Barrel Rolls in HD

[RJ O'Connell]

Yes it can. If the ships drop off like the PS1 games and don't always bounce off the track surface.

But I'm cautiously optimistic this will be the last game we see BRs. Since this is the last known game in the series that's tied in with Pure or Pulse or both.

[DawnFireDragoon]

well they're in the game so talking about it seems a bit pointless, but i'd say as HD is a shiny version of the psp games which had them in to begin with then barrel rolls are fine. but for a new title get rid of them, go for the classic gameplay that made the series.

[Darkdrium777]

Go for the classic gameplay that made the series.

Truth right there. Accessibility to newcomers always comes at a price. I think we'll see how far this goes with WipEout HD, and I pray it won't become more accessible in the future.

[Frances_Penfold]

So how do barrel rolls make Wipeout easier?

I can definitely understand how longtime Wipeout fans may miss the physics of the earlier games-- but if anything barrel rolls make Wipeout harder and more complicated as there are more possible ways to complete a lap!

[RJ O'Connell]

Good point. Barrel Rolls were meant as a move for experts and so far there's been a lot of backlash by the people it was aimed for.

Without them I think the playing field would be much more even. At least until someone finds a faster line 'round the track.

[eLhabib]

Sorry to dig up this relatively old thread, but it fits best.
----------------------------

Now, that HD is here, I can definitely agree that BRs do destroy some of the fun in TTs and Speed Laps, especially on tracks where more than 2 BRs per lap are possible.

However, doing a lot of avalon (no weapons, for the uninformed) races, I found that BRs provide a very nice tactical element. If you have no way of replenishing your shield energy, you have to be very careful with your BR strategy in order not to blow up. I found it quite interesting that - depending who I was up against - I either did as many BRs as possible early in the race, to get away from the pack, and to have a big enough buffer to avoid people catching up should I make slight mistakes (always saving enough energy for an emergency BR, should things get tight), or not using any BRs at all at the beginning, because I felt confident I could keep up with the leader without doing BRs, even if he is doing them, and then boost away with a barrage of BRs when the leader has already used up his shield energy.

wow. long sentence.
what are your thoughts on this? I for one think BRs really add a nice tactical layer to avalon races.

[Asayyeah]

Agree with you Martin

[Amon]

I think you're right when you speak of Avalon races.

But to to me that's the only "plus" of barrell rolls. To me Wipehout HD would have been a much better game without them.

They have no sense in a logical way. How can a ship accelerate doing them ?

The control metod implemented to execute them is quite poor. Sometimes it does not work at all, and when it works it's really difficult to mantain ship direction.

They take away from piloting skill. Now it's more important to search for places to execute them, instead of searching for a better lin into a corner.

[rushin]

half the time trial and speed laps are pointless for me because i will only use off big jumps and so on.

would still far rather they removed completely but wont happen, so holding out hope for an on/off option and seperated leaderboards.

[Flashback Jack]

Good point. Barrel Rolls were meant as a move for experts and so far there's been a lot of backlash by the people it was aimed for.

No backlash from me whatsoever, personally, if I'm considered an "expert." The distinction is more subtle than the common argument that they ruin or otherwise spoil the game, and it's one of ability or lack thereof, but nobody wishes to openly admit this. I'm pretty sure there'd be no debate if there were nobody who had difficulty executing them, but I think we've -- I've beaten that horse down good.

Trust me, I've been down the road of barrel roll hate, though for a few split seconds at a time. I cuss silently when I can't pull them off on my stone stiff Sixxasis controller. That to me is a direct experience of the larger issue of why so many regard barrel rolls with such venom. I simply can't think of any other logical reason. The difference however is that on the next barrel roll attempt, I try a different means of pulling them off, and it usually amounts to adjusting my grip slightly differently. Net result? Decreasing amounts of cussing, and increasing amounts of barrel roll acceptance.

And of course, there'll be those who wish to argue against barrel rolls because they aren't plausible from a realistic standpoint. Arcade racer, not simulation -- remember this. Wipeout is strictly an exercise in futuristic fantasy, and in the context of fantasy, I believe it was RJ O'Connel who described it best -- his description of the ships' onboard computers rewarding the pilot with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics makes it very plausible in that context.

- F

[lunar]

I do agree with you 100%, Martin.

[Amon]

No backlash from me whatsoever, personally, if I'm considered an "expert." The distinction is more subtle than the common argument that they ruin or otherwise spoil the game, and it's one of ability or lack thereof, but nobody wishes to openly admit this. I'm pretty sure there'd be no debate if there were nobody who had difficulty executing them, but I think we've -- I've beaten that horse down good.

Trust me, I've been down the road of barrel roll hate, though for a few split seconds at a time. I cuss silently when I can't pull them off on my stone stiff Sixxasis controller. That to me is a direct experience of the larger issue of why so many regard barrel rolls with such venom. I simply can't think of any other logical reason. The difference however is that on the next barrel roll attempt, I try a different means of pulling them off, and it usually amounts to adjusting my grip slightly differently. Net result? Decreasing amounts of cussing, and increasing amounts of barrel roll acceptance.

And of course, there'll be those who wish to argue against barrel rolls because they aren't plausible from a realistic standpoint. Arcade racer, not simulation -- remember this. Wipeout is strictly an exercise in futuristic fantasy, and in the context of fantasy, I believe it was RJ O'Connel who described it best -- his description of the ships' onboard computers rewarding the pilot with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics makes it very plausible in that context.

- F

Bad post imo. First, if you think that people don't like barrell rolls only because they're not good at them, this only show your argument. You defend barrell rolls only because you're good at them, no other reason.

Second, You think it's an arcade racer. Others think it's science fiction like, simulation of what could be racing in the future.

