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Thread: Why is Wipeout Fusion hated

  1. #1

    Question Why is Wipeout Fusion hated

    It's an awesome game, love the handling over Wip3out's floatiness (but I only ever played two ships on the demo, Goteki 45 and Feisar) and the weird handling on Pulse (only played Feisar). I'm fine with the upgrade system. The soundtrack is awesome (beats Pulse) and the race day atmosphere is spot on with how you see the ships make it to the starting grid. I like the weapons focused racing, because you can get some great races of attrition and when you make it to the end of those and see how many eliminations you got it feels like an achievement. It felt like a proper event (although it lacked gaps to the other racers). Also, was lurking these forums and someone pointed out something I had begun to notice, there's an actual pecking order on the grid. Xios, Pirhana and a team I can't remember always seem to be at the sharp end of the grid (I noticed I seemed to always be fighting them for first place) or I'd be up against Tigron all the time in my upgraded Feisar. Also, playing Pulse and having only 8 races isn't doing it for me, give me 16 racers for a more full grid any day.

    I don't have a PS3 or my PS2 anymore (I emulate the PS2 and PS1 Wipeouts) so I can't compare to Wipeout HD or Fury.

    I got into Wipeout when I got a PS1. There was a demo disc that came with it and it had the Wip3out demo and I thought this is awesome, so I played it endlessly. When I got wind of Fusion I bought it and loved, then I traded it, then I missed it and bought it again pre-owned. Got 100% on everything but Zone if I remember right, then my PS2 failed, years later built a PC and found it could emulate PS2 really well so I found the ISO for Fusion and it was like old times

    So, yeah, why is Fusion hated?

    EDIT: How'd I forget the bloodthirsty AI. Made it better
    Last edited by Goteki; 28th June 2015 at 03:53 PM.

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    I liked this game too, my favorite part was the gritty feel to it. It gets your heart pounding.

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    I only played Fusion for about 2 hours but that was enough for me.

    I can't exactly say why I didn't like it, only that it did not feel as though I was playing a Wipeout game, the handling was rather clunky and I hated the track design. I'm sure others have more profound reasons as to why they didn't like Fusion but those are my mine

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    I've never had the oppertunity to play fusion, but I know just from looking at it that it would be my favorite WipEout. It looks fast, feels fast, intense, challenging and balanced.

    The new focus on combat was something the series had always needed in order to make shield energy actually make a difference in a race. In HD energy was almost worthless since absorbing could restore more than a weapon could deal. And more often than not you got weapons you didn't want at that moment and you would absorb them. In fusion you can't absorb, if you want to heal in fusion you have to go through the pit-stop and lose precious seconds of speed; punishing you for not being able to manage your health. The shield stat was what it always should have been: A risk versus reward stat. Do you dare risk having less energy in exchange for more preformance? Or will you play it safe and not risk elimination? HD this risk almost doesn't even exist, how many top players do you see using Qirex, Auri, or Triakis? not too many, most go with Ica, Hari, and Feisar, and it really upsets me how much attention those teams get because of the game's faulty balance between combat and speed. Speed is favored too much in HD in my opinion.
    Last edited by AGgamer; 4th July 2015 at 07:49 PM. Reason: spelling

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    I liked each individual game for what it uniquely was personally, but I always felt Fusion was the black sheep of the set. Although each game had it quirks, Fusion was the only one that had a radical change in the controls and physics compared to the rest of the titles.

    My first and biggest problem was the controls, especially the braking. In all the other games, braking was incremental, allowing for precise handling. Even in the PS1 titles, you could partially brake and maintain a smooth line. Fusion had the worst mechanics for braking imaginable. You tap on the brakes, and its almost as if nothing happens. The brake simply nudges your ship over a little bit, and doesn't really slow it down. You have to power tap the brakes repeatedly to get any kind of reliable precision braking, and even that felt loose. For me, this alone was enough to make it a noticeable inferior title. It didn't feel like a Wipeout game, the mechanics are just that different.

    Next, the track design, while not completely regrettable, didn't really have any memorable standouts. The track design was just not up to par with the rest of the series. Different sections of the track would open and close based on the track selection, which was kind of cool, but the tracks themselves felt uninspired. This was not a huge deal for me, rather a minor disappointment. I liked the addition of the open track sections that took you through mud and snow, and I even liked the concept of losing traction over the ice patches, but the overall clunky controls really shadowed this aspect of the game and was more of a nuisance than a challenge.

