Jay's Speed Mod

[Frances_Penfold]

Sorry Jabberjaw, I intend no offense Some folks like yourself, and Asayyeah, and Mad-Ice, and Flashback, and Kandang have put lots of effort into time trialing, and it shows in your records.

But as a community, Wipeout records are pretty weak. I include myself in that statement!

Ok, let's look at Wipeout 3 PAL-- for Porta Kora, there are ~50 participants, with the top 10 participants having a 2.0 second spread for Phantom.

Here's the reference:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/records.p...ds&sub_action=

Now let's compare to Mario Kart 64, let's consider Koopa Troopa Beach lap times-- there are >600 entries, and the top 10 racers are separated by just 2/10ths of a second.

Here's the reference:
http://www.mariokart64.com/test/tp2.cgi?9

MK64 is an older game, what about a more recent title like Mario Kart DS? Let's consider Cheep Cheep Beach lap times-- there are 677 entries, and the top 10 racers are again separated by 2/10ths of a second.

Here's the reference:
http://www.mariokart64.com/mkds/coursep.php?cid=5

F-zero games tend to have complex ladder systems that are harder to interpret-- still, there is clearly lots of competition for most of the games... F-zero X has >200 participants in the ladder with very small times separating players.

Here's a reference:
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/f0/view...&cup=1&key=lap

For sure, some Mario Kart and F-zero games have rubber-band AI, and of course Mario Kart has item handouts that favor lower ranked players. But nobody does multiplayer for competition-- everything is done with time trials where the only items are shrooms. Moreover, there are different leagues to support different styles of play (snaking, non-snaking, space-flight, PRB, NBT, short-cuts, etc.)

The level of skill shown by MK and F-zero players is crazy-- like you and Asayyeah and other top players, but there are many more participants that push each other to get amazing times.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ypYC7SRuvAc
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kuWfTH6DPxE
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_yEhEaUHDag

So yeah, I think there is a weaker tradition of time trials OVERALL for Wipeout than many other racing games-- not that we don't have some really amazing pilots but you guys are few and far between!

I'd like to see more ongoing competition in time trials because it makes the playing Wipeout more fun and more interesting. I will never be a top player (not good enough) but I enjoy fighting my way up the tables, exchanging tips with other pilots and having friendly competition. So I cringe to see people deleting their times from our tables (which was the context in which I made the "****" comment, which was clearly an overstatement!)

[eLhabib]

That's all due to the fact that Mario Kart is a game that everyone knows, and has played before, whereas wipEout, unfortunately, is not. I think relative to the number of people who actively compete in both game series, wipEout actually has a tighter competition.

[infoxicated]

I think we can take it from Flashback_Jack ignoring both myself and Mad-Ice that he is indeed using custom firmware.

I wonder why he had to dance around the issue?

^ is a rhetorical question.

[The Gracer]

hey guys, what did i miss?

on a serious note - i dont really post records on the site, its just way too much effort for me, data entry is a pet hate of mine and blah blah blah. my times really arent that competitive anyway.

Im definitely with Rob on this - the record tables shouldnt be looked upon as some intense sort of fight for the top, it should be more about just sharing your (honest) times with everyone, regardless of the tedium of entering them all .

After reading throught this thread i was quite alarmed at how...ill use the word passionate...people were getting. it was.. well, alarming.

What happened to the old AG-SYS catch-cry guys?

Lets not get carried away here.

Discussion is good, but 1000 word essays that pick apart, quote and respond to every statement made in the previous post is overkill.

[JABBERJAW]

If you are going by numbers, certainly they are low in comparison, but let me get to those two games

FZER0. In the tracks where you cannot jump the entire thing, I recall (please post the site again, that would be cool) that there were a couple guys that were quite better(jimmy thai) (full race time) than everyone else, then it bunched up some. The competition is good, but on some races, it is wrecked due to flying the entire couse imo. The snake technique I find incredibly stupid, as well as hitting the outside of a speed pad to go faster (although that one isn't so bad) Having to drive like a spaz intentionally for me is not fun in the least, it requires skill to be sure, but so doesn't spitting milk out of your eye
So FZERO, good competition and hard to get great times, but don't want to play it due to silly move

on a side note, fzero x did not have snaking? right? If not, I would like to look at those records again


Mario Kart TTing. These records are so close imo because the game is so incredibly easy to play. I know there are special techniques, but when the game moves that slow, they become very easy to pull off.