And speaking of that, "ships computers that reward pilots with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics" ?

Plausible that ?

[Flashback Jack]

First, if you think that people don't like barrell rolls only because they're not good at them, this only show your argument.

If you're against barrel rolls, offer your argument as to why, and convince me it doesn't boil down to ability one way or the other.

I could take a sampling of players who have zero difficulty executing barrel rolls and ask them what beef, if any, they have with them. Probably little to none if they speak relatively. That's what this argument is about: relative experience, relative ability (by whatever consequence -- preference for analog included) and not the object of game or game mechanics.

I have been on both sides of the barrel roll argument. When I started playing Pure, I started on the analog nub and quickly converted to the direction pad. Rest assured that I slaved for months attempting to find a perfect method for executing them -- I broke no less than three PSP direction pads in the process. Through experience, I know the hardship of not being able to execute a barrel roll, but I also recognize one thing -- the game isn't to blame, as easy as it is to level the accusation at it. At this very moment I'm going through a smaller version of that process with HD because the Sixaxxis controller is demonically stiff. The last thing I wish to do is write off the whole idea of barrel rolls because my controller kicks my ass.

I've said it before, but barrel rolls are not the problem.

And speaking of that, "ships computers that reward pilots with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics" ?

Plausible that ?

Within the context of fantasy:

Originally Posted by FX300 League Rules and Regulations
Section 12.1 - "Flair" rewards
As per the decision of the FX300 proposal meeting #12783 (Discussions on raising attendance #57 - Possible methods of rewarding pilots for crowd-pleasing actions) any pilot successfully executing arial acrobatics while being the only craft in a 255m stretch of track (with at least 85m clear in either direction) will be rewarded by the onboard weapon system with a standard "turbo" upon succesfully landing said stunt.
Addendum A: Due to this benefit not being powered by the standard weapon activation system (which is seperate from the flair reward monitoring system)a seperate power source was required and the shield energy system was used.

- F

[Rapier Racer]

...and when it works it's really difficult to mantain ship direction...They take away from piloting skill.

No one else found that statement ironic?

After careful consideration I think I'd rather not have any boost system, look at Fort Gale black thats three barrel rolls in a row on that stupid long corner I have no choice but to execute if I want any chance of winning against another good player and that is just far to big a drain on shields.

HD doesn't seem so bad I'm not sure if theres any place to execute 3 BRs in a row since I don't particular care to go looking for the spots. I'd be aiming to kill anyone I notice pulling off two or more in quick succession what a huge chunk of sheild that drains, come to daddy.

They have no sense in a logical way. How can a ship accelerate doing them ?

I've said this once and I'll say it again, how does a floating ship flying over a glowing square in the ground and then receiving a weapon for doing so make any logical sense? How does a Quake make logical sense? Speed pads? Oh look a big glowing arrow that somehow pushes you forward..

[love9sick]

I don't like BRs. It adds a tactic to the race that I don't like. It should be about cutting corners and taking speed pads...not trying to find any form of elevation just for some boost.

[Flashback Jack]

HD doesn't seem so bad I'm not sure if theres any place to execute 3 BRs in a row..

Anulpha Pass, pretty much. At least a few people demonstrated it in various Youtube videos while showing techniques for beating the Zico trophy.

You can also barrel roll three times on Ubermall if you're lucky. Twice on the bump, land and hop the chicane, barrel roll once more.

I don't like BRs. It adds a tactic to the race that I don't like. It should be about cutting corners and taking speed pads...not trying to find any form of elevation just for some boost.

The ultimate lap includes a combination of barrel rolls and perfect lines in addition to hitting as much speed pads as possible -- in most cases, no one element can be neglected if a person expects to clinch a world record.

- F

[xEik]

I wish you would stop confronting people who don't like barrel rolls.
It's getting old already. Some people will like them and some won't. Nobody argues that it takes skill to pull them. It's just that some people think that they are a chore and therefore don't add to the fun (the reason why most people play games is having fun, not having a world record).

[infoxicated]

If you're against barrel rolls, offer your argument as to why, and convince me it doesn't boil down to ability one way or the other.

You know what?

I am sick of your ****.

You are seriously ****ing full of yourself - I dont think we've ever had anyone so pompous on this board. I actually cannot believe that you could be so far up your own asshole that you are suggesting the reason people don't like barrel rolls is because they cant do them.

Because you can do them.

Because you're great.

SO YOU KEEP ****ING TELLING US.

I could waste the time pointing out all the wrong in your self congratulatory, willy waving festival of self love.

Or I could just ban you for being so ****ing great.

Hmmm. Tough one.

...yes yes - I know what you're thinking - I'm picking on you because I don't like barrel rolls.

But dont think that.

It's really because you're a wanker and I've had enough of the way you speak to people on here.

[leungbok]

I make part of the people (a few it seems) who thinks br add fun to the game.
It's cool to have several ways of playing wipeout. Searching for nice trajectories without br, searching for nice trajectories with br. I like also sideshifting, it another move available to create his own way of racing. What i don't understand is that people are blaming br because it makes the TT and sl less interesting. So, they play for breaking records and not for fun. There was a big disagreement about "jay's mod" on psp. Some were saying it was cheating. Ok, and now with HD, no unfair "speed mod" or cfw. So, br are the new excuse ?

[eLhabib]

Yes, I do play TTs and Speed Laps for records. Breaking records is the fun in TTs and Speed Laps, innit? Non-record-related fun is drawn from Single Races and Online, for me.

And yes, I think BRs take away from the TT fun. Not because I can't pull them off (I'm getting to a point where it works pretty consistently), but rather because I don't like the different line I need to take for a BR. It just doesn't feel like a racing line. More like slopestyle...