10 Things I hate about WipEout Pulse

[Dogg Thang]

I would recommend Lego Star Wars for players who can't put in the long minutes it takes to get to grips with WO. It's rather fun and no challenge whatsoever.

[master bruce]

I think people are misconstruing what I'm saying, since I'm not advocating making the game easier.

I want to use an example of a game: Street Fighter 2

You could beat the game on 8 stars (hardest difficulty) or even 4 stars and still get to watch the ending.

Did that ruin the game for hardcore players? No, not at all. Experts still chose to play at 8 stars because they enjoyed the challenge, and less skilled players could play at 4 stars while still getting the ending. It was a win-win situation for everyone.

[Dogg Thang]

But four stars on SF2 was still a hell of a challenge back in the day. Sure, nothing compared with the 8 stars but a novice player would get their ass handed to them at 4 stars.

So it's much the same - you had to put in some time to get to know the game and get a little better at it.

[Sausehuhn]

As long as you give the skilled pilots the feeling they do better than the less skilled and the other way around I really have no problem with the concept.

Let the medals untouched and give them a "minimum qualification" that unlocks the next race. Give the advanced players more reward, it has to be visible that you mastered the game on easy or hard.
This way not only the skilled pilots feel satisfied but also the noobs feel like "hey, wait, there's more to get when I play with hard difficulty!".
More concept ships for example. Or more images in the gallery (yes you would have to add one again ) and maybe even more game settings for the people who master the game on a higher difficulty level (make races available with custom number of laps for example).
Stuff like that.
So noobs are interested in playing more of the game and the skilled people are happy with what they get and they see that they are good.

In Pulse you just get a small info on the screen that tells you if you raced in hard or in easy mode. That's all.

And it should clearly visible that there are different difficulty settings available. If I didn't know it was in, I probably had not seen it.
Remember: not everyone reads the manual.

[rageagainstgeorge]

I disagree about having content that is only unlocked at very difficult settings. The content should be the same no matter how skilled the player is.

I used to be able to invest loads of time in games and in the process became quite good at some of them. I can't do that anymore so i always feel a cheated when i have to do something very hard in a game to unlock something.

I was really pleased to see in Pulse that you got nothing extra (aside from a few points) when playing on hard. This is the way it should be.

[Rapier Racer]

Have to completely disagree with the above.

I feel cheated when there is no reward for more effort. The lack of time really is your problem. If there is something special only available for people who put more effort in then perhaps more players would try to get it thus increasing the games life.

Extra rewards for skill and dedication, that is the way it should be.

Put more time into the one game instead of quickly moving on to another and another.

[Colin Berry]

I think masterbruce makes a very valid point and it is one that is certainly being debated more and more in the industry.

Frankly lowering the requirements for opening up a game should not damage the enjoyment for the hardcore masses

Why should Hardcore player A feel aggrieved if casual gamer B has raced the same levels as he has even though he is not as fast around the tracks ?

I used to have that attitude tbh, I used to be quite a hardcore gamer importing games, and really sinking hours in. These days. .. I'm 33 I have a silly amount of consoles to play on I have about 25 games stacked up at home UNTOUCHED stretching back to GOD of War 1, they remain in my to play when I get time pile, I sink hours into World of Warcraft and I play on my PSP and my PS2 when I get chance, sometimes on the Wii (res evil 4 atm) sometimes the DS, sometimes my 360, although even that in itself is largely sitting there in a to do pile. At 33 with a girlfriend and other commitments I dont always want games that challenge me sometimes I want a game that merely entertains me (example is res evil 4, its not hard, but its great fun).
I can understand the elitist hardcore mentality but its one as I get older, I find myself moving away from. I'd like to see gaming more popular than it is, I'd like it to be more inclusive. I dont want to see all games being easy, but if you take something like wipeout I think it should be easy enough to open all tracks and ships and classes, but hard to master.

Now some folk on here think even the hard on Pulse is too easy, but then they are the top players in the world and it is hard to balance a game and make it competitive for the top 0.01%

Certainly in Pulse I think the gap between hard and easy was probably too close, in hindsight I'd have the hard harder and the easy a little easier, if people want to play it on easy spend their money and experience the whole game without mastering it, cool. If people want to play on hard and test themselves and become gaming gods, cool, I think both should be allowed to co-exist, indeed I think games that can cater for both are rare and should be applauded. Games are afterall entertainment, you dont need a degree to read a book or watch a film, you dont need special god like eyes or ears to appreciate music and video, why should you need elite skills to enjoy a game, surely having a game that provides fun for new players and established is something to welcome ??
Football is popular the world over because all you need to play it is a ball, not even a football ! a tennis ball will do, and young and old you can experience the fun of football, imagine if professional footballers turned round and said, its too easy to play football, from now on you are not allowed unless you put in more time and effort and can do this this and this and have this.
Anyone should be able to pick up and play a computer game, then when people compete online, people who are good can compete with each other, people who are average can compete with each other and people who are learning or dont ever want to be expert can compete and have fun, personally I think that is ideal.