WIPEOUT: Wipeout 3 has excellent competion, yes there is a big difference between 1 and 10, but the game is considerably harder at Phantom speed than those two other games. It is difficult to do perfect races, I don't know of to many times I have turned the system on and not hit a wall within about 15 seconds on the first try. And hitting the wall really causes a speed difference in the times (OLD GAMES). If I was to do a perfect run on Talons reach I have gotten a 1:14.7, but if I hit one time, it is at minimum a 1:16 immediately due to the high speeds being lost. In Fzero (pure and pulse as well), when you scrape a wall, it is not that much difference in you time, less than a 10th sometimes. That is why it is easier to get a pure or pulse record that is so close to the top times. Also, the addition of pitch control causing significant speed differences also adds to spread in times

Anyway, hopefully the older games get more records in them.

[Frances_Penfold]

Per my understanding, F-Zero GX had two problematic game mechanics at the highest levels of competition. First, snaking, where really heavy ships could achieve faster speeds by constant back/forth movements; and second, space-flight, where properly aimed jumps could allow you to skip sections of the track. While neither was "easy" to do it clearly affected times amongst expert players.

Snaking (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EVd6ZgsdDaU
Spaceflight (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vlEAhWlcU

The F-Zero community managed these problem issues by creating separate ladders for different styles of play, as shown here: http://www.mrfixitonline.com/f0/gxladderhome.php

The other F-Zero games had much fewer problems of this nature, and have always attracted a hardcore audience of really talented players. Problem is, Nintendo has essentially abandoned the franchise, leading to attrition amongst players. Moreover, F-Zero never had a committed website manager (like our dear Rob, may his name never be taken in vain) so the community bounced around between web homes. Given these realities, I think it's remarkable that the community still persists at all, much less maintain very competitive time trial ladders. You can visit the current home of the F-Zero community at Mr. Fixit Online: http://www.mrfixitonline.com/

As somebody that has participated in both Mario Kart and Wipeout time trials, I would not underestimate the challenge that karting presents-- in my opinion, Mario Kart is actually harder to play competitively than either F-Zero or Wipeout. The challenge lies in the mini-turbos. Not only do you have to maintain a good line through the track, one also must time, space and execute the mini-turbos. Moreover, the karts play quite differently. Consequently, there are a million different approaches for a given Mario Track course.

Mario Kart attracted a hard-core time trial fan-base early on, and it continues to flourish thanks to people like Alex Penev and others over at MarioKart64.com. Some of those folks are crazy dedicated, going so far as to do TAS speedruns on emulators to identify the absolutely perfect run through a course, and then try to replicate this in real-world play. It's very challenging to get high ranking times in a Mario Kart game-- I played MKDS daily for two years and probably got to ~150 out of 600 or so participants? Mario Kart tends to be very fatiguing, due to the mini-turbos, which is the main reason I stopped playing.

Mario Kart 64 and Mario Kart Super Circuit have a fair number of short cuts, some intention and some not. Competition for these games is maintained by having sanctioned and non-sanctioned shortcuts, each with different time trial ladders. Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart DS are much cleaner in this regard though the latter has a weird mechanic called PRB-- prolonged rocket boost-- in which the quick boost at the beginning of a race can be maintained through an entire track if you perfectly and consistently hit the mini-turbos. It's harder than hell to execute in practice.

Mario Kart 64 non-sanctioned short-cut:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hLmsi_4nkNI

Mario Kart Super Circuit permitted shortcut:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc0OGf-t_sU

PRB on MKDS:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cEHF7ued3mA

Sweet mini-turbos on Mario Kart Double Dash:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xGUi4B...eature=related

As an aside, I would distinguish "snaking" in F-Zero (where it is clearly a manipulation of the game's physics engine) from "snaking" in Mario Kart (where it a logical extension of the core racing mechanic). The term snaking gets tossed around a lot but means different things in different games, IMHO.

