Ballistic NG - Wipeout fan project

[Xpand]

The camera system is identical, that's why I referred Wipeout 3. It's a quirk of the way the camera uses track points to place itself.

[amplificated]

Beautiful, thanks for the update!

skipping track intros

[aybe]

The camera system is identical, that's why I referred Wipeout 3. It's a quirk of the way the camera uses track points to place itself.

Would it be possible for you to explain how does BnG camera actually works ? I've been trying to understand its logic (for WXX) but well ... it's kinda hard to figure it out !

Thank you

[bigsnake]

Would it be possible for you to explain how does BnG camera actually works ? I've been trying to understand its logic (for WXX) but well ... it's kinda hard to figure it out !

Thank you

Here's the code for it http://pastebin.com/0XgBkbxL. And the configuration - https://i.gyazo.com/a8749bd3a859ee13...7cd9f67745.png

The concept is that you need to figure out the ships position relative to the center of the track and use that to offset it. The way I approached this at the time is by creating a gameobject that I can use as a transform to use transform.TransformPoint(shipPosition), though you can also achieve this with a bit of maths: Vector3.Scale(Vector3.One, (Quaternion.Inverse(sectionForward) * (shipPosition - sectionPosition))).

[aybe]

Thanks !

I think I will just copy/paste and get it to work then I'll try to understand the mechanics, if somehow I can't get it to work I'll try to model one out of the literal definition you gave,

I made a few ones but well, it's not as convincing as I expected:

- a cheap one with Vector3.SmoothDamp, simple and effective but damping is global

- a cheaper one, Mathf.Damp for each axis but orientation gets wrong

- a much better but tricky, ConfigurableJoint, lots of control and really convincing but then I concluded there is one external variable that must affect camera in the original game

- first one I did was to use incoming angle, sounded good but it is goes out of control

By the way, have you tried to project the ship transform with world's up like this:

                Quaternion rotation;
                switch (CamRotationMode)
                {
                    case CameraRotationMode.Ship:
                        rotation = transform.rotation;
                        break;
                    case CameraRotationMode.World:
                        rotation =
                            Quaternion.LookRotation(Vector3.ProjectOnPlane(transform.forward, Vector3.up), Vector3.up);
                        break;
                    default:
                        throw new ArgumentOutOfRangeException();
                }

                _shipCamera.transform.rotation
                    = Quaternion.Slerp(_shipCamera.transform.rotation, rotation, CamRotationRate);

Though it needs further tweaking to not lose sight of ship at times, it gives a very interesting speed effect and ones feels much more the Z axis of a track section.

Okay, I'm back to work ... thank you

[sl33py]

I joined this forum solely to say: although I really like the idea and the graphics and the music, I find this game completely uncontrollable regardless of what options I use, and whether I use keyboard or game pad (with analogue sticks).
The root problem is that whether you use kb or pad, if you press Left or Right for more than about a quarter of a second, it makes the ship turn ridiculously HARD in that direction, as if you'd press one of the shoulder brakes in one of the original Wipeout games (ie. it'll do pretty much a 90 degree turn at lower speeds, way more than usually needed).
I've tried every which way I can come up with, but got no joy. Is there something I can do to manually fiddle with how the steering model works? I'd dearly love to play the game, but it's just WAY too frustrating. I was able to play WO, WO2097 and W3O at the very hard levels but find myself wanting to throw the kb or pad out the window every time I think "just one more try".
The other aspect (and this would be less annoying if not for the first) is that this BNG seems to have the original WO collision model, where it would STOP you nearly completely on impact, vs the slightly more forgiving (and infinitely more fun) WO2097 version, where you could throw sparks on nearly every corner without coming to an abrupt HALT by mistake at the slightest bump or graze with the track wall.
I completely understand this game is FREE. It's just saddening that the control system would mar what is otherwise a fantastic looking/sounding game. The control model was what made WO so fun.
Is there anything I can do to enjoy playing this game? Thanks for any advice in advance!

[Meg.A.Byte]

If the turning speed is way too fast, have you tried ships with lower handling, or have you tried faster difficulties? I agree that in Toxic, the turning rate is very dramatic, but in faster modes like Spectre, the difference is noticable.

