Only pitch down when getting into the air however, and it is not handled well. Even pure has better air flying (the feel)
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Only pitch down when getting into the air however, and it is not handled well. Even pure has better air flying (the feel)
I saw your record on Wipeout-game. I think you know there are more people then just me who has used this mod in the record tables. I think I am the only one who has said it out in the open that I used it on some of the tracks. Now I hope everyone will be honest about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashback Jack
I have no problem with that. I used the mod on a few tracks as well, but I'm not aware of anyone besides yourself and Asayyeah who has admitted to using it on the wipeout-game.com record tables. I'll also be clear in saying I don't use it online and didn't this past weekend. The mod changes the ship's handling characteristics too drastically (ship feels heavier in the corners) that it's almost not worth using it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
- F
I am real happy with your honesty now Flashback_Jack! I know some who did use the mod, but didn't talk about it openly yet. I hope they will do in time!
Hope so, but that this point it probably won't make a difference, because wipeout-game.com is all about speed mod, now. :)
- F
Hi guys,
I've been working with 2 profiles ever since I'd decided the ships feel too good not to use the mod. But, the results with zoning are so prefferable I went back to my default profile which I will be uploading when a nice wifi spot gets in my way, with mod'd records.
Some records on the official boards in zone mode reek too much like the mod not to use it in this way.. and still be able to really score on some tracks ;)
Cheers.
I've tried something different with jaytech.
The mod I use is a spare nub cut to fit underneath the standard one, which is easy to keep around and not loose and still stays put through some heavy beating applied to the psp.
What I did is tried to improve my skills when the ships take off. By inverting the mod. The ship tends to lift off at pretty low speeds, which actually has a wicked result, especially with my much beloved zone mode :sonar
I encourage everyone using this mod to try this some time, even if it's just for a good laugh ;)
Cheers!
AnE
Jaytech is cheating imo - just saying!!! I never use it, and have learnt to pitch on straights and long bends manually - with my hands!!!
Corners are bloody tricky though so I leave them alone!
I consider Jaytech cheating because it requires no effort on the part of the pilot.
I dunno.
To be honest, I find it a bit ridiculous that there is a WHOLE THREAD about alternate controllers to use for WOHD on the PS3 and nobody complains-- and yet the use of a small piece of tape on the PSP nub causes a huge shitstorm.
I wish some solution could be found to this because the record tables for Pulse (and to some extent Pure) are anemic, and I suspect a fair number of folks don't race because of uncertainty about the issue.
I would probably vote for creation of split tables (different tables for Jaytech vs. non-Jaytech racing) though I understand that would create additional work for Foxxy. I am pretty sure that this is the approach that would be used by other TT sites that I have participated in, if they were placed in this same situation.
Well, the argument about alternate controllers hasn't been opened yet.
And my point with the speed mod was that it was exterior aid, you weren't pitching down, the tape was for you.
For the alternate controller, I hardly see the exterior aid: you still have to drive your ship around the track. And NegCon functions essentially the same as the analog stick, you could be as precise as a PS3 NegCon with the analog stick if you ever practised enough :)
But sure, according to the rules of the site, which I quoted some posts back in this thread, it wouldn't be valid.
:lol I don't understand all the fuss over JayTech. It's not insanely difficult to pitch down manually (even on the O7 hairpins). It just takes a little practice to get used to the reduced handling (more airbrakes and sideshifts needed). Also, manual pitch must be done lightly, otherwise you'll wobble about from accidentally steering.
Although I've never tried JayTech personally, I'd see it as a disadvantage if anything - does it not remove the ability to pitch up? I use pitch up quite often to get extra BRs in (especially after a weapons or wall hit).
If it does remove pitch up, then it seems to me that it's a bit like those "turbo fire" functions you used to get on some Sega Mega Drive joypads or whatever (i.e. not much use at all).;)
It doesn't, that's why it's an advantage.
D-Pad inputs override Analog stick inputs, so you can still pitch up with the mod attached.
It does the same in WipEout HD.
D-Pad>Analog Stick>Motion Control.
Oh, I see. In that case, yes, it's a little unfair for players who have trouble doing manual pitch.
I'd still recommend manual pitching though, at least wherever manageable, as it provides a fair way to get faster times. And if I can learn to do it, anybody can.:lol
I dunno, it seems that it's at least starting to be discussed, and that not everybody is using the default PS3 controller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkdrium777
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6366
To be clear-- I don't use jaytech and I wish it didn't exist.
But my main concern is that this issue seems to have killed interest in high-end Pure/Pulse competition. Anything that restores interest in these games is a good thing IMHO-- whether that be split charts or simply allowing it to be used, I don't really care.