Personally, I actually like Wipeout better than either F-Zero or Mario Kart. Wipeout has always had better tracks than F-Zero, and a much better sense of style. Wipeout also has continued support from Sony, plus an amazing developer that actually takes the time to post on this forum, a wonderful and thoughtful community, and, of course, Rob, who keeps everything going

I have tried on several occasions to get buddies from the Mario Kart and F-Zero communities to try Wipeout, because it has so much to offer. But no success so far. In any case, I am hoping that our community will grow on its own merits, and that includes a bigger and better set of records on the WOZ tables

WIPEOUT: Wipeout 3 has excellent competion, yes there is a big difference between 1 and 10, but the game is considerably harder at Phantom speed than those two other games. It is difficult to do perfect races, I don't know of to many times I have turned the system on and not hit a wall within about 15 seconds on the first try. And hitting the wall really causes a speed difference in the times (OLD GAMES). If I was to do a perfect run on Talons reach I have gotten a 1:14.7, but if I hit one time, it is at minimum a 1:16 immediately due to the high speeds being lost. In Fzero (pure and pulse as well), when you scrape a wall, it is not that much difference in you time, less than a 10th sometimes. That is why it is easier to get a pure or pulse record that is so close to the top times. Also, the addition of pitch control causing significant speed differences also adds to spread in times

I had not thought about that-- I could see where that would tend to spread the times out Even with Wipeout Pure and Pulse, there tends to be a big jump between Asayyeah/Mad-Ice and the rest of us-- heck if I can figure out where to make up that difference in some tracks.

I think El Habib is definitely right-- the user base IS different for a Mario Kart than for a Wipeout (though probably not much different between F-zero and Wipeout), and that affects the structure of the record tables.

Perhaps a combined ranking scheme (across games) would provide motivation for folks to play the older games?

[JABBERJAW]

nice description of the fzero and mk franchise. As I watched the snaking I was more disgusted than ever Did you know if it was in fzero x?

I watched one of the flight tracks, and it was 8-9 second laps because the entire track was cut off except for about 5 seconds in the beginning. To be honest though, I would rather have that than snaking.

Didn't fzero x have a way to jump off of the track, and land back on at past turbo speeds?

[eLhabib]

Snaking (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EVd6ZgsdDaU
Spaceflight (F-Zero GX): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vlEAhWlcU

My God, I had no idea it was THAT bad. This is simply ridiculous. I have little to no respect for records established this way. Makes all discussions in this thread about exploiting the nosedown seem like peanuts in comparison.

Jeez, now I have even more reasons to laugh into the faces of wipEout-hating F-Zero fanboys. Your game SUCKS at a competitive level!

[JABBERJAW]

EL, I don't think it was in the older games however, like X, ds versions, or the original. Maybe Frances, or AG wolf can comment on that.


However, I just watched that spaceflight one ( I saw a different one on another post) and that was quite bad actually.

[Frances_Penfold]

To my knowledge, neither snaking nor space flight was a problem in F-Zero Maximum Velocity (GBA) nor F-Zero X (N64)-- those games can be enjoyed straight up

For F-Zero GX, snaking and space flight presented an initial problem, as the exploits were discovered, but eventually the community moved to create separate ladders. IMO these sorts of glitches and shortcuts are unfortunate but can easily be managed by splitting the record system and appropriate oversight. The mods simply say, "there is no snaking or flying for records in this system," and require video proof for suspect times.

In some ways, glitches/shortcuts make games more interesting because there are more than one way to play them. Some shortcuts in Mario Kart and F-Zero GX are really challenging to execute-- and some people enjoy competing for fastest times using every glitch/exploit they can find. This seems perfectly reasonable to me as long as there are separate chart systems.

My God, I had no idea it was THAT bad. This is simply ridiculous. I have little to no respect for records established this way. Makes all discussions in this thread about exploiting the nosedown seem like peanuts in comparison.

I think you are right-- Wipeout games are relatively "clean" in terms of exploits/glitches. Using tape to perform a controller mod would probably not be a big deal for the Mario Kart and F-Zero communities, as they seem pretty open to simple stuff that doesn't involve emulation or software modification. (Not saying this is good or bad, just point it out )

[phl0w]

F-Zero X had no snaking.