[amplificated]

I can play the game at the first two speed levels without too many difficulties, but other than that - no way. Given I had to get a top 6 time just to barely beat the AI on one track on the second lowest speed tier, with the crazy overpowered Barracuda, I get the feeling I'm not alone in this.

I agree - the handling is a little weird, and you get punished too hard for mistakes. I think, but I'm not entirely sure, it's in large part because it takes too long for your craft to change directions before it reaches maximum turn speed. Also, I'm convinced there are multiple corners on some tracks that are literally impossible to execute without taking your thumb off the accelerator, and that, to me, isn't really WipEout... and even though this isn't WipEout, it's a habit, and one that I liked. Might be just me not being good enough/not knowing the gameplay well enough; dunno. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the airbrake takes away too much forward momentum, but to expand on that: while I wouldn't mind the idea of using the hyperthrust to counter the effect as a gameplay element, there's a problem - the game is so punishing, you need that energy to live! =P - Even after the damage reduction from unavoidable mass ship collisions.

Re: ship turning acceleration & speed: it might be an idea to work on figuring out what you need. I doubt there's a corner in the game which requires the maximum turn speed, for example, so it's kind of a superfluous gameplay element. Likewise, as I've just mentioned, I think it would be beneficial to make those impossible corners possible by allowing your craft to turn as rapidly as necessary.

Since I tried out the Barracuda, I find it strange that you'd make a ship one that's clearly the best by so much. But it's not just that it's the best ship by far, it also handles so differently to e.g. the Tenrai, it's almost a different game.

Also, what's the deal with the handling rating? The Protonic, with a handling of 1, has much more in common with the handling of the Barracuda (10) than the Tenrai ( 8 ) - which in turn has more in common with the Mtech (10). Absolutely NFI what's going on here.

[bigsnake]

Regarding steering and acceleration, everything is already in place. Steering in lower speed classes will feel more sensitive because you don't have to steer for that long, you're going pretty slowly. For the most part you just have to tap the steering, especially on high handling ships. Also remember that a lot of the ships have a slow steering falloff, so you will continue rotating for a bit once you stop providing input, which can take some time to get used to. In terms of steering speed though, in lower speed classes you will never need to utilize the full speed that you can rotate but when you reach Spectre, even Halberd sometimes, there are a lot of corners that you can fly through utilizing the full rotation of your ship. Harpstone for example, you don't even need to use the airbrakes in Halberd and Spectre, you just need to keep turning into the corner.

The reason you're loosing so speed with the airbrakes is likely because you're relying on them too much. They do slow your ship down pretty quickly but if you're using a higher handling ship then you shouldn't really be getting to the point that you are really starting to come to a hault. For stats, they still need to be worked on and in the next update I've made some tweaks and also included a grip stat to help make smaller differences in handling easier, some ships including Protonic AG4 have been adjusted. Barracuda is also designed as a time-trial ship, hence the massive difference in stats. As of a recent update they also can't pickup weapons. There will be separate leaderboards for Barracuda in the future and it's also planned to have it blacklisted from multiplayer lobbies by default.

AI and wall collisions obviously still need work too as the AI can be a bit unforgiving on some tracks and their use of mines can be a bit unwieldy and sometimes you don't scrape the wall when it looks like you should be able to.

Would also like to mention multiplayer. I am currently waiting on Valve to enable lobbies for the game as for whatever reason free games have lobbies disabled and the only way to enable them is to ask Valve. Once that is done, getting multiplayer implemented through Steamworks will be a focal point for a while, will keep everyone updated with progress on that as it happens.

[amplificated]

I currently have the #2 time on Zephyr Ridge on Toxic, less than a second off the top spot. The last corner is AFAIK impossible to get through without hitting a wall if you keep holding the accelerator when using the Barracuda.

My complaint isn't that the steering feels sensitive, but in fact the opposite - it takes too long for your craft to shift its weight or however, not sure how to put it.

