Yes, understood. I still think it should be one team per nation. But I understand the intention to not unfairly exclude people, and a proposal such as yours seems a reasonable way to do this while not giving any one nation an advantage over others.
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Yes, understood. I still think it should be one team per nation. But I understand the intention to not unfairly exclude people, and a proposal such as yours seems a reasonable way to do this while not giving any one nation an advantage over others.
It is still 1 team per nation in DIVISION 1. Teams from DIVISION 2 can not earn more points then teams from DIVISION 1. So countries with only 1 team will have no disadvantages.
Well thought out Mad-Ice.
We need to set this in stone so there can be no argument. Do we do decide amongst our selves who is in which division or do we qualify.
We should act soon as this could still take ages to organize Perhaps EPSILON should have the final say as it's his baby.
We may never agree on everything between us all so there will have to be compromise along the way.
Thanks KGB, indeed it is EPSILON's baby! I think each country should be free to chose their way of qualifying!
ok.
Do we need to list all countrys intending to participate HERE, or do we join Epsilons group and organise it from there. ( I can think for myself normally :lol but would like the majority to agree where this is happening).
There were not many members in Epsilons group ( http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16 )last time i checked maybe people don't know whats happening yet.
@KGB1971 : It is not my baby ^^
I just propose a idea to create this Worldcup and create a logo, it is the Baby of all of you :=)
The Worldcup Group has been created last night so we have time to see in the futur the difference, I hope ^^ This group represent all pilots who wants to participate, to have all name with only 1 click.
if you want to organise it on this group Tell me, what do you think, Here or to the Worldcup Group ? (Question for all).
@Mad-Ice : I try my best to translate your post ^^
I find your Division Idea is Excellent but it make some problem too.
1- The country who have not several Team will be disadvantage. France - 3 minimum Team and another just one...
2- I'm agree with SaturnReturn, a Worldcup include the best National Wiper.
For example :
Division 1 : England Win, France loose
Division 2 : France Win, England loose
Divison 3 : France Win, England Loose
It means that the best team loose and they are saved by the other teams who are less strong.
Is it really representative of a World Cup?
it is a good concept to do this but is anybody agree with it ?
to conclude, your solution will play a maximum of pilots but unbalance countries have less pilots.
but maybe I misunderstood your post, my english is so catastrophic.........:blarg
i can appreciate only wanting the cream of the crop for each nation, but then we'll either need the same 4 players each game ( with real life guaranteed to interfere ) or we'll have reserve players sitting around doing nothing.
i think divisions will work only if everyone agrees..... im not certain on this, but i dont think many british / french players would willingly want to compete outside the top tier.
I made this rule, because I got the feeling from a lot of pilots that they wanted more teams per nation in the top League. To be honest, I only made this rule to satisfy everybody, but I'd rather not use this rule and would only want 1 team per nation in DIVISION 1 and that this DIVISION 1 will give the fastest Wipeout HD team of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
Eventhough my solution is having a maximum amount of pilots it will not unbalance countries with less pilots!Quote:
Originally Posted by EPSILON
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
Ok Made-Ice, this is my bad english translation :frown:
I think it is the only solution to have a REAL Worlcup on Wipeout HD. Off courses many pilots become substitutes but if I compare to Football, One team Represent the country but not all the best country Footballer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
Does anyone think it would be a good idea to have an "official" registration thread, e.g. for individuals to state they want to take part and which team they want to play for (with a deadline for registration)? Then someone can compile the countries and we can look at miscellaneous teams and so on. A lot of people have expressed interest already I know, bur several people have options for which country they could play for. In addition, a lot of us are probably assuming that certain people will take part but they might not be available. I know there are the social groups, but these are kind of hidden on the forum.
I just think until there is a definitive list of participants we may be getting ahead of ourselves a bit.
I hope this is fine with everyone.
Might as well start it off.