I do feel those who play 'on hard' should maybe get extra token rewards (in terms of end fmvs etc or special ship skins) but its not always viable to include them. The time it takes to produce for example, a 2min FMV could actually be used to create 16 additional skins, and that is a conservative effort. In Pulse we gave more loyalty for people playing on hard as such they open the alt skins etc quicker, but casual players who arent as good can still open those eventually.

I like the idea of rewarding the hardcore player, but I dont like the idea of making the game elitist and only the good will see the later stages of a game. Games being elitist and exclusive is far more likely to kill the industry than games being easy.

Ultimately with Wipeout HD, the main game is not simply the campaign mode, the campaign mode is where you learn about the tracks and the ships and the speed classes, but the long term competition comes from the online play.

We are aiming to make the HARD in HD a challenge, but the easy, easy. Hopefully the more people play it and enjoy it, the more they continue to play it and the more they will be encouraged to go online and experience the fun that brings.

[master bruce]

exactly Colin, make the hard harder (and include some side rewards) this will satisfy the elites for their challenge quest

make the easy easier, so the casual gamer can get a taste of all vehicles and levels

to me, it's a win-win and no one suffers



I think people are neglecting the perspective of game creators, who are in it to make a profit. They can make the most profit by creating a game with the broadest reach, not one with the narrowest audience.

btw, Wipeout Pulse is my fav PSP game currently.

[Dogg Thang]

I want a game that merely entertains me

That's fine, Colin, but that doesn't have to be every game. That's what Burnout is for.

It's not every book either. And few, if any, books try to be all things to all people.

But it sounds a bit like you want WO to be all things to all gamers. And, in that scenario, something has to give. And I would say something has. When you take a game that required great skill, time and effort to learn and master, and say you want to cater to people who aren't able or willing to put any time into doing that, of course something's going to give.

I'm in my thirties with a young daughter too with little time to play games so I know where you're coming from. But I don't expect every game to cater to me and certainly wouldn't want games to try to be something they aren't at the expense of the actual fans to cater to me who will just pick it up and toss it after thirty minutes because that's all the time I'm willing to put into it. If they cut Final Fantasy games down to 15 minutes so people like me can see the ending, they wouldn't be doing the franchise a favour.

It's no different with WO.

[Lance]

@phlow: good post, especially this part:
''It's only, that the beginner feels false accomplishment and the better player feels betrayed,...''

I think that's the core of the disagreement about this. Some of us feel that the game's integrity is compromised; that the unworthy [because of lack of commitment] are superficially rewarded to the same degree as those who have put so much of themselves, their energy, time, and spirit into becoming really good at it.

From the standpoint of a gameseller, it is an advantage to create a game that be can be bought, then quickly beaten, dropped, and replaced by the purchase of yet another new game, since this turnover is what generates continual excitement in the market and more sales. From the standpoint of a gamer, it is an advantage to have a great game that always rewards effort and keeps doing so no matter how long it is played. That it is in essence a great long-lasting value.

[master bruce]

but Lance, my suggestion also included making the Gold requirements harder (along with some rewards: unlockable concept skins perhaps), so there would be greater value for the hardcore players who can get all golds as well

and you guys realize that anyone can just download saved files to get access to all levels and ships as of now anyways...does that impact the enjoyment any of you have from the game? I would assume not. Although by your logic, allowing dling of a saved file is almost akin to have a cheat code that allows noobs to enjoy the full content of the game.

[Dogg Thang]

So then those who don't want to spend time, you know, actually going through the whole icky process of actually playing the game are already catered for with these game saves.

[master bruce]

So then those who don't want to spend time, you know, actually going through the whole icky process of actually playing the game are already catered for with these game saves.

but isn't your whole argument that allowing noobs to bypass the challenge of earning their way through the levels detrimental for hardcore players?

well, having saved games directly allows anyone to access the entire game without playing a minute. Yet that doesn't affect your enjoyment of wipeout at all, does it? So, in effect, saved files are like cheat codes that are available, yet they DON'T have any detrimental effect on hardcore players.

Another argument someone said was "if you make bronze easier, why would I bother to get golds". Well, guess what, there are saves with 100% completion, yet I'm sure most of you guys still play the game rather than just download the save. My point is having an option doesn't mean you have to use it. Having an easier bronze doesn't affect hardcore players at all since they only go for golds in the first place.

[Dogg Thang]

Circular argument.

