10 Things I hate about WipEout Pulse

[Lion]

6. make the differences between the ships more obvious

this is the only part of the preceding post I want to expand on..
In team fortress 2, valve found that players found it much more acceptable that the different classes had wildly varying stats once the wildly varying silhouettes were introduced. eg: heavy class definitely looks like it should be slower and have more hit points than the scout. their entire appearance hints at that.

This is not something that's particularly echoed in many wipeout ship designs...
ag-sys looks like it should be light, that succeeds. but it looks sleeker than it's speed stats reflect. triakis doesn't look as heavy as it flies, but icaras is the opposite.
in wipeout (original) ships had varying numbers and sizes of engines. this gave some indication of some of their characteristics, it's a feature of the ship design that's no longer present. I'm guessing that there's now a pre-designated position from which engine trails start, and the ship model is simply positioned and/or shaped to match up with this?

The existing ship designs are beautiful, and in most cases reflect the team identity quite well, but they don't all handle the way they look like they should.

[phl0w]

While I agree with you on most of your suggestions, I don't see the point in number 2, it contradicts everything else you mentioned. Tutorials, in-depth detailed manuals and the like are there for a reason: To prepare a player. What's the point in having a tutorial when you demand an even lower general difficulty anyway so a "noob" can clear the grids?

2. Lower the bronze requirements - so players can generally open up all the grids. This doesn't affect hardcore players since gold requirement can still be set high so good players are still rewarded, but noobs can still finish the campaign rather than getting stuck and giving up on the game.

Your second point in general reflects casual gamers' approach to games and the unfortunate accomodation by producers nowadays: Everyone should be able to complete a game. While I agree on that everyone can, I don't think each and everybody should, not without practice, trying and a decent amount of dedication. You said "but noobs can still finish the campaign rather...". Isn't that the complete opposite what a game should try to do? I.e. feature a learning curve that requires the player to get better in the process and eventually when he has reached a certain level (usually found by producers through balancing) will release him from that "noob" status, and as a result he will finish the game. Don't you think, that, by that, a "noob" shouldn't be able to finish any given game in the first place anyway? It would make the whole task of video gaming redundant.
Pulse is the easiest WO to date, by far. It's been said many times that even Pulse's Gold requirements ignore many, many mistakes, whereas they required perfect use of Boost Pads, and (most of the time) perfect laps in Pure (and the former WOs, for that matter).
Maybe it's just my being from the first gaming generation, but I don't see the point in an easy game I know I will finish with time anyway, rather than having to try hard- really hard and with some games still won't finish them because I didn't try hard enough (Ikaruga, anyone?).

[guillaume]

About the damages when colliding with other ships

imo that's a good thing

It might be, it's just that with the AI already being really aggressive, when my ship explodes because I touched another ship, it makes me bitter

Slightly off-topic, can anyone confirm (or not) that you won't get a perfect lap in SR if you touch a ship, even if you don't touch any walls?

[master bruce]

While I agree with you on most of your suggestions, I don't see the point in number 2, it contradicts everything else you mentioned. Tutorials, in-depth detailed manuals and the like are there for a reason: To prepare a player. What's the point in having a tutorial when you demand an even lower general difficulty anyway so a "noob" can clear the grids?

Not all gamers are created equal.

There are many who can play Wipeout Pulse for 100 hours and may not be able to advance past grid 5. While others can play for 2 hours and get gold on phantom.

But guess what, both guys paid $30 for the game. The guy who is bad at racing games will not be able to enjoy 80% of Wipeout's levels simply because he isn't skilled enough...but he didn't pay 20% of the price, he paid 100% price.

By reducing bronze requirements, you alleviate that issue. Yet by keeping or even increasing gold requirements, you reward hardcore experts without penalizing the newcomers.

Or maybe not even bronze, have a lower segment called 'pass' or 'qualifying' that is more lenient than bronze but gives no points or something like that.

[Rapier Racer]

Why don't they just give out medals and chocolate watches for every performance to keep the babies happy? If you can't get bronze your clearly not trying hard enough, is this the way 'casual' gamers are? Casual gamers = lazy/want it handed to them?

eech I've just about had enough of hearing how everything should be easy for causals, demise of the industry?