ENGLAND
kgb1971 ------ OLOuk ---------- Judas
Hellfire -------- Andybob35 ----- Peh-Hok
Greenix ------- Wellington ------ Axel
Amorbis ------- Lunar
FRANCE
EPSILON ------- Nyctalopian ------ Leungbok
Kanar ---------- Spoon56 -------- Asayyeah
Kaori ---------- Wotan998
Asymeel ------- Kingheim
SCOTLAND
Stin
Osama bin haydn ;)
PORTUGAL
Xtriko
CANADA
mjolnir74
Redscar
Darkdrium777
NETHERLANDS
Mad-ice
SaturnReturn
Luxoflux
AnErare
ANZAC
Blackwiggle
KIGO1987
djKyoto
trentdf
JAPAN
Aka-sho ------ suurenko
rerealm ------- ossama
Edelweiss ---- reach-big7
hn9354
U.S.A
TheFrostE
cerium
feisar31
LOUDandPROUD
ITALY
alterego
il_NIK
NORDIC
Tordmulen ------- Zoth-Ommog
Chaos80
JJPAP
Soccermums
Anyone interested post here and I'll update. It can be moved elsewhere if needs be.
How's this for an idea?
Each country to have one division 1 team who only plays the other countries division 1 teams.
If a country has too many players,rotate the players.
The countries like France ,England etc.
If a player plays in the first round of the division 1 round ,make it that they can't play in the next division 1 round,they can play in division 2 or 3.
Depending how many divisions each country has,they would have to play in each division before playing in division 1 again.
Likewise after playing in division 1 again,back through the lower divisions before again playing in Div 1.
Keep the divisions separate,you don't want a country with 4 or 5 players [only a division 1 team obviously] having to play another countries division 2 or 3 team.
What would be the point of that once it got to the knockout stages of the tournament?
Say there was an upset and one of the large nations division 1 teams got knocked out.
What are you going to do?
Say it's OK,they can still win the world cup because they still have Div 2 and 3 still in the tournament.
What would be the point of holding the W/Cup in the first place?
I don't see the points system working,mainly because of the sheer lopsided weight of numbers [racers] to some teams.
More division teams = more points it's as simple as that, no matter how you do the pointing system,the small teams just won't be competitive,and I don't think that's fair.
At Blackwiggle: I do not understand your post?
What do you mean with small teams?
The point system will work fine! Countries with more teams will not have an advantage.
Each DIVISION will have a winner seperately. DIVISION 1 will be having the World Wipeout HD winner. The best and fastest team of the world.
DIVISION 2 will have a seperate winner too, but not the world champion of course and the points won't be added to the DIVISION 1 team.
There will be no knockout stage, because all teams will race eachother. So all teams from DIVISION 1 will race against eachother.
Also all teams from DIVISION 2 will race against eachother. And so on...
@KGB1971 : Great, this is what I want, A List of Country Pilots to see in 5s the complete WorldCup Pilots Selection :+
For France you can register :
- Nyctalopian
- Spoon56
And I contact Kaori to have a list a Wipeout Arena Pilots who wants to come too ^^ (susch as Kingheim, Leungbok, Wotan, Expitarius and more) but don't register us, I want to have the confirmation before.
Good job KGB1971 :P
I know people can see a problem with multiple teams from one country. But i still think it is the easiest and most simple way to do it. With a little bit of thought I'm sure by using a knock out system we can eliminate the possibility of two teams from the same country meeting in the final.
What if say we had 4 groups of 3 teams.
Each team plays the other in group once.
8 races with weapons 8 without.
Highest points from these races automatically goes through to next round.
That would mean 4 would go through.
The two next highest points scores who didn't go through automatically would also qualify.
That would then mean we had 6 teams.
They are split into another two groups of 3.
(if one country had more than 1 team through, then they should be put together in a group).
10 races with, 10 without.
Highest and second highest points go through again automatically.
That would give us 4 teams.
(if one country had more than one team through, then they should be put together in semi-final).
12 races with, 12 without.
winners through to final.
The Final
All 16 tracks with weapons, 16 without.
What do you think?
I'm sure something like this could easily work with more teams if needs be.
If i could of drawn it out and put it on here then i would of done it, but i haven't a clue how to do that. Someone could maybe do it or tell me how.
Mind you we are still short of players and teams.
Hi All.