When it comes down to it, if you're looking for a quick play game with no challenge, the WO franchise would not be the first place someone would look. Nor should it be. It has never been that game.

And that's why I recommend Lego Star Wars. That is that game and does it well. It's good fun.

Different games for people with different playing needs.

[lunar]

I agree with you master bruce, Colin summed it all up pretty well, as did Sausehuhn, for me, when talking about rewards. I think no-one has at all convincingly answered your question about what`s really wrong with your suggestion.

A racing game allows you to offer these sort of difficulty options, whereas other types of games perhaps don`t without cheapening the experience. You don`t want to turn Final Fantasy or any adventure game into a walk-through movie, it would ruin it, but in a racing game the structure can allow you to have it both ways, I think, particularly if some reward is offered to those who play it on hard.

I like the game to be tough, but as long as Wipeout has walls that make you stop, and tough human opponents around, it will be tough. I`d also like some tough targets to aim for, mainly so that I`ve got something to think about while learning the tracks. Personally, I don`t give a hoot what anyone else does with the game or how they play it, so long as they don`t cheat and affect other people in that way. If somebody is playing some sort of super-easy mode, crashing all over the place, while I try (and fail) to fly a Perfect Race on Platinum Rush, with 3 BR`s per lap and every speed pad, it won`t bother me one bit. Why on earth should it? I`m not going to impress anyone, get rich or become more attractive to women because I can play super-hardcore Wipeout that is only available to those with ninja-reflexes and years of zen-training. As long as SL keep giving me games I get a kick out of (and with less barrels rolls please) I really don`t see the problem with them also offering a way of playing that might cause the game to include more people and sell more copies, in fact I`m all for it. If they make a game as unforgiving as Wipeout 1, I might love it, but it would probably be the last Wipeout game ever made.

[master bruce]

Circular argument.

When it comes down to it, if you're looking for a quick play game with no challenge, the WO franchise would not be the first place someone would look. Nor should it be. It has never been that game.

And that's why I recommend Lego Star Wars. That is that game and does it well. It's good fun.

Different games for people with different playing needs.

I still think you're missing my point.

Did I say "make the vehicles slower, easier to control, make the levels straighter, make the physics less punishing?" NO. I'm not saying you should change gameplay AT ALL to accomodate novices.

I'm saying keep the gameplay exactly the same. So your needs would still be served exactly the same, in fact I'm advocating raising the gold standards, so you will be getting a HARDER game.

[Dogg Thang]

But Bruce, the vehicles have been made easier to control. The levels have been made straighter. The physics are less punishing.

On lowering the bronze alone, I personally have no problem with it. But when WO tries to be all things to all people, the game dilutes. It has already been severely diluted and, while you're right that lowering brozes would not affect better players, the idea that games should be made to a point where anyone can pick it up and get everything out of it right then and there I disagree with.

And that's what this is about and what Colin is talking about. And it's not as simple as difficulty options as Lunar says because Wipeout, at the very core of what the game is, is about mastering those AG craft. WO1 could have had bronze medals set at over three hours a lap and it would still be challenging. Now WO1, in my opinion, was crazily tough but that's the starting point of this franchise.

[Medusa]

"I`m not going to impress anyone, get rich or become more attractive to women because I can play super-hardcore Wipeout that is only available to those with ninja-reflexes and years of zen-training..."
Well actually...

*little voice says* "Ditch the boyfriend who says he doesn't like wipeout. Got to at least pretend to like it..."

Maybe I wouldn't be surprised at the suggestion to lower medal standards if the actual gameplay wasn't made so easy, as Dogg Thang says.
I partially agree with lunar in that yes, regardless of the standards, the human competition is where the real challenge lies - but at the same time I prefer a game with inhuman speeds and difficulty like Wip3out SE. There is something wrong (in my opinion) when the tracks are so easy you can get perfect laps whilst jousting for position the entire lap against three human opponents!

[master bruce]

But Bruce, the vehicles have been made easier to control. The levels have been made straighter. The physics are less punishing.

well, I completely agree with you on the point of not changing gameplay to make it more accessible. Which is why I specifically noted that I don't want any aspects of actual gameplay to be changed to make it easier.

[rageagainstgeorge]

There's so many good points in here I don't know where to begin.

I agree with making bronze easier and gold more difficult. That would keep all the OCD people happy by having to pour hours into the game to get all golds. It would also keep the newbies happy. They can go through the game and still get all the cool unlocks without "wasting" 20+ hours replaying each track to get it down to a t. That way, everyone's happy.

I still don't agree with locking extra stuff to very difficult levels. Surely the reward for spending hours playing and getting really good is itself. You can smile that grin you get when you nail a fast lap or hit a really high zone.

Pulse does this very well.