    Upgrading ships with credits... was AWESOME! I think I liked that part the most, and for me was the redeeming factor of the game. The ship choices were already unique, but the addition of upgrades made it better. While this did allow for an opportunity to truly customize your favorite ship, it also had the side effect of creating a ship hierarchy which I did NOT like. Essentially, you are given the Feisar at the beginning of the game, and told "this is a n00b ship, upgrade it a little to progress further." Later at the end of the game, you are essentially told "this is the Piranha, it is the best ship in this game by far, no contest." In all the other games, there wasn't an outright "best" ship. The ships were diverse in their handling so that the term "best" was objective. You could be just as quick in a ship with high top speed as a ship with good acceleration. In Fusion, there was an obvious progression and a vast inequality between the different ship classes when fully upgraded.

    Lastly, a lot of players that are fans likely started out playing Fusion, then moved on to Pulse, then to HD. So they don't have any comparison to the older PS1 titles. In my opinion, and speaking with a lot of other players that started in the PS1 days, they have similar feelings to me about the clunky controls. If you started with Fusion, you likely thought that the handling started out there, and only got better with Pulse, Pure, and finally HD. If you started out with the first Wipeout, you likely loved the controls through Wip3out, then hated Fusion because it was so odd.

    @AG: I'm curious which games you've played to say that speed is favored too much in HD. Speed has always been the main attraction. Weapons have historically been a way to slow down the competition, and this Eliminator nonsense is a fairly new thing. Wipeout has always been a combat racer, but speed has always been the main reason to race. The emphasis prior to HD was always racing, NOT elimination. I think that a lot of inexperienced players are attracted to Icaras, Harimau, and Feisar because they are easy to play without having to master. That doesn't mean there is a lack of balance between combat and speed, it just means there is a lack of experienced pilots you've met. I personally have a "top pilot" on my friend's list of each ship type. If "combat" is your thing, there is always Elimination but keep in mind a race is a race afterall, and all that matters in racing is getting across the finish line first.

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    I find it funny that most of the time people don't fully understand what I mean when I say 'balance.' For me, the shield stat is one that is nearly worthless in HD (I'm ignoring eliminator for this argument since I hate that mode and it almost entirely relies on shields rather than the speedy / agility stats). I say shields are worthless because of how rarely eliminations actually happen between experienced players. The shields should represent the odds that you could be eliminated in a race, even if you are experienced.

    Lets compare Auricom and Icaras. Auri straight up has worse stats than Ica, but has much more shield energy. In order for this exchange to be fair, shield needs to play a pivotal role in strategy: speed an risk elimination? or play it safe. But this risk really isn't here, in fact I think it's more likely that Auri will be eliminated than Ica. This is because of absorbing and a strategy I call "weapon-hoarding." Have you ever been in second? Right behind the lead pilot? A missile would be perfect! Maybe some rockets to really do some damage! But guess what: YOU HAVE NO WEAPONS. This speedy Icaras in front of you is eating up all the weapon pads on the track and absorbing them. If there was any damage on him, it's gone now. Auricom in the meantime is sitting back in second, low energy from rolling, trying to keep up with the Ica but it's energy is thin. I must slow down so it can get a weapon to heal. Fat load of help shields are now, huh? Of course I realize Auricom could do this to an Icaras, yes. But Icaras can naturally employ this strategy better since it has better stats.

    2097 / 64 did not have this problem (ignoring Piranha of course). Each of the four ships was unique in their stats and balanced. Shields meant something since damage from weapons and collisions was higher. Rather than trying to slowly weather someone down in HD, if you got into a serious fight with someone in 2097 / 64, one of you would probably be dying before the lap was out. What about absorbing? Never there! To heal you need to sacrifice your precious speed by going through the pits. High energy craft like Feisar were slower but safer from the very real risk of elimination. A risk that is almost non existant in HD.

    I hope I conveyed that a little bit better.

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    Ok, that makes much more sense. I can see your point, but I still think a lot of that has to do with the pilot's ability. Using the same comparison, Auricom vs. Icaras, to fully utilize each ships own unique play style, you have to learn how to pilot your craft. For most experienced pilots, the shield definitely is an important stat to consider. But that is still contingent on using each craft to the height of its personal stats. Icaras for me, has been my ship of choice. I (as well as a majority of other Icaras pilots) tend to absorb everything and only use defensive weapons to block key roll points. This best utilizes the Icaras's abilities because the poor shield strength will often destroy or cripple an Icaras. So with Icaras, I often have low ship energy because I am barrel rolling to maintain first so I don't get hit with any weapons. Auricom when used correctly, has a much higher survivability rate than Icaras, even when barrel rolling all the time. I typically either win, or I get eliminated when flying higher with Icaras. I've never had that happen with Auricom.