For Italy you can register 'alterego' (online 'alteregorr'), but I'm soooo lonely in this team! :(
I must/can call il_Nik, but inside the zone I don't know other Italian HD pilots....
read you soon
cdrom
ps I started TIF (The Italian Flyers) and inside the Zone the Team Italy, but as you can see, I'm the only member :(
The TIF is composed by Pure and Pulse Pilots for now.....I think...only me and il_Nik are the HD italian team. I must write some pm.....it's better..... ;)
alterego:
I have an Italian WOHD pilot that is very good on my friends list called LZRakaMAD.
I haven't seen him racing for a while [I think after he got Transcendence a few months ago he lost interest a bit],try shooting a friends request to him telling him he's needed for the world cup [he might have a few fellow countrymen that can help build a team Italy],and I'll message him saying that I know you from the Wipeoutzone.
MAD ICE: Well I must of read your original post suggesting the points system wrong,the way understood it the points from all of a countries divisions were going to be added together.
I'll reread it again and see if it sinks in this time.
At Blackwiggle: I edited my post again. I deleted one of the rules which made a vagueness. I think it is much more clear now and ready to go if everyone agrees? Page 8 of this thread.
At KGB: if you are using groups and a knockout system, some teams might face a very strong team in the first few races. They will not have a chance against other teams to score more points. If we will use my rules every fastest country team will have the same chances and races every other team. This way we really get a very clear picture about how fast teams are compared to eachother.
Mad-Ice's system works for me (in my head at least, I've not crunched any numbers on paper or anything). It seems like there is both the expilcit weighting that Mad-Ice mentions, and also the implicit weighting due to naturally having less teams in lower divisions. Less teams means less matches overall which means less points available. Therefore the scores for countries with teams in lower divisions will have a smaller effect and as such should only matter at all if the nations finishing first and second in Division 1 are extremely close on points at the end of it all (and both have teams in multiple divisions), which is how it should be.
If a nation with only 1 team in Division 1 finishes top, they win the World Cup.
This is on the basis that nations consider themselves to have multiple world class teams. That's a decision for each country/region to make itself.
That's how I understand it (I hope I'm not wrong or I will look sooooo stupid).
i am lonely as well :( i know there are more excellent USA Wipers other than me
Get INFAXSU and packetmons arses on to HD. They represent the US.
I've no problem with your idea Mad-ice, just suggesting another way, there are always seeded teams in competitions, which are normally designed to see the best teams through to the final. If that's fair or not, i don't know.
I would of thought this would of eradicated the problem of which players were in which division, it might be conceived as a lower class. I will use France as an example again. Could you pick four of them to be in the top division and leave the others out. there is a wealth of talent there that shouldn't be ignored. I'm saying this as an English man that i would be happy for France to have 4 teams in the comp and England to have 2.
Just an idea mate thats all. :lol
I'm getting the feeling that we should just decide between the few people posting here and everyone else will probably go along with whatever is decided. I hope. :paperbag
You can put me down for team England. I should be available whenever you need me.
I think both Mad-Ice's and KGB's ideas work great. Mad-Ice's idea of having multiple divisions will let everyone that wants to race be able to have a chance of competing in some form. Although the idea of knock out stages in some sort of final would work well, too. Teams with the most points were to compete in a knock out final somehow I don't know if I'm making much sense, but I'm trying to think of an idea of having the best of both ideas.
I'm certainly interested, although I'm also wary about committing to something long-term like this.
I'm afraid I don't fully understand Mad-Ice's proposed system; I think the idea of divisions could work, but in my opinion the World Cup should go to the Division 1 champions, period. A different trophy could be awarded to the team with the most points across all the divisions. I just don't believe those points should be considered too representative since we don't know how many people from each country will even be interested or able to race in the lower divisions. In other words, skill may not be the biggest factor in determining those additional points.
We should also keep in mind that (as in any FPS clan) each team will need to have reserve players available. There are a million reasons why someone might not be able to make a race. If we use a system with rounds then the replacement players could simply move up from the lower division for that round; of course those players probably shouldn't race in both divisions in the same round.