The airbrakes seem like they give you sideways momentum in the opposite direction of the side you're braking on in addition to slowing you down generally, which seems the opposite of intuition. Have a go of lining yourself up on Ishtar's jump, go straight, hold the right airbrake and you will end up left of the landing, falling off the track. Oh and yeah, that corner leading up to that jump is another of those impossible ones.

[Xpand]

The airbrakes seem like they give you sideways momentum in the opposite direction of the side you're braking on in addition to slowing you down generally, which seems the opposite of intuition...

Actually, Newton's first law would disagree with you. The airbrakes only add a torque to the ship. Torque itself doesn't affect the ship's linear momentum, what makes the ship move in the same direction is the engine, but since your initial velocity to that new direction is zero, the ship has to accelerate to effectively move in that new direction. This happens a lot in planes, that's why maneuvers like this and this work.

In any case, the reason the airbrakes do that is due to the game being based on the early wipeout games.

[amplificated]

Other than the claim about Newton disagreeing with me, I generally agree with you... but you didn't explain why the ship moves in the opposite direction the brakes are being applied to when the initial vector is straight, and I can't see it happening in those videos. In fact, the manoeuvres in both videos appear to have nothing to do with lateral movements of any kind...

For the record, the 1st law IIRC is that an object in motion will tend to stay in motion. So if I'm going straight, why do I go left when I turn right? I'm not following you here.

I haven't played the originals extensively, but I've played them a bit, and I feel a lot more comfortable after a few minutes in them than I do in BNG... and I haven't noticed this phenomenon there. I feel I can swing my craft around in WO3, but in BNG, I just don't have that amount of control in corners.

[Xpand]

Oh you mean when going straight, I thought you were talking about the drifting when turning.

I think that's just a programming quirk, but in fact it can also be physically explained by Newton's third law, but this will require some drawings to understand better, since it depends on the geometry of the airbrakes.

Attachment 10330
Attachment 10331

So, Newton's third law says that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. In this case the force the airbrake exerts on the air particles creates an opposite reaction force on the airbrake, and since that's connected to the ship, the ship feels the deceleration+a sideways push to the side opposite to the airbrake used.

The difference is that in the original Wipeouts using only the airbrakes made the ship turn to the desired direction albeit very slowly, but there was no sideways drift.

[amplificated]

You're reaching

Even if what you're showing in that diagram were the case, the direction the nose is pointing is not straight, the airbrake turns you right (if you're holding right ab) - so that momentum would shift rapidly in the direction you were originally heading, if it even existed at all. I'm not going to claim I'm an aerodynamics expert, and from my understanding it's a ****ing complex field, so I'm assuming none of us are.

I just feel the current setup is unintuitive. Check it out. Ramp on Ishtar.

[Xpand]

Before the rotation speed starts being noticeable, that's what will happen. How fast the ship starts turning while drifting depends a lot on its mass. So in heavier ships this is what you'll see happenning, pretty obviously. I'm certainly not reaching, I have at least a year's worth of fluid dynamics in my physics engineering degree
In any case, as the ship turns it will still drift sideways to the direction opposite to the airbrake being used. The aerodynamic drag force is very high at very high speeds (increases with the speed squared), so this effect will have the biggest impact just before the ship starts turning. It doesn't mean the force is constant during the use of the airbrake, but the first impulse is enough to send the ship drifting sideways a bit.

Of course, this is just an explanation to what would actually happen IRL. What happens in BNG is just a programming quirk on the physics engine.

[amplificated]

I forgot to add (tired), but I think you're forgetting that the accelerator is still being held all this time... so the ship is facing e.g. perpendicular to the track, and it's still going the opposite direction.

[Xpand]

Well yes, we're talking about a jet (thrust) engine, it doesn't have an immediate response to a change in direction, like a car. If you have an object moving, say, left, at a constant speed, and you add a thrust perpendicular to that direction, the object will start accelerating in that perpendicular direction BUT it maintains its momentum to the left regardless, Newton's first law.

[amplificated]

But we weren't heading left

[Xpand]

I don't understand what you mean. Plus I already said the ship behaviour in BNG is a programming quirk.

[amplificated]

Forgive me, it's 4am. Finally lost it I think. GG

And yeah, I always assumed it was a programming quirk. It's just one I don't have a particular fondness for! -_-