I have to agree with Francis_Penfold on the MK and F-Zero matter. I was into F-Zero X and MKDS for some time and followed the competition quite closely, although I never contributed any good times (definitely easier with Wipeout). Although one could argue that the F-Zero enginge is broken to some degree (snaking, shortcutting), those techniques never felt random. It definitely took some skill to pull those off and I honestly never thought that a time achieved through a massive shortcut -boosting-through-air-over the finish line was less deserved than the ones where you actually had to stick to the track (that oval course in F-Zero X comes to mind). FrancisPenfold is completely right about the Zone being not as good a time trialing community a many might think, although that may be the game's fault too. Let me explain why:

Let's stick with the mentioned examples (MK and F-Zero), both offer rather tight controls, designed to be played with digital input. Sure, the N64 and GC have analog-controllers available but the little threshold they offer doesn't really qualify them as analogue (much like the PSP's nub). As a consequence e.g. Mario Kart's fastest laptimes can be described pretty detailed and re-played fairly simple (doesn't equal easy!). You can brake down a lap of MK as a list of the inputs required to achieve that lap. I always liked that and missed it when I got to know WOZ.

When I first joined the Zone I searched for techniques and racing lines for Pure and was pretty surprised to find n o t h i n g. Hardly anybody, Mad-Ice being the honorable exception to this rule, describes his fastest Pure/ Pulse laps in detail, but thinks of many things required to clock a lap in Wipeout as a given. Especially with the return of digital input as the prefered controlling method for WO it's again possible (and necessary if you don't wanna lose to much speed) to steer with single inputs, and yet nobody tells how he takes corners.
It could look like this for a right turn: three quick taps on right, or 2 right-taps followed by 1 tap on the right airbrake followed by another two taps on right. Or take an airbraked corner: As soon as you pass [insert any landmark from a given track here] hit your right airbrake to initiate a slide instantly followed by 3 three taps on the right dpad while releasing the airbrake after the second tap to get your nose ready for the straight.
In MK this works wonders and you really can imagine how those at the front achieve their times. It's even possible to go through courses in theory, making a list of what you think are the inputs required to follow your theoretical new fastest line and release it for the community. As a result the whole board at MK64.com starts to time-trial your line to see in practice what times are really possible. And guess what, the resulting times are always pretty close to the ones predicted. I always found that amazing as it shows how consistent a game's mechanics are and how well suited it makes the game for competition.
The way I see it is that we as a Wipeout community lack termini technici to describe techniques that are pulled off in a certain way EVERY time what as a consequence qualifies them as a method. However, at the same time, I am often under the impression that especially with Pulse, many stuff seems rather random and can't be reproduced that easily like in F-Zero or MK. That's why I said it was partly the game's fault and why I suggested that the devs should release more detailed information on how the game processes inputs. Enough now, I'd like to get some well grounded arguments if detailed time trialing the way it's done in F-Zero or MK (described above) is possible for Pure/ Pulse?
So, to sum up: Do you think a lap of Wipeout can be reduced to a simple list of inputs and lines to follow? If not, is it because the game is too random at times?

[lunar]

very good question, Phlow. Certainly for Wipeout 1 you can and probably should break it down into descriptions like that to get good times, much like in a driving game you would know exactly where your braking and acceleration points would be on a lap of Silverstone. The Negcon steering makes it tough to do the "3 taps left" kind of breakdown, but I think you can break the course down into markers and know exactly when and where your next move is going to come, and it includes pitch control. I could write stuff like that for Wipeout 1 - but each track would be a huge essay and I`m not convinced there`s an audience . Others could do the same on 2097 and Wip3out - but how many people would want to play 2097 for long enough to do the kind of amazing things Arnaud can do? And how many of those with the inclination would have the ability?

I think it`s tougher to describe things in minute detail on Pure and Pulse perhaps because the physics of the games tend to make the movement of the ship feel a little random and hence make every lap a little different, or at least the "real world" physics make it feel that way, but there is still an ideal lap and such a breakdown would be possible. We`ve written a few on tracks where we`ve gone mad with intense competiton - 123Klan comes to mind. Every bump of some tracks has been ruthlessly examined. Really every Wipeout game does have somebody pushing the limits, I think. We don`t have huge numbers on most games - but some of this stuff is very specialist and difficult on a game that isn`t massively popular like MK in the first place, and to get the best times on the old games really does demand a Negcon. On Pure the high level competion is there - look at the Vineta K TT tables and others. It`s not there in great numbers on Pulse yet, but it will be. Wipeout`s just not a hugely popular game, but I think the standard is very high all round - nobody is going to come along and knock chunks off the records on any game.

