Jay's Speed Mod

[Task]

But my main concern is that this issue seems to have killed interest in high-end Pure/Pulse competition.

Wait, what?
Where do you get this from?
I would imagine that HD and Fury are mostly responsible for any decline in Pure and/or Pulse racing.
I find it difficult to believe that a "pitching for speed" game mechanic is the cause of any serious reduction in player base.
The main reason I don't play Pulse is because I prefer Pure, and I've still got competition on those tables.

I don't think there will ever be consensus on whether jaytech is legitimate or not, based on the arguments that have occurred in this thread.

It's not legitimate at all, consensus is not required! Decision long ago reached, case closed. I'm not sure there was much in the way of argument, mostly lots of good discussion.

I actually think that the whole "pitch forward for increased acceleration" basic concept is pretty good, it's just that there's nothing in the game to account for the increase in wind drag due to not being pitched flat in the direction of travel. Aerodynamics aren't accounted for, maybe they will be next game. 8 )

[borell]

I have never even tried this mod. I like to set my records, and to beat my old times, without it. I agree with Jay, the wipeout games for the PS3 are probably what distracts people from playing pure and pulse (well, I guess that there is still some pulse multiplayer activity).

Frances, do you want some Pure TT? How about you Jay? Anyone else? I'm in!

[lunar]

I see where Frances is coming from. One reason I gave up with Pulse was because I like to play with a level playing field and Pulse has never been that for me. It was such a let down - all the hassle and complication over various issues after we had such great days with Pure. But then I never really liked Pulse either so maybe that is why I don`t play it.

With Pure we just played for the love of it - I found it impossible to play Pulse for the love of it because there was so much surrounding the game. And it wasn`t as good

[Task]

I'm definitely with you on that one lunar, I find Pure to just be a ton of fun, Pulse I just don't enjoy as much.

borell: I'm likely up for some Pure TT. I've mostly been attacking the SR records, so my TT records are likely very easy to beat. In that respect Pure is totally opposite from the other WO's I've enjoyed, usually I'm all over the TT and couldn't care less about the SR!

[Aeroracer]

does this speed mod thing apply to wipeout hd?

[Darkdrium777]

No. ..

[JABBERJAW]

pitch foward does not increase speed in wipeout hd. For the pulse pure, I did a little speed test on talon jct. By the time the ship hit the first wall, with a turbo start, the ship was going around 20kph faster with pitch foward than without. 45x compared to 47x. And xavier is right, the dpad overides the analog stick when you need to pitch up.

[Frances_Penfold]

Apologies for the slow response time

Wait, what? Where do you get this from? I would imagine that HD and Fury are mostly responsible for any decline in Pure and/or Pulse racing.

I 100% agree that WOHD has affected participation in Pure/Pulse.

IMHO, though, jaytech (achieved via human effort or tape) and 333 mHz (achieved via CFW) have really hurt the PSP Wipeout games as well. These two factors are related in that they (arguably) improve the in-game experience for racers (better framerate, ship response and handling) while requiring some simple modification to the PSP hardware. Some gamers see jaytech and 333 mHz as a "grey area" because they provide benefits that a game developer quite possibly would have included in the original release if feasible and known at the time of original release.


I guess my claim that jaytech has hurt participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is based on three observations.


1. Posts of WOZ'ers in threads on the Pure/Pulse boards.

For an example, I would point to the aggravation expressed by pilots in learning that the PS2 version of Pulse permits jaytech.

Well, there goes the planet !! That is too bad SL did not alter this. Thanks for answering those questions El Patas.

The bad thing about it is that it means "the auto-pitch mod" will still work (I think), resulting in unfair play, El Patas. But thanks again for the info.

The same sentiment pops up elsewhere, for example, in a recent thread praising the brilliance of Pure

Pure is my second favourite Wipeout because it gave me such a great time playing it. So many game design decisions in it are just totally right...

Jaytech kind of broke Pure for me though. My son did aswell when he thought the UMD disc itself had to be removed from the plastic casing before being put in the PSP.

2. Removal of time records by WOZ members

Perusal of this thread and study of the Pure/Pulse time trial tables indicates that several WOZ'ers REMOVED THEIR RECORDS in response to jaytech and 333 mHz. Asayyeah alone pulled almost 500 of his records from the WOZ leaderboards-- I don't think he is included in Pulse records at all at this point.


3. Lower participation in Pure/Pulse time trial competition in comparison to WOHD, which has been on the market for less than one year

This is a very clear trend that no doubt reflects excitement that Sony has at last released a Wipeout game on a home console. The trend is so overwhelming and pervasive, however, that I suspect that it reflects the perception that competition on the PS3 is a more even playing field (i.e., no jaytech or CFW).

As an example, I would point to Metropia forward. On WOHD lap records, this track has >100 very competitive times for Phantom speeds on Connavar's record website. In contrast, in Pulse, there are only 11 lap records-- and many of the WOZ's best pilots have not submitted times, or have pulled their times.

It's not legitimate at all, consensus is not required! Decision long ago reached, case closed. I'm not sure there was much in the way of argument, mostly lots of good discussion.

It was good for Robb Foxx to express his opinion on jaytech, and "draw the line" on what he wants the record tables to represent. I know that many WOZ'ers have respected his decision (myself included) and avoided jaytech and CFW, at least for times submitted to WOZ tables.

I don't think the issue is "resolved" however because as outlined above, participation in Pure/Pulse time trialing is pretty weak at this point of time.

My sense is that nobody feels good about the situation:

1. Folks that want to use jaytech / 333 mHz and feel that they can't play Pure/Pulse in the manner that offers the best gameplay experience (and also have to endure insinuation of cheating);

2. Folks that do not want to use jaytech / 333 mHz but are suspicious that other racers are using these approaches to have a competitive advantage.