    Let's use the Goteki as another example. With high shields and high thrust, to effectively use a Goteki, you have to be aggressive, and rely on getting to the weapon pad first. After that, you have to constantly pummel other ships. This WRECKS an Icaras pilot's strategy, because Icaras has to rely on being nimble and quick. Same with Auricom. It has higher speed than most, and good shield strength. So to use it effectively, you would need to be semi-aggressive, but also use key roll points when possible. If you are just behind an Icaras, drop back enough to get the weapon pads. Wait for your opportunity and then strike.

    It isn't that things aren't balanced, it is just that a lot of pilots tend to assume that Icaras is the best because it is the fastest without considering the way the Icaras should ideally be handled. I get beat a lot by Mirage crafts, and even Feisar as an Icaras, but only because those pilots know what they are doing with that particular craft. Feisar MUST have super tight lines to be effective, and Mirage has a unique handling style that requires the pilot to be able to shift strategies based on position in the race. Icaras has its drawbacks because you really need to be in front to not be heckled. Icaras is quite vulnerable while trying to get to first.

    With Fusion, things were even worse at balance because there was a clear progression in ship stats. Each ship didn't have unique handling styles that outclassed another ship. Once you unlocked later ships, then first ships were all but useless.

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    That kind of strategic talk is the sort of talk I've always wanted to see in a WipEout, and I appreciate your effort to see the fine details of strategy in HD. But unfortunately I have to disagree. There is no reason to pick Qirex or Auri in a race when you could be using Ica, Hari, or Feisar. Once someone in first starts weapon hoarding second that's the race right there. Slowing down in order to negate weapon-hoarding is not a winning strategy, by sacrificing that much speed your opponent will vanish ahead of you. No 5 lap race is long enough to allow you to regain that much lost ground. If absorbing was not in the game I would agree, but it is, and you heal more damage than you take.

    Again I've never actually played Fusion, it just looks like my dream WipEout game: fast and using the Pitstop over Absorbing. Then again maybe I'm completely wrong and will get the chance to play it and will hate it. I have played 2097 / 64 though, and in my opinion it felt more balanced than HD, more exciting too since eliminations could happen quickly and easily if you made one good mistake. The difference between high and low shield energy also felt significantly different between ships.

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    Well, playing with the right people, I find a balance. I've been beaten before while beating my personal best record by 5 seconds on numerous occasions! For weapon hoarding problems in a room full of equally matched pilots, usually who starts in first wins, and it doesn't matter what ships are being raced. In general though, to get past a weapon hoarder, you have to change up tactics. You can go for a harder barrel roll that isn't typically in your safety range, or make sure to hit speed pads instead. If someone is right ahead of you, remember that you can pass them when they go for a weapon pad by hitting the speed pad instead. I do stand behind my comment about dropping back to hit a weapon pad though; it has won me a race more than a few times. You also have to remember "hidden stats" when comparing ship strengths and weaknesses.

    Each ship has its own hidden abilities or stats that are unique. There has been much debate on this topic, but to give an example: HD Icaras is more nimble in terms of handling than the Fury counterpart. True that it has less acceleration and handling on paper, but the actual mass of the ship is also factored in. Simply put, there are niche barrel rolls I can land with the HD that I can't with the Fury. The HD version also rolls slightly faster and is slighty easier to maintain lines (largely due to the handling stat). So while the Fury model handles better for last minute line corrections, the stiffer handling of the HD can be used to an advantage given your play style. That is just one example, and I don't know all the differences. Truth is, when you get to the level of ability where you've mastered a ship, it doesn't matter what ship it is. You win races because you play to a ship's strengths, and by being aware of other ships innate strengths. The actual track also holds some weight here. I get much better times on technical courses with a Feisar and a Harimau, or even an Assegai. You won't see those same ships winning as often on tracks like Moa Therma Reverse or Talon's Junction that are less technical and have longer straights. There are just so many variables to consider that you can't simply discredit one ship over the other. Once again, this is with the assumption that all pilots are equal. If you are losing to an Icaras pilot , it may just be that they are a better pilot than you.

    One last thing to consider too: if there were pit lanes, wouldn't the same problem exist or even be amplified? The ships with the highest top speed would outclass slower ships even with a pit lane. I guess your argument is that some ships with higher shields wouldn't need to stop as often, which is a thoughtful consideration, but then the higher shielded ships would have an unfair advantage, in which case the Piranha would easily outclass all other ships were that the case. But those entries in the series that included a pit lane didn't have ship energy differences enough to be much of a consideration. That is to say that the ship energy differences between an Icaras and a Piranha weren't enough to make much of a difference. Long story short, there is a balance, it is just among the top tier pilots. The level of ability for most average pilots isn't typically enough to embrace the subtle differences between the individual classes. It takes a good pilot to be able to find those differences and find a ship that matches their playstyle.