I don't think there will ever be consensus on whether jaytech is legitimate or not, based on the arguments that have occurred in this thread.
My personal feeling is that the Wipeout franchise has been INCREDIBLY lucky in having relatively few controller issues and game glitches that affect competition. In F-zero and Mario Kart and Diddy Kong and many other racing games, there are very strict and complicated rules for racing styles (PRB, snaking, "free-flight"), controller modifications (mostly d-pad related) and shortcuts. There haven't been many problems of this sort for Wipeout, thank goodness :)
So my question to the WOZ is this-- what can be done to bring together the folks that WANT to use jaytech and the folks that hate the IDEA of jaytech so that everybody feels motivated to play Pulse and Pure time trials again?
Wait, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances_Penfold
Where do you get this from?
I would imagine that HD and Fury are mostly responsible for any decline in Pure and/or Pulse racing.
I find it difficult to believe that a "pitching for speed" game mechanic is the cause of any serious reduction in player base.
The main reason I don't play Pulse is because I prefer Pure, and I've still got competition on those tables.
It's not legitimate at all, consensus is not required! Decision long ago reached, case closed. I'm not sure there was much in the way of argument, mostly lots of good discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances_Penfold
I actually think that the whole "pitch forward for increased acceleration" basic concept is pretty good, it's just that there's nothing in the game to account for the increase in wind drag due to not being pitched flat in the direction of travel. Aerodynamics aren't accounted for, maybe they will be next game. 8 )
I have never even tried this mod. I like to set my records, and to beat my old times, without it. I agree with Jay, the wipeout games for the PS3 are probably what distracts people from playing pure and pulse (well, I guess that there is still some pulse multiplayer activity).
Frances, do you want some Pure TT? How about you Jay? Anyone else? I'm in! :beer
I see where Frances is coming from. One reason I gave up with Pulse was because I like to play with a level playing field and Pulse has never been that for me. It was such a let down - all the hassle and complication over various issues after we had such great days with Pure. But then I never really liked Pulse either so maybe that is why I don`t play it.
With Pure we just played for the love of it - I found it impossible to play Pulse for the love of it because there was so much :turd surrounding the game. And it wasn`t as good ;)
I'm definitely with you on that one lunar, I find Pure to just be a ton of fun, Pulse I just don't enjoy as much.
borell: I'm likely up for some Pure TT. I've mostly been attacking the SR records, so my TT records are likely very easy to beat. In that respect Pure is totally opposite from the other WO's I've enjoyed, usually I'm all over the TT and couldn't care less about the SR!
does this speed mod thing apply to wipeout hd?
No. ..
pitch foward does not increase speed in wipeout hd. For the pulse pure, I did a little speed test on talon jct. By the time the ship hit the first wall, with a turbo start, the ship was going around 20kph faster with pitch foward than without. 45x compared to 47x. And xavier is right, the dpad overides the analog stick when you need to pitch up.
Jabberjaw, check my thread about pitch speeds here: http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6602
It's 17kph boost, btw.
Apologies for the slow response time :)
I 100% agree that WOHD has affected participation in Pure/Pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Task
IMHO, though, jaytech (achieved via human effort or tape) and 333 mHz (achieved via CFW) have really hurt the PSP Wipeout games as well. These two factors are related in that they (arguably) improve the in-game experience for racers (better framerate, ship response and handling) while requiring some simple modification to the PSP hardware. Some gamers see jaytech and 333 mHz as a "grey area" because they provide benefits that a game developer quite possibly would have included in the original release if feasible and known at the time of original release.
I guess my claim that jaytech has hurt participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is based on three observations.
1. Posts of WOZ'ers in threads on the Pure/Pulse boards.
For an example, I would point to the aggravation expressed by pilots in learning that the PS2 version of Pulse permits jaytech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
The same sentiment pops up elsewhere, for example, in a recent thread praising the brilliance of PureQuote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunar
2. Removal of time records by WOZ members
Perusal of this thread and study of the Pure/Pulse time trial tables indicates that several WOZ'ers REMOVED THEIR RECORDS in response to jaytech and 333 mHz. Asayyeah alone pulled almost 500 of his records from the WOZ leaderboards-- I don't think he is included in Pulse records at all at this point.
3. Lower participation in Pure/Pulse time trial competition in comparison to WOHD, which has been on the market for less than one year
This is a very clear trend that no doubt reflects excitement that Sony has at last released a Wipeout game on a home console. The trend is so overwhelming and pervasive, however, that I suspect that it reflects the perception that competition on the PS3 is a more even playing field (i.e., no jaytech or CFW).