So I guess my question to Wipeout pilots is this-- what can be done to deal with jaytech (and 333 mHz) so that folks want to participate in time trialing in Pure/Pulse?

* Should we create split time trial tables, with one set of tables for no jaytech/333 mHz and another permitting jaytch/333 mHz? This is a strategy often used in other racing games with similar issues (snaking in F-zero and PRB in Mario Kart, for example).

* Should we focus on lap records at phantom speed, which may be less influenced by the performance advantage associated with jaytech / 333 mHz? In theory, laps, race and SR should be similarly effected-- but since laps are performed over and over and over to identify good lines, with the major limitation at phantom speed being to hit the perfect line and not hit walls, with no opponents to be shot by or to interfere with barrel rolls-- my guess is that lap time trialing would not be so strongly influenced. Maybe?

I like to set my records, and to beat my old times, without it.

Frances, do you want some Pure TT? How about you Jay? Anyone else? I'm in!

HELL YES! In July I spent many hours playing Pulse, and set some new records. Now I am playing Pure, and am working on some TT'ing now. Let's do it!

P.S. One thing I should say is that in no way do I blame Jay (Task) for "jaytech," I am not picking on him at all. It was good detective work for him to identify the technique-- and if it hadn't been him, probably it would ultimately have been somebody else.

[Mad-Ice]

When the PSP came out it worked with a processor speed of 222Mhz. The first records were made that way! Around 1 year later there was a Firmware update and the PSP got a processor speed of 266 Mhz. And we all had to make new records for PURE.

Even at that time some pilots played with 333 Mhz and could not enter times here. Pulse came out together with the wipeout-game site. From that moment on there was a big split in the Wipeout-community. Pilots that stayed true to Wipeoutzone and the gentlemens agreement and pilots that played with CFW and later on also with Jaytech.

As you can see now there are so many names in the recordtables at wipeout-game and we know so many of them and why did they not put in their times right here, where they belong? Wipeoutzone is the first and most complete place there is for a Wipeout pilot.

Maybe because pilots feel that they have to do all the records twice like me. I also like the search for fastest possible times. CFW is one step too far for me, but I tested Jaytech on few tracks and uploaded them too on Wipeout-game.

Still, I do not like the split in the community and I wish there was a level playing field for Pure and Pulse like Wipeout-HD.

[ACE-FLO]

As you can see now there are so many names in the recordtables at wipeout-game and we know so many of them and why did they not put in their times right here, where they belong? Wipeoutzone is the first and most complete place there is for a Wipeout pilot.

I tried to enter my records (No CFW / No Jaytech / PSP 1000 pregnant) into the wipeoutzone tables but the process is a bit complicated - or I'm just too stooOOoPid to now the way to do it. But I do want to enter my times... can somebody help / forward me an "idiots guide to entering records in wipeoutzone" please... I'm sorry, I just odn't want to mess up the boards on my first attempt and pissoff any Mods or TimeCops - their jobs are hard enough as it is without me causing havoc lol

Still, I do not like the split in the community and I wish there was a level playing field for Pure and Pulse like Wipeout-HD.

You echo my sentiment perfectly, and probably everyone who ever owned the Pure/Pulse titles... thanks for your words of wisdon Mr Ice!

[Lance]

I love the record-keeping simplicity of the original WO Trinity and wish it could come again, somehow including online racing in that simplicity. Think of that sort of solid workability, no lag, no respawns, no lost records and rankings, no necessary updates to firmware, no server downtime, no support sites disappearing cause the game ain't sellin' enough anymore...

......

[wakes up] Dammit!

[Frances_Penfold]

Thanks for the historical perspective, Mad-Ice-- very helpful

One thing I have wondered is if Wipeout keeps track of TOO MANY racing records-- there are five speed classes and records for laps and races and single races. It requires real effort to replay all the game modes and speed classes and to upload the data to the tables.

I wonder if it would helpful if everybody could agree to focus on particular speed classes (phantom?) and one or two game modes (fastest lap + race time?) just to streamline things.

I am a crazy old man that misses the days of polyester, AM radio and pong!

Joking aside, I agree with you Update-able firmware and game-specific patches are nifty-- and I certainly understand why hardware makers and game developers are pushing them now-- but it adds a whole new level of complication to competitive gameplay, especially for racing games.

I mean, the firmware-based bump to 266 mHz that Mad-Ice mentions-- that's something that past games never had to deal with. WOHD is even more complicated due to the numerous patches/updates that it has received.

On the positive side, the whole PAL vs. NTSC thing is becoming less problematic. Region lock-out + TV display differences + region-specific content was a huge pain-in-the-ass for competitive TT'ing.

...PSP 1000 pregnant...

You sly dog!

Seriously though, I was intimidated when I first entered my times on the website. It's ok though-- you can always delete times that are entered incorrectly-- and folks understand that there is a learning curve in using the system. I would try to upload one or a few times and see how it works, I bet you will be fine

[Darkdrium777]

I think you're seeing things way more complicated than what they actually are.

IMO competition is fair as long as you're driving the ship. The moment you're using external aid, that's where I have a problem (AR-Max, cheat code, controller mod, whatever).
Patches are ok, they're the official rules too. As long as everything falls within the rules, IMO it's ok. So yeah that 266Mhz should be no problem, everyone's got it as part of an official patch. 333Mhz however is available only with unofficial patch, so no, even if I use 333Mhz.

Also I don't understand why we should "agree" to race only in a few specific modes. The game allows choice, if you don't want to play that mode feel free to not do so... Why prevent others from entering their times if they are playing the modes you aren't playing...