    As far as Fusion goes, I recommend playing it if you haven't (since that was the original point of the thread afterall). It has more of a Pod Racer type of feel to it than Wipeout in terms of handling and track design. It isn't as fast as HD at Phantom though. All of the end game challenges to me felt more like HD on Rapier. The handling will definitely take some getting used to, especially if you've recently played any other Wipeout games recently. You'll also quickly discover that once you start unlocking more ships, it is one of the least balanced entries in the series. Even fully upgraded, the Feisar has only minimal advantages in handling over the Piranha, and the Piranha far exceeds every other aspect. However due to the nature of purchasing upgrades and what not, when you finally get the "best" ships, you'll feel like you've earned them. You likely won't go back to using a different ship, but there is something to having that sense of accomplishment that doesn't exist in the other games (with the exception of WO3). It is like taking your favorite game franchise and radically altering it almost to the point of being a different game but at the same time being a unique and satisfying experience that you can't get from the rest of the series.

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    Fair enough. But I personally think that starting position shouldn't determine the result of a race, that doesn't really seem like a fair game. If combat had a slightly larger impact in races I think it would be better. Eliminations would happen more too and it would justify the huge amount of energy you regen from absorbing. WipEout isn't just a racing game with weapons, it's a racing game where you can literally blow up your opponents and it would be more fun to see those moments happen more often.

    bigsnake recently revealed the "hidden stats" behind the game to me. Basically the only factor that isn't relayed to us in the stat screen is traction. Feisar, Mirage, Harimau, Auricom, and Icaras have a traction stat of 100 and everyone else has varying degrees less, Furys all seem to have less traction as well. So that explains that.

    I see your point, but if Piranha has low handling and acceleration it would be balanced out by losing time in the corners. I believe from my experience with WipEout 2097 and 64 that the stats were more intense in their effect on the given stat. I haven't played it in a while but I remember the handling on Qirex being incomparable to Feisar. I remember Qirex having immensely more potent shields than AGS. Qirex had high speed and shield compared to the others but thats it. It was like an endurance challenge to get through the game with Qirex since it's handling and traction was so poor, and its speed didn't help the whole turning thing. You could collide with walls multiple times if you got disrupted by your opponents or if you were not skilled enough to use it. You would end up having to use the pits just as much as a low energy craft. Yes skill experience would help to nullify this effect, but since combat was such a constant threat in those early games, it would really hold anyone back from being too perfect at the game.

    One last thing: You say Icaras is your ship of choice. How many people do you know who's ship of choice is Qirex? Triakis? Anyone who prefers Piranha over Icaras? That answer alone should represent an inherent imbalance imo.

    As for keeping this thread on topic with Fusion, I think the game has a great sense of speed, just looking at how fast the scenery fly by makes it all worth it to me. I'm not sure how you can say it feels like Rapier because it looks so fast. Do you mean it's as easy as HD's Rapier?
    Last edited by AGgamer; 8th July 2015 at 04:37 AM.

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    Rapier Racer: Assegai/Qirex, WeedJunky: Mirage, lizEth17: Feisar, MurcielgaoMLRZ: Feisar, Knux_Chaotix: Goteki 45, theconzio: Harimau/AG Systems, SKRUFFEM: Piranha, Apple-Guy-Cipher: Feisar/Harimau, Pixiewonders: Triakis... Just to name a few. I have no problem finding skilled pilots that aren't Icaras. I do see a lot of "n00b" pilots in Icaras and Feisar but that doesn't mean there is an imbalance. It just merely means that most people view the handling and speed stats as more important for whatever reason they pick up the game. I stand by my point: if you find the game unbalanced, you are either not that good, or you don't play with equally skilled pilots. Given the current state of the online play these days, the latter is probably the most common reason people may find it unbalanced.

    Is there an over-saturation of Icaras pilots? Yes. Does this mean WOHD is unbalanced? No. I chose Icaras for one reason: I hate Elimination, I hate using weapons, and I barrel roll whenever I can every time I can. That is what Icaras excels at. Since you only need ship energy to roll if you can get away, this is the ideal strategy for Icaras. Obviously other ship don't share the same ideal tactic, and require the use of weapons to excel. Thing is, when used correctly, the Icaras is a very fragile ship, often one missile assault away from elimination. As I said earlier, I win or I get eliminated. Now using the Triakis for example, you still take 15 energy for a barrel roll, but when you get into one-shot missile range for an Icaras, you would easily withstand it in a Triakis. Triakis rolls about as fast as Fury Icaras does and has more rear end thrust which helps on uphill turns where as Icaras has more of a central-back center of gravity making hill climbing more tedious.