Generally about randomness, I think if Wipeout does have an element of it that can only be considered a good thing. It`s a test. The MK stuff is no doubt very technically tough, but it looks more like a platformer speed run in places than a racing game.

[RJ O'Connell]

This thread may be the most destructive that I've read here in my five on-and-off years of posting here. It gets two stars accordingly. In time we'll look back at this and be ashamed of ourselves and the way most of us acted. :-

The whole reason I don't do the super illegal mods like CFW? Wait for it...

I'm too lazy. I can't be bothered to follow all 50 steps and invest money in trick MS Duos and whatnot so I can put M33 on a PSP Phat.

Same with the Speed Mod - I could fetch a strip of tape out of a drawer and nail down the analog nub, but Wipeout Pure takes five years to load anyway if the game's maxed out with DLC. I can't waste any more time.

On a full-fledged console, modding is about 100x harder and not worth the effort, IMO. (Except with GameShark, but that's **** you can buy over the counter and cheating with it would just be really obvious.) That's why I enjoy WO1 competitions when they happen. Wipeout Original takes out the shortcuts, turbo scrapes, imbalance caused by superships, everything. It's really the purest form of the game you can find.

And the neGcon does to the Playstation 1 games what Logitech wheels do to driving sims like GTR and rFactor. Makes them so much more playable. But that doesn't mean you can't be fast without it - that's the beauty of the older games.

I do agree the rules are in need of an update, though if at all possible we should make the rules game-specific.

Bottom Line: I don't get bent out of shape that I'm not the fastest at every track and won't go to extreme lengths to do it - because, frankly, I don't care. I've got enough outside of WipeoutZone to keep me occupied.

[eLhabib]

Sorry to take this back once again to the Mario Kart comparison:

This may sound harsh, but a racing game where a record lap can be summed up by the inputs necessary?! That's just pathetic, and proves just how little of a real racing game MK actually is... Good luck with trying to describe a lap for even the most minimalistic of all wipEout games, the original one, by inputs. Pitch control alone is enough to lift it worlds above games like MK and F-Zero. (and I don't mean to sound like an MK- or F-Zero-hater, because I'm not. I like both games, especially F-Zero GX, but on a competitive level they don't even require half as much skill - and I'm talking about piloting skill, as in real-world racing line terms - as the wipEout series) <- long sentence, sorry

[JABBERJAW]

agree with el habib about the skill required, tting in the older games before fusion, there is no random stuff that happens to the ship really, you can take the same line every time if you practice enough, but it is still extremely difficult to do, so if you are off to the left by an inch, you might not hit the hill right, then lose speed, and cannot get to the speed pad you needed, and it may take a few seconds to get yourself back on the right line, because it does not grip to the track. this is the cause for the time differences in my opinion. The pitch control very specifically causes this to be a much more difficult game to master than fzero, mk, and even pure and pulse, because, while they have pitch control, it doesn't affect your speed as much. It seems that it will take a while to get anywhere near the best possible times on all the wipeout games. There just seems to be so many new routes found to take, even after someone has found "the best way".

I agree with frances that fzero requires very much skill to achieve those times, I just don't like the snake look

I do not agree that MK is very difficult. It moves slow enough for over 50 year olds to eventually learn how to master it. It does not require quick skills, just acquired skills with practice (like nascar )

[Frances_Penfold]

The way I see it is that we as a Wipeout community lack termini technici to describe techniques that are pulled off in a certain way EVERY time what as a consequence qualifies them as a method. However, at the same time, I am often under the impression that especially with Pulse, many stuff seems rather random and can't be reproduced that easily like in F-Zero or MK.

That is an interesting point that had never occurred to me I suppose there are several other advantages of this sort for MK: (1) mini-turbos punctuate one's racing line, and serve as a natural reference for describing it in text form (MT-L, MT-R, MT-R, hop the barrier, MT-L, MT-R, etc.); (2) MK supports replays, making it MUCH easier for time trialers to share strategies.

As Lunar and Jabberjaw mention, another complication with Wipeout is the crazy amount of topography that exists on tracks-- plus the existence of pitch control, side shifts and airbrakes as alternate means to steer the ship. It's hard to capture such complexity in text form, I guess.