As an example, I would point to Metropia forward. On WOHD lap records, this track has >100 very competitive times for Phantom speeds on Connavar's record website. In contrast, in Pulse, there are only 11 lap records-- and many of the WOZ's best pilots have not submitted times, or have pulled their times.
It was good for Robb Foxx to express his opinion on jaytech, and "draw the line" on what he wants the record tables to represent. I know that many WOZ'ers have respected his decision (myself included) and avoided jaytech and CFW, at least for times submitted to WOZ tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Task
I don't think the issue is "resolved" however because as outlined above, participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is pretty weak at this point of time.
My sense is that nobody feels good about the situation:
1. Folks that want to use jaytech / 333 mHz and feel that they can't play Pure/Pulse in the manner that offers the best gameplay experience (and also have to endure insinuation of cheating);
2. Folks that do not want to use jaytech / 333 mHz but are suspicious that other racers are using these approaches to have a competitive advantage.
So I guess my question to Wipeout pilots is this-- what can be done to deal with jaytech (and 333 mHz) so that folks want to participate in time trialing in Pure/Pulse?
* Should we create split time trial tables, with one set of tables for no jaytech/333 mHz and another permitting jaytch/333 mHz? This is a strategy often used in other racing games with similar issues (snaking in F-zero and PRB in Mario Kart, for example).
* Should we focus on lap records at phantom speed, which may be less influenced by the performance advantage associated with jaytech / 333 mHz? In theory, laps, race and SR should be similarly effected-- but since laps are performed over and over and over to identify good lines, with the major limitation at phantom speed being to hit the perfect line and not hit walls, with no opponents to be shot by or to interfere with barrel rolls-- my guess is that lap time trialing would not be so strongly influenced. Maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by borell
HELL YES! :) In July I spent many hours playing Pulse, and set some new records. Now I am playing Pure, and am working on some TT'ing now. Let's do it!
P.S. One thing I should say is that in no way do I blame Jay (Task) for "jaytech," I am not picking on him at all. It was good detective work for him to identify the technique-- and if it hadn't been him, probably it would ultimately have been somebody else.
When the PSP came out it worked with a processor speed of 222Mhz. The first records were made that way! Around 1 year later there was a Firmware update and the PSP got a processor speed of 266 Mhz. And we all had to make new records for PURE.
Even at that time some pilots played with 333 Mhz and could not enter times here. Pulse came out together with the wipeout-game site. From that moment on there was a big split in the Wipeout-community. Pilots that stayed true to Wipeoutzone and the gentlemens agreement and pilots that played with CFW and later on also with Jaytech.
As you can see now there are so many names in the recordtables at wipeout-game and we know so many of them and why did they not put in their times right here, where they belong? Wipeoutzone is the first and most complete place there is for a Wipeout pilot.
Maybe because pilots feel that they have to do all the records twice like me. I also like the search for fastest possible times. CFW is one step too far for me, but I tested Jaytech on few tracks and uploaded them too on Wipeout-game.
Still, I do not like the split in the community and I wish there was a level playing field for Pure and Pulse like Wipeout-HD.
I tried to enter my records (No CFW / No Jaytech / PSP 1000 pregnant) into the wipeoutzone tables but the process is a bit complicated - or I'm just too stooOOoPid to now the way to do it. But I do want to enter my times... can somebody help / forward me an "idiots guide to entering records in wipeoutzone" please... I'm sorry, I just odn't want to mess up the boards on my first attempt and pissoff any Mods or TimeCops - their jobs are hard enough as it is without me causing havoc lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
You echo my sentiment perfectly, and probably everyone who ever owned the Pure/Pulse titles... thanks for your words of wisdon Mr Ice!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
I love the record-keeping simplicity of the original WO Trinity and wish it could come again, somehow including online racing in that simplicity. Think of that sort of solid workability, no lag, no respawns, no lost records and rankings, no necessary updates to firmware, no server downtime, no support sites disappearing cause the game ain't sellin' enough anymore...
......
[wakes up] Dammit!
Thanks for the historical perspective, Mad-Ice-- very helpful :)
One thing I have wondered is if Wipeout keeps track of TOO MANY racing records-- there are five speed classes and records for laps and races and single races. It requires real effort to replay all the game modes and speed classes and to upload the data to the tables.
I wonder if it would helpful if everybody could agree to focus on particular speed classes (phantom?) and one or two game modes (fastest lap + race time?) just to streamline things.