    The hidden stats aren't just related to traction either. It often deals with a ship's sense of gravity and mass as well as collision physics. Ever tried ramming a Triakis in an Icaras? Ever notice how the Auricom handles more like an American muscle car than a Ferrari? Some of the hidden stats are not as easily noticed while others are. One thing I have noticed about the ships with better shields is that they also recover faster from impacts and weapon impacts. While they don't outright tell you this in the stats, it is implied with the shield strength stat.

    True enough that Wipeout isn't just a racing game, but it is still a racing game first and foremost. The dev's didn't intend for weapons to specifically be used to eliminate each other rather change the tide of a race by slowing down and disabling opponents. This is why the shield stat IS important and why I feel there is a balance. Once again though, what makes a game like this balanced is when people play to the ships respected strengths that are all equally matched. Just because you have a lobby full of Icaras ships with one Triakis doesn't make the game unbalanced. It just means that there is a better chance an Icaras will win due to sheer numbers (if everyone is equally matched).

    The only unbalanced thing I might can say is that Auricom handles and feels like an inferior version of the Qirex and the EGX feels like a complete failure of a ship that doesn't really excel at any one thing in particular. However I will say that I don't have much experience with either of these ships so it isn't an unbiased opinion.

    Fusion makes no attempt at balance, but the way you proceed through the various leagues and upgrade your ship it doesn't matter and since there is no online play, balance likely wasn't the focus for the game. This may in fact be the reason some dislike it actually no that I think about it. The end game Piranha essentially has a max stat at everything, and is clearly the best ship to use.

    As far as the speed is concerned, it does appear faster maybe in videos, but you'll also notice considerably wider tracks. It feels a lot like F-Zero did, where the speed was outweighed by wider tracks and far less punishing technical tracks. Some find this appealing. I personally am indifferent. There are not speed classes in Fusion, rather upgrades you make scale the other ship's ai to match. So you might be going faster, but the tracks are so much wider that it doesn't really feel like it. Additionally, F-Zero had almost no technical tracks. Fusion sort of follow this pattern in that most of the tracks are more open feeling.

    When max upgraded, I find the game feels similar to a Rapier race with skilled Ai.

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    Still though, Icaras, Harimau and Feisar are a bit too common (AGS is up there too). I just wish there was more color out there. The difference in damage between the Icaras and triakis is more underwhelming than you might think, Triakis takes 100% from everything and Icaras takes 115%. So a 20% hit to tri is 23% to ica. Yes it adds up, but to what? Nothing one extra absorb can't fix (which is what Icaras is going to be doing anyways). Handling seems to have the largest effect on stats, and speed has the least, with Ica having only 15 more kph over the HD Feisar in all classes (in Phantom class this difference seems nearly worthless). I would also say that the Turbo is a tad too common of an item, it's clearly the best one for winning races. But I see your points, and I hope you can see mine.

    I never said I wasn't a skilled player. I've been playing HD since 2009 and I have at least top 100 in all the Phantom class speed laps, time trials and zone events. I would hope that makes me at least minimally decent. I race with Maciek sometimes and he seems to be about same level as me. (Though I can never catch him on Sol 2, he knows something I don't)

    I personally prefer to use Auricom purely for the fact that it's the same team Arial Tetsuo was originally on. But if auri isn't helping me win I'll quickly switch to Harimau or Feisar. I think I've since mastered the Auricom and I think it's safe to say it is not an inferior Qirex. Qirex has drastically worse traction and is much harder to control with accuracy despite it's faster turning arc, so saying Auri is inferior isn't really fair. I also used EGX for a long time and... yeah... it's worthless. Just use Goteki. If the EGX's stats were 90/90/75/70 it would be a viable option over Goteki, it would be a ship with a reliable high top-speed but no real handling or defense. But as it stands 5 base speed is not a fair trade of 10 acceleration and 10 shield.

    I do think it's possible to have technical courses in a fast racing game like fusion, all you would need is the same physics as 2097 and then scale up the speed and width of the track respectively. Most people say "a wider track makes it too easy" but they miss the point, I'm saying it would still be difficult because the speed has been scaled too. FZero has over done the width of the track to making it pretty simple to avoid the walls. Not to mention that FZero machines have perfect traction as if they were connected to a rail on the ground where WipEout ships slide as if they were actually flying. If you can imagine an FZero game with WipEout traction, air time, and slightly more narrow tracks, you would have what I'm talking about. It would be WipEout but with an amplified sense if speed. I can only assume Fusion must have failed to present this.

