invest anymore in WipEout HD? I guess there was a
discussion about it. That Sony fukked up is pretty clear from our perspective.
But what has lead them to make such a decision?

You wrote; "... I left pre redundancies and I primarily left because I had no
passion for any of the opportunites ahead of me at sony, the concepts I felt
passionate about where not favourable to management and vice versa ...".
What kind of concepts? Are you willing talk about some of those?

[blackwiggle]

All the SL guys had to sign none disclosure contracts when they left as far as I know, that's why no details have been revealed despite people asking the same questions before.

By the look of the PStore, it would seem the heading Sony want for gaming from the studios it controls are smaller and more frequent games that will be download only, mini's etc.

No packaging, no promotion except in store, cheaper to make, more of them, more often, can make a premium off extra DLC and just a far bigger profit margin for them, cut's the game distributors out as well.

It will be the generation of games that should of been made for mobile phones being played on $800 consoles

[Colin Berry]

@Kyonshi: There will be another Wipeout. I'm pretty sure about it!

@Colin: Can you walk me through the process of how Sony came to the decision
that they don't wanted to invest anymore in WipEout HD? I guess there was a
discussion about it?

Its a decision taken by management. I'm no idea of the ins and outs, sorry. Though I'd guess cost/profit/catalogue play a roll. But its not an area I delve in.

You wrote; "... I left pre redundancies and I primarily left because I had no
passion for any of the opportunites ahead of me at sony, the concepts I felt
passionate about where not favourable to management and vice versa ...".
What kind of concepts? Are you willing talk about some of those?

haha 110% categorically not
sorry.
I have left sony and I disagree with some things they have done and decisions that were made, but I respect the company as a whole, and I value my None Disclosure Agreement. I am happy to talk about the odd thing from the past as I can, but I cant talk about certain things. sorry

[ProblemSolver]

@Colin: Na, I didn't wanted you to speak of any NDA stuff. I just thought
that the concepts you mentioned were independent from Sony, kinda of some
ideas you're carrying around.

... I never wanted to remake WO2097 or 'improve it' all I ever wanted to do was make 'my own wipeout' ...

My version is still missing.

Now that you did what you ever wanted to do, what's next? Any new stuff in
the works?

[Dan Locke]

He's going to be making match-3 games for PopCap.

[blackwiggle]

Colin went to Bizzare Creations before Xmas last year and has been working on the recently released racing game BLUR, which might account for some of the similarities between it and HD.

Two other ex SL staff ended up joining him after being retrenched in the SL shake up earlier this year.

[ProblemSolver]

May hold for Wipeout as well;

Motorstorm 3 dev: 'Racing genre is stuck in a rut'

... PM Evolution says racing has had "a disappointing few years" The racing genre has had "a disappointing few years", according to Motorstorm Apocalypse's assistant game director, Simon Barlow. According to Barlow, more and more people are moving to action and FPS games instead of racing. "The racing genre has had a disappointing few years," Barlow told CVG. "You can look up any sales figures and even extremely high rated racing titles haven't sold as perhaps they should have done or as perhaps they deserve and so it's in a bit of a rut." "I think genres are cyclical and I'm not sure why that is, I'm not sure why people have moved away from racing games," he continued. "Perhaps the emergence of the first person shooter on consoles, a lot of people have graduated towards action games and that sort of thing." Of course, Barlow is hoping that Motorstorm Apocalypse will go some way to pulling people back to the racing genre through pure, unadulterated entertainment. ...

[Ref]

[Colin Berry]

Colin went to Bizzare Creations before Xmas last year and has been working on the recently released racing game BLUR, which might account for some of the similarities between it and HD.

Two other ex SL staff ended up joining him after being retrenched in the SL shake up earlier this year.

nearly... but not quite

I left sony in december and joined bizarre creations at the end of january. I am working on a project that is currently unannounced, I did no work what so ever on Blur (although I do like it, its not wipeout and its not meant to be, but it is fun). However, Karl Jones who worked on Pure, Pulse, HD and then as lead on Fury (and is the best designer I've worked with) joined bizarre last summer and he did work on blur but not me, I'm on something else. There are a few of us here though, from sony, and its proving to be a great place to work. And if I am allowed a tiny bit of arrogance, sonys loss is bizarres gain, because Karl and I (alongside clark davies who left sony 2yrs+ ago) we were the wipeout design team and had been for a long LONG time, and they let us walk away to a company down the road that also has a strong history in racing games.


from a personal point of view it took me maybe 5 nearly 6 years to work out what I wanted to do once we'd done Pure. I enjoyed making pulse and HD, and doing other bits and bobs, but I really realised my ambition early on, which was cool, but also left me without a prime focus or direction at times. In the past 12-18months a few things nearly happened that I'd been really excited about and they never came to fruition, but I have finally begun working out what type of game I'd like to make, what type of game is in my head in the same way Pure was from day zero. I have one game in there that I know given the opportunity I could make and it would be awesome, we'd deliver a 90%+ game because I have the final vision of the game in my head, I can virutally play the game in my head, and I've not had that clarity since Pure.
Whether I'll ever get to do the projects in my head, I'm not sure, but I'm trying to find several so that hopefully one might come off sometime down the line. In the meantime I am enjoying not working on a racing game! Because I've begun learning again, and have gotten a little bit of my mojo back.