Joking aside, I agree with you :) Update-able firmware and game-specific patches are nifty-- and I certainly understand why hardware makers and game developers are pushing them now-- but it adds a whole new level of complication to competitive gameplay, especially for racing games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
I mean, the firmware-based bump to 266 mHz that Mad-Ice mentions-- that's something that past games never had to deal with. WOHD is even more complicated due to the numerous patches/updates that it has received.
On the positive side, the whole PAL vs. NTSC thing is becoming less problematic. Region lock-out + TV display differences + region-specific content was a huge pain-in-the-ass for competitive TT'ing.
You sly dog! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ACE-FLO
Seriously though, I was intimidated when I first entered my times on the website. It's ok though-- you can always delete times that are entered incorrectly-- and folks understand that there is a learning curve in using the system. I would try to upload one or a few times and see how it works, I bet you will be fine :)
I think you're seeing things way more complicated than what they actually are.
IMO competition is fair as long as you're driving the ship. The moment you're using external aid, that's where I have a problem (AR-Max, cheat code, controller mod, whatever).
Patches are ok, they're the official rules too. As long as everything falls within the rules, IMO it's ok. So yeah that 266Mhz should be no problem, everyone's got it as part of an official patch. 333Mhz however is available only with unofficial patch, so no, even if I use 333Mhz.
Also I don't understand why we should "agree" to race only in a few specific modes. The game allows choice, if you don't want to play that mode feel free to not do so... Why prevent others from entering their times if they are playing the modes you aren't playing...
It's the CFW that's not allowed on WZ records though, right? Not just CFW@333mhz?
As I understand it, I'm not allowed to enter CFW times, even if I set it to 100mhz.:lol
Somehow a quote just doesn't seem like a quote when you completely change the content. :g
Sure, I agree with this. I use OFW and fully manually control (no jaytech).Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkdrium777
My point is that there are lots of folks that use CFW or would prefer to use jaytech-- these folks aren't contributing to our record tables and as a result, there is very little activity. Have y'all looked at the Pulse tables recently? They are RIDICULOUSLY undersubscribed-- only a handful of active participants.
What can be done to change this? Personally, I would prefer that WOZ accommodate jaytech (with split tables or whatever) IF it increased participation in Pure/Pulse.
Let's look at this from the perspective of a busy gamer. There are five speed classes and three game modes on bunches of tracks-- about 60 between Pure and Pulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkdrium777
That equals 5 x 3 x 60 records to be entered... that's 900 total records... probably 6-8 HOURS of time to enter those records. Who the **** has time to do this ONCE, much less multiple times due to changes in firmware or improvement of racing lines? Heck, I play Pure/Pulse daily and I don't bother keeping track of anything except lap times.
Of course, there this nothing wrong with Wipeout games keeping track of many statistics, and of course folks are free to decide what they want to focus on.
My point is simply that the community *might* be better served by focusing on a smaller number of record types (speed classes, race modes, etc.) because it would thus be easier to generate good times and upload these in WOZ record table.
Apologies if I am stepping on any toes or whatever in writing these posts. I just would like to see time trial competition improve for the Wipeout games so that we can match that existing for other major racing franchises (F-zero, MK, GT) and am wondering out loud how this could happen :)
}hears crunching noises{ :g
Heh, I think you should get that hearing aid checked the next time you're at J.C. Penny's buying polyester shirts and AM radios :nod
:)
My ears are so sensitive that I hear the sounds of crushed toes.
I don't recall being in Penney's or buying polyester shirts in the last 30 years or so. Longer than that for AM. You've heard of those things? How old aRe you? ;)
I'm 37-- old enough to remember polyester and AM radio but not old enough to have much nostalgia for them, I guess.
Apologies for the age-ribbing-- I'm probably in the older 1/3 of the WOZ'ers so I figure I can make fun of one of my fellow members of the Wipeout Geriatrics League ;)
On your last legs, eh? So perhaps you actually nEEd that piece of tape to hold the pitch control in place? ;)
lol, I just turned 34 today, if I ever consider using a piece of tape on my psp in future, i'd have to give up playing wipeout... not happening lol
Some good posts here btw...
Heh, I think my wrists will give out before my fingers, so that tape isn't really gonna help with the ergonomics ;)
Too bad for the folks that favor jay tech, they could argue their case against age-discrimination!
ACE-FLOW, glad to meet a fellow thirty-something* gamer-- seems like there are a bunch of us here.
* look, Lance-- it's an 80's reference!
I think I watched one episode of that show.
-----------
Better ergonomics would help even the youngest gamers. Especially on the usually awkward portables.