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    Yes, you are correct in your assumption that Fusion failed to present that amplified sense of speed. Now don't get me wrong here, I personally liked Fusion. There were certain elements in it that I really wish had made it to later iterations such as the RPG leveling and using cash to buy ship upgrades. I just don't want you to get the wrong idea of Fusion. It isn't a bad game. It is just so different in handling from the other games that it hardly feels like Wipeout. Wipeout is so technical that you need that quick responsive handling to make it feel like a Wipeout game. All I'm saying is that Fusion didn't have that. The controls were much more stiff, and when combined with the larger wider courses, it really does feel alien to what you might be used to in a Wipeout game. For Fusion, the ships do have a "heavier" feel to them, and they almost feel glued to the track, except on patches of snow and dirt in which the handling is just wtf all around. But I imagine in a read world AG race, any track segment that didn't have a solid surface would have that effect, so you can't blame them for trying something different in Fusion. Once again though, I would recommend owning all of the titles and just understanding that Fusion is something different and not necessarily to be compared to the other games in the series. In the US, the only Wipeout game actually released on the PS2 was Fusion, and it didn't have the mass following that Wipeout XL, Wip3out, or HF/Fury had. It was different, it was the oddball, it was to some: the black sheep.

    As far as everything else goes, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a sense of balance when I race the elites on my friends list. I see lobbies full of new/novice pilots that all chose Icaras or Feisar, but I see very few people who I haven't already added that know how to truly race with an Icaras or a Feisar. I meant no offense, and I certainly wouldn't want to insinuate that you were an inexperienced pilot without even racing with you. However that being said, if all of your top records are in SL, TT, and Zone, then I don't know how balance relates at all seeing as how Zone doesn't matter, and SL and TT world records are all owned by Icaras pilots (you have to admit it is the best ship for those modes, and I think there is little argument because the WR times are often separated by 0.5 seconds or so). There are a few records held by Feisar and Harimau too, but in general SL and TT modes don't benefit ships that have exceptional shield stats over speed. It is why you have to beat Zico in a Piranha: it is faster that all other ships except Icaras. Speed wins SL and TT WR's; racing lines win Zone WR's; Reflexes win WR for Detonator; and a combination of all these things wins normal races and each ship has a unique play style, or at least I would like to argue that the developers intended it that way. In short, balance doesn't matter for solo TT or SL play and thus shouldn't be counted in the discussion.

    I can understand having team loyalty based on past experiences, but HD truly allows you to find your own unique play style and find a ship that matches that. My favorite ship in Wip3out was Assegai. I quickly realized however that it just wasn't the ship for me for HD, so I switched to the ship that best suited how I race which happened to be the Icaras HD, and that's HD as in HD vs Fury. I've known some ace Qirex pilots, and a few Auricom, but in general it seems that the Auricom is the only ship aside from the EGX that just doesn't excel at anything in particular. So this is why I say that Auricom seems like an inferior version to Qirex: it handles similarly, but the Qirex edges out the Auricom in just about every way. At least that has been my experience, and admittedly I don't use the Auricom that much because it doesn't feel right to me much like the EGX doesn't feel right. Qirex doesn't feel right either, it just feels less not right than Auricom.

    One last thing. When you compare stats, you can't just assume verbatim that the numerical stats of a ship in the lobby screen tell the whole truth because they often don't. I'm not bragging, but I'm a pretty ace pilot (at least I used to be before I took a hiatus for a few months) with an Icaras. I have about 90 top 50 ranked records across the board, 1 WR for a Multiplayer race, and numerous other top 10's. I would rank myself easily in the top 10% based on wipeoutrankings.com averages. Let's just say I was pretty familiar with an Icaras cockpit. However I never tried many other ships before getting to that point as most pilots who spend that much time playing have a definite favorite ship and a possible alternate they are pretty good with. I switched to Harimau, and ultimately Feisar for Phantom, and it made a world of difference just for Phantom speed records. In otherwords, on Phantom, Icaras tends to be outclassed by ships that handle better due to the necessity of airbraking at higher speeds for certain tracks. I also briefly tried AG Systems and Goteki45 for the acceleration with some success. As is, all of my Phantom records are either Feisar or Harimau. After a while, it got to the point where I didn't care about the stats, and cared more about how a ship felt. Is having 100% handling really worth it on Venom? Is having 100% speed really worth it on Phantom? I just experimented around until I found a ship that handled how I wanted it to and stuck with it. You can't judge a ship by its stats. You can't judge a pilot by his/her ship choice. You can't judge a racing game by its pilots.