Not to raise yet another issue, but I take it all the races would be 8 players, 2 teams of 4 versus 4? If so that's OK with me, but I do wonder whether that would necessarily be the best way. After all, Wipeout is not exactly a team game like football. I don't know what those other country vs. country tournaments were like: is it every man for himself? I would hate to have to think twice about using a quake. ;)
To pick up on one of Feisar's points - I'd rather see 4 players per match. Close races between 8 players become a lag lottery IMO. Any 4 player races I've been in have seemed a lot fairer, still just as close, and generally more measured and tactical. But I'm sure that will be a hugely unpopular suggestion, and it's not so much the case for non-weapons races. If you did 2vs2 by splitting 4 man teams up between weapons races and non-weapons races then each country/team would have to make a tactical decision about who is the fastest and who are the best warriors. I like tactics!
So much to discuss/plan/agree etc.
I may be dead by the time we agree on this.:lol
At the moment there are only three teams capable of putting out a team.
I will repeat: leave a message here and i will update the list
Put me down for team AUNZ. I should be available on the weekends, just PM me in advance to inform me. But its going to get busy for me in a few weeks time. But ill always make time for a bit of Wipeout here and there.
Already entered you mate, you don't have a choice:lol
Ask your fellow countrymen if they want in please KIGO.
heres an idea, not saying its best, but its different -
Rather than 2 teams of 4 in a race, have 4 teams of 2. Nations with fewer players can then get involved.
Play a few tornies over x number of weeks, and the top 2 teams go through.
Nations with bigger numbers are split into teams of 2, and placed in the same group, guarenteeing only half will qualify from round 1 ( another way would be creating the 2 teams AT THE END of round 1 based on the top 4 positions - pos.1 & pos.2, pos.3 & pos.4 ).
this is the only method i could think of to include every player in every race, and to include rivalries wthin nations :g
Thats a pretty cool idea, teams of two.
Oh, add me for ANZAC, whatever.
Btw OBH, you better get your Head-to-Head Cup races done soon.
The world cup will go to the DIVISION 1 champion, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
Reserve player yes. After the qualifier rounds in every country we know who are the 4 or 8 or even 12 fastest pilots of a nation. We have to know in which order they are fast. Like from fastest number 1 pilot up onto number 12. So the reserve players for DIVISION 1 are the 2 fastest pilots from DIVISION 2. The reserve players for DIVISION 2 are the number 3 and 4 fastest pilots of DIVISION 1 and the 2 fastest pilots from DIVISION 3.
Still we will all be in this so called lag lottery! With 4 pilots a team who are earning points it will be so close and exiting to race. It will be really working like a team, helping each other, with using weapons or not at the right time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnReturn
I like your idea about 4 countries in a tour. 2 players from each country! Eventhough it would mean less strategy to use your weapons. If there are 3 other players from your country on the track, you really have to think twice about when to use your weapons or not! I really like that too. However if we do 2 pilots a team, we will have less races, but we can use a knockout system like KGB suggested and the Division system of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by osama bin haydn
Do we really need "divisions" as such? it doesnt give all pilots a fair chance (or any chance at all to be honest!!) at competing for the highest honors.
I thought we should all enter round 1 on a totally level playing field, but filter the slowest into their own knockout system afterwards. Quality players, from any nation, shouldnt need to sit out, or be entered into a lower division just because of the numbers.
At osama: All the pilots get a chance when they are racing to qualify for the fastest team for their own nation. If the fastest team of their nation is formed then they will fight for the highest honors. So every qualification is already part of the World Wipeout HD tournament 2009.
But anyway: I think we can discuss the rules untill the end of 2009, but we have to agree at one point in time. Maybe we have to make a pole on who's rules should be used?
I updated my rules on page 8.
I`m not really involved in this, but this is how it looks to me: In any other World Cup, be it football, rugby, cricket or synchronized swimming, a nation enters one team which is made up of its best available players in order to see which nation can field the strongest team. Surely the Wipeout World Cup should be the same. You don`t get France B or England C in any other world cup because it`s an elite competition. If you get B and C teams its not really a world cup designed to find the best players, it`s an international tournament. I think it`s up to each country to decide its own selection process via competition if necessary. That way everyone gets a chance to play if they want it, but world cups are for the best players or they aren`t world cups. It`s supposed to be elitist. I wouldn`t have a hope of making any England or UK team, but c`est la vie, that`s the nature of such a competition. If I want to make the team I know what I have to do. Anyway I think if people are going to have a world cup that`s the only logical way to do it.