On Pure the high level competion is there - look at the Vineta K TT tables and others. It`s not there in great numbers on Pulse yet, but it will be. Wipeout`s just not a hugely popular game, but I think the standard is very high all round - nobody is going to come along and knock chunks off the records on any game.

You may be right-- but I agree with Jabberjaw that it seems unlikely. In time trialing games where there is a high level of competition with numerous players, you usually see a significant decrease in record times each and every year. If you look at MK64, a game that has played HEAVILY for more than a decade-- most world records have been set in the past several years. (For example see: http://www.mariokart64.com/kart64/archive/wr.html).

Asayyeah and Mad-Ice and Flashback and others have managed amazing times with Wipeout Pure/Pulse but I suspect all of our current records could be improved upon, in many cases significantly, if there were more wipers out there playing

This may sound harsh, but a racing game where a record lap can be summed up by the inputs necessary?! That's just pathetic, and proves just how little of a real racing game MK actually is...

Heh, it sounds simpler than it really is. I grant you that MK has fewer controller inputs than Wipeout but remember, there is the mini-turbo mechanic that has to be hit in the right place and the right time. Besides, when players summarize their paths it's not like they are REALLY saying how many times they are pushing the D-pad, it's a simplification that helps with transcribing their racing line into text form.

I do not agree that MK is very difficult. It moves slow enough for over 50 year olds to eventually learn how to master it. It does not require quick skills, just acquired skills with practice (like nascar )

OH YOU GUYS

I think that you should dig up whatever version of Mario Kart you have lying around the house, pick a course and race it for an hour in time trials-- and them compare your times against those listed at Mariokart64.com. I think you will be shocked at how shitty your records are. As I mentioned before, I spent almost 2 years playing Mario Kart DS and wasn't anywhere near the top 10% for any particular course. With less effort in Wipeout Pure/Pulse I have 3rd, 4th, 5th ranked records on some courses using the ZONE ship of all things. Mario Kart is really ****ing hard to play competitively, I swear it

This thread may be the most destructive that I've read here in my five on-and-off years of posting here. It gets two stars accordingly. In time we'll look back at this and be ashamed of ourselves and the way most of us acted. :-

Admittedly there has been a whole lot of stupid in this thread, and I apologize for my contributions to the stupid. At the same time, I think this thread has been helpful for discussing real issues related to Wipeout time trials and the nature of competition at WOZ. I know that I have changed my mind on issues several times in the course of things, I suspect others have sharpened their thinking as well

[Flashback Jack]

Just an example of a record made by me with using the tip on Talon´s Junction White a Time Trial Race on Phantom:

1st 0.22.83
2nd 0.21.78
3rd 0.21.67
4th 0.21.75
5th 0.21.75

Total 1.49.78

Of course there will be someone that will beat this record, but it shows that I am able to calculate the lowest possible race time for a track, give or take a few tenth, but not seconds.

My own test results:

Talon's Junction White (Phantom)

1st 0.22.59
2nd 0.21.95
3rd 0.21.62
4th 0.21.45
5th 0.21.60

Total 1.49.21 (AG Systems)

And it was an ugly run too with zero perfect laps.

It appears nobody who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will stand a chance without this pitch down thing, and that is unfortunate.

- F

[JABBERJAW]

mike the tape is now outlawed, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Any times I achieved with are are going to be erased soon (kids take up time), arnaud deleted his times as well

[mdhay]

To my knowledge, neither snaking nor space flight was a problem in F-Zero Maximum Velocity (GBA) nor F-Zero X (N64)-- those games can be enjoyed straight up

I did manage to skip a lot of Bianca City Beginner circuit by using that jump on the 3rd major corner.

[Mad-Ice]

My own test results:

Talon's Junction White (Phantom)

1st 0.22.59
2nd 0.21.95
3rd 0.21.62
4th 0.21.45
5th 0.21.60

Total 1.49.21 (AG Systems)

And it was an ugly run too with zero perfect laps.

It appears nobody who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will stand a chance without this pitch down thing, and that is unfortunate.

- F

I did however a few perfect laps and a very very tight race. So I, who wishes to be ultimately competitive in this game will not stand a chance without CFW and that is unfortunate! Or am I wrong Flashback_Jack!?