    These balances become more apparent at Rapier/Phantom because the tracks force you to race more technically than on slower speeds. Also remember that some tracks are not made for certain ships. For example: on Chenghou FWD or Sebenco FWD, Icaras is at a disadvantage over a ship like a Feisar. However on a track like Moa Therm Rev, the Feisar is at a significant disadvantage to an Icaras. Polar opposite tracks and polar opposite ships create that balance. Meanwhile, ships like Mirage, Assegai, Ag Systems and Qirex all have less polarizing abilities, and are more suited for extended play in a tournament because while they don't excel at either technical or speed tracks, they are good all around ships for a variety of different races and situations.

    If you went off of stats alone, then technically speaking (based on total amount of stat points) the order of ships best to worst would be the following:

    1. Feisar/Ag Systems - 330 each
    2. Qirex/Goteki45/Assegai/Mirage - 320 each
    3. Piranha/Triakis/EGX/Harimau/Auricom - 310 each
    4. Icaras - 300

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGgamer View Post
    The new focus on combat was something the series had always needed in order to make shield energy actually make a difference in a race. In HD energy was almost worthless since absorbing could restore more than a weapon could deal. And more often than not you got weapons you didn't want at that moment and you would absorb them. In fusion you can't absorb, if you want to heal in fusion you have to go through the pit-stop and lose precious seconds of speed; punishing you for not being able to manage your health. The shield stat was what it always should have been: A risk versus reward stat.
    Sure, in later installments you can eliminate someone in a race if enough hits were given but in races they were highly uncommon (for me at least).
    Last edited by Rovenami; 9th July 2015 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Quotation error fix

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    I'm on the same page as you on this one. I didn't feel like eliminations were common at all until HD/Fury. And even then they aren't common, rather more frequent than they used to be. Elminations are a part of the game, but it certainly isn't the focus. I personally still find the shield stat relevant.

    Additionally for HD, when you absorb, you get an amount of energy back based on the weapon. Absorbing a plasma bolt can restore as much as half of your ship energy while absorbing a leech beam restores less than 20%. Absorbing gives you close to the same amount of energy back as what the weapon could deal, and in most cases actually less. So the comment above: "In HD energy was almost worthless since absorbing could restore more than a weapon could deal" is false.

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    Just a small two cents on the energy and stuff. I think one of the toughest games to play online was Pure. I know it does not have full online but we fixed that with tunneling software and boom online Pure. Sheild mattered a lot here, the energy you got from absorbing was minimal at best even the plasma didn't offer a great deal compared to the damage it could do so you had to be sure you were making the right call when you chose to fire off those rockets. Playing it online every week I can tell you that eliminations were rife all over the place with up to 4 or 5 players being destroyed at a time! And I'm talking about skilled players. Anyone who played those sessions will tell you eliminations were very much alive and well before HD came along. I feel Wipeout Pure brought a large tactical element to the series one that is no longer present and one that meant despite the new absorb mechanic you were still at huge risk of death if you made the wrong call or took that risk which didn't quite pay off. No respawn either so you really had to choose wisely!

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    RR, yes, you`re right!, Pure`s online is a total different televish! (sp?) But imagine, me, asa, Rapier, mad-ice and Lunar! that year were awesome!

    Sorry for off topic!

    stevie

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    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    Fusion had the worst mechanics for braking imaginable. You tap on the brakes, and its almost as if nothing happens. For me, this alone was enough to make it a noticeable inferior title. It didn't feel like a Wipeout game, the mechanics are just that different.
    I just finished playing the game for the first time (on an emulator at decent speed). I don't know where your opinion about the air brakes come from. Tapping them while turning allows me to perform a smooth slide, useful for those semi-elevated corners. It's less straightforward, I know. But this feels more realistic imo because the ships don't look aerodynamic at all which can not explain, let say, Wipeout 3-style handling on these things. I guess this would also make the game too hard. Did you ever race on that oval prototype track on wipeout 3 SE? Accelerating beyond 600 kph would cause your ship to take of with the slightest steering mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    Next, the track design, while not completely regrettable, didn't really have any memorable standouts. The track design was just not up to par with the rest of the series. Different sections of the track would open and close based on the track selection, which was kind of cool, but the tracks themselves felt uninspired.
    I think most will agree that the huge drop on Florion height is one of the most memorable track sections of the whole series.
    Other than that, I think the overall design of the game needs to be taken into consideration, in which case all the track designs fit well as they form that dark atmosphere we all like from XL but with a more modern take on it. (I think Pure applies to it in some way as well but it added lots of sunlight). Both Fusion and Pure have the best looks in the way that they use 'normal' architectural designs, rather than the Star wars neon bleep bleep of Pulse and HD.