I might try and find some Italian heritage though. I always cheer for the Azzuri in football if England aren`t involved. Rom, does this count me as Italian if you are short of pilots? ;)
I`d also like to add that complex rules and tournaments probably won`t work. In online competitions its hard enough just getting two teams together at the same time to play each other in a one-off contest, nevermind anything more complex. So a simple and "elite" world cup is more likely to actually work. :)
(SURE)Quote:
Originally Posted by lunar
I love English football (better than the italians one, like all of us surely know!).
And
You're WELCOME in Italy and into Italian Team!! Obviously...
I think I might struggle to get in the top four as well Lunar, that is why I'm frantically trying to find a way i can participate. :frown: :lol
In order to get the best pilots in each team we will have to decide amongst ourselves, which i don't have a problem with generally. As it stands at the moment though i wouldn't even say we have all of the ten best pilots in HD signed up for it, I'm trying to be pro-active and asking lots of people but there seems to be a slight reticence to come forward.
Maybe this World Cup as it stands won't get off the ground, perhaps it is best to just have teams of friends together, that way everyone who wants to play can. More of a clan type of thing.
We are not doing very well here are we. :lol
Mad-Ice: I really hope discussing the rules does not go on all year :brickwall. I thought we might of come to an agreement in the next week or so.
Hi all! Just my thoughts.. It should be the best 4 racers of each country. I know there some country's which have more than 4 racers, so they should decide amongst themselves who's in and who's out (mini tourney's if needed).
Best 4 players make the team and the rest become subs (granted some teams will have about 6-10 subs others just one or two) as im sure real-life events will take presidence.
@Team England: I would like to take part but i know that im not as consistent as i once was, thus greenix, wellyington should definitly be in. Im happy as a sub 4 the mo... although would love to win against a few country's/players (u know who u are :lol)
@Everyone else: Spread the word, IM, PSN etc. :nod
Well i have added you to the list Andybob35 now. EDIT: I have added all of team England. Hope you don't mind.
If we could all agree on the 4 pilots per country thing then that would be great. I will go with the flow. Everyone has their opinions which are all valid.
Who knows how to start a vote?
The 4 best pilots OR Multiple teams. which is better. FIGHT!!!!!!
EPSILON - I would suggest you take the lead. I know you want it to be everyone's Cup but there has to be someone in charge. It's your idea so I think it would be good if you could make some of these initial decisions. If you don't want to make the decisions alone then appoint a small group of people you trust to make decisions by democratic vote.
Unless decisions can be made, nothing is ever going to happen.
MAD ICE:
I have re read your proposal regarding the points system.
It makes sense to me now [relief]:lol
So basically this points system should be used in qualifying by each country to get a final ranking for each pilot that races during qualifying for their countries team.
These points [rankings] are then sent to the Word Cup organizers.
Then the WC organizers post a list for each county with those divisions and which racers are in DIV 1 DIV 2 etc and their ranking within that division.
OK,that makes sense.
Then the same points system can be used in the actual WC playoff's for when two opposing countries race against each other,in their respective divisions.
OK,that makes sense too.
I'll agree to that,it seems the fairest way to go about things.
Assuming all other countries agree to this format.
We would need to decide on a few other matters.
Firstly we need a head of tournament that has final decision and will rule on any disputes,preferably somebody not actually racing in the WC [LANCE perhaps]:cold
1]How will the draw go regarding which country plays which?
2]Who will decide what dates and times that these races occur?[it needs to be the governing body of the WC otherwise this tournament will take forever]
I propose a window over 4 days that each country has to decide between them which day/time to race,it must be completed within that time.
3]Who decides which country hosts these races [I propose one country hosts no weapons the other with] it evens the LAG situation up.
4]We need a rule regarding Defaults,[one country not being able to have enough racers for a particular event[subs are not available etc] when the other team has them all]
5]A secondary date for an event[agreed in advance between competing countries] in case the WOHD servers are down.
6]A list of who heads each countries team [this will save time in organization/messaging etc]
That's covers most situations I can think of ATM,except for one.
Will there be a GOLDEN THUMB award for the best individual pilot during the World Cup [WOHD equivalent of the Golden Boot]:lol