    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    In all the other games, there wasn't an outright "best" ship. The ships were diverse in their handling so that the term "best" was objective. You could be just as quick in a ship with high top speed as a ship with good acceleration. In Fusion, there was an obvious progression and a vast inequality between the different ship classes when fully upgraded.
    I felt disappointed about that too, but I discussed this already elsewhere on the forums. The point is that this is a realistic approach, (see real F1) as the guys with the most R&D (read: most money) can build the best racing vehicles, and are as such always better at anything (safe for reliability).

    That doesn't mean I find the game pure awesomeness at all times though. What I hate the most where the abrupt stops a ship would do if hit by anything from any direction. Especially later on when you unlock stuff like the gravity bomb. It's for the first time in the game's series that the AI is fully armed, but this just shows how overpowered some weapons are. (one of the races I did today ended in a mere three contenders reaching the finish line - not good)

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    Lot of good thoughts there. I want to make it clear that I loved this game. I far from hated it. I just felt on the whole, it wasn't up to the same level as the other WO games in the series. It is hard to compare it to the first one, simply because everything is hard to compare to the first one. the first Wipeout in a sense, has an immunity because without it, there would be no XL, wip3out, Pure, Pulse, or HD and 2048. It isn't bad at all, just different enough where if barely feels like a Wipeout title.

    Now depending on you PC control device, there may be no lag in the controls and an emulated version might work better. I can't personally say because I haven't tried it. But the actual PS2 Dvd-Rom version did have significant handling problems. I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that point because myself (and many others that have replied) found the controls to be the biggest difference from the other games. In Wip3out, the brakes are pseudo pressure sensitive. You can press for a slight reduction or hold for a sharp continuous curve. If was fluid in the same way HD is. Fusion didn't work the same way. The only way to get accurate turning was to multi-tap the brake. Many pilots didn't like the way that felt as they were used to the old mechanic which was more fluid and natural feeling as an airbrake. I don't care one bit for reality in a futuristic racer. In fact, the more realistic it is, the worse it is for me. If I wanted a realistic and un-fun driving experience, I would drive myself to the Dentist. I don't play Wipeout because it is a realistic game. I think most of us play it for the exact opposite reason. I did play all the prototypes on WO3, and while I'll admit they are stupid hard compared to the other tracks and way less forgiving, it just took practice and wasn't an effect of the handling mechanic. The track's texture mapping I felt was the real culprit there because depth perception was easy to get confused on with the solid textures and it was easy to get lost/confused.

    Now when I speak about the track design, you might have misinterpreted what I meant to say a little. Take HD as an example. You have tracks like Chenghou and Sebenco Climb which will live in fear for many pilots, and utter delight in others. The track design was superb for HD. Since Pulse had the original HD tracks, it gets a nod also (and it had some additional gems as well that didn't make it to HD). Wipeout 3 had memorable favorites like the Manor Top, and was the first to explore an inner city setting. Who can forget the first time the raced through the Jungle in XL? Or how stupid hard that metro station was. In general, I feel that the main problem was tied into the ship handling, because most of the tracks were much wider and to me felt more like F-Zero style tracks. There were some that had some excellent scenery, but for the most part when compared to the rest of the series, the tracks felt more generic. The graphics were awesome though. I liked racing through the jungle in particular, and Florion Heights almost had a Pod Racer feel to it. The graphic design was definitely on par with the rest of the series.

    Honestly, there is little balance between ships. But as I've stated before, I liked earning the best ship. It gave a clear goal to work towards, and I felt as though I had earned it. Part of the major discussion in this thread was over balance, so I only find it necessary to mention the lack of it in Fusion. However it was local multiplayer only, so this wasn't really an issue. As you've said, the obvious best R&D at the time of Fusion was with Piranaha. You are essentially a freelance pilot, and you change your ship loyalties through the game much like a real sponsorship would work. You'd have to outright beat the pilot of the best team to be able to race under their flag, and that is exactly what happens in Fusion with the challenge levels. That part I like. So while it is a bit disappointing that there is a sever lack of balance between ships, I can understand the reasoning for it, and it works for the story and play advancement motif, and there is a little balance with the cost of ship upgrades. For the same amount of credits, you can max out a Feisar or upgrade a Piranaha to about 30%. So if you only used the amount of money needed to max out the Feisar for upgrading on each ship, there would be a balance.
    Last edited by mannjon; 20th July 2015 at 03:58 PM.

  20. #20
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    Still a maxed out Piranha or Xios is way more OP than a maxed out FEISAR or van-Über.

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