[master bruce]

I don't understand how easing up bronze requirements effects the game for hardcore players in any way if the gold requirements are still kept very challenging?

the game won't really change at all for you!

btw, Colin and his firm makes game for 2 reasons:

1. it's their passion

2. MONEY

and the bigger the market Wipeout can attract, the MORE MONEY Colin and his firm makes, and the more money = more and better sequels

[phl0w]

Not necessarily, as more money usually doesn't result in better games, that's something the past has shown clearly.

But guess what, both guys paid $30 for the game.

Nobody forces you to play a game, or study applied physics. Do you beg people to change curricula so you pass them without great effort? Things that come effortless are worthless.

[TearsToShreds]

It has been my expierence that the harder the game, the better. (Battletoads, anyone?) What's the point in playing something that you can finish without any practice? The reason so many games fade into obscurity is because they're not challenging. Now there's the option to get downloable content that usually only offers more of the same to lengthen its lifespan. I personally don't care about the content and still have much more fun with the original Wipeout. It is so much more rewarding.

[phl0w]

Amen.

[master bruce]

the thing is, I'm not advocating making the game easier. It's not like I'm not saying:
- make the tracks straighter
- make the vehicles slower
- make the AI worse

etc., in which case I think you guys would have a legitimate gripe.

In fact, I'm not saying the game should be changed at all. So I don't really see how this would effect hardcore players at all, can someone explain how hardcore players would be negatively effected by lowering the bronze requirements (which hardcore players wouldnt care about in the first place since they only go for golds)...in my opinion,by lowering bronze requirements, you make it more accessible for novices to progress but by raising gold requirements, you reward hardcore players for their expertise...it's a win-win situation.

[guillaume]

Sorry to interrupt, I've just spotted something.
I finished a tournament with 32 points, and was listed in second place, but I noticed that the first ship had 32 points too. Yet I won a silver medal. In real life, a tie in first place means 2 gold medals, right?
Yet another negative point? Or is there another criterium to determine who should be first and who should be second?

EDIT: 1st place, 30 points, 2nd place, 30 points, 3rd place, 30 points -> bronze medal. Anyone?

[Lance]

''1. difficulty level. I believe this game is too hard for most average players.''

Since when should the average receive rewards they don't deserve until they've become non-average through working at it? A game is worthless if it's easy for the beginner; he has nothing to strive for, no reason to spend time getting better, no sense of accomplishment from winning.

I would throw such an easy game away, would never buy more of the same either as download packs or later versions of such a game. And I say this as someone who is not amongst the elite game-playing talents.

---------------

''The existing ship designs are beautiful, and in most cases reflect the team identity quite well, but they don't all handle the way they look like they should.''

Just like real life.

[master bruce]

''
Since when should the average receive rewards they don't deserve until they've become non-average through working at it?

Since they pay for it. Not everyone plays the games for the same reasons...maybe someone just thought driving a craft in free race was relaxing and enjoyable and wasn't interested in competitive play and therefore don't want to or can't devote as much time to master the racing.

Again, you haven't addressed my question, how does lowering bronze requirements affect your experience with the game at all? If anyone could answer this question, I would love to hear it.

[lunar]

Well I don`t think what you`re suggesting is exactly the end of the world We should be able to just enjoy the game whatever our level, nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with seeing the issue from both sides either.

They could call an extremely easy mode "baby" mode, or something, so that it would allow you to unlock most of the game, but very few would want to play it with that name. I think R-Type Final had a mode in this name, and it would allow you to see pretty much everything, and it still didn`t stop it being a totally hardcore mutha**** of a game if you wanted to play it "properly." I don`t see the problem, your suggestion is about freedom of choice and I can`t see a problem with that, so long as those who want a monster challenge are given just that, and it`s clearly indicated that "normal" or "hard" is the default and "proper" way to play it, and those who play like that are given some sort of reward for doing so.

Having said all that, I`m not 100% convinced it`s really necessary for you to have bronze easier with Pulse, and I think you probably just need a bit more practice. Most of us have had the benefit of two or three years playing Pure before Pulse came along. It took even the fastest of us a while to get good at Pure, but with Pulse we`ve been able to take to it quickly because of this experience. You will probably get better and wonder why you ever struggled. But if they had put in a "baby" mode, which would enable a total rookie to unlock almost all of the game while playing on an overcrowded tube train at rush hour it would not spoil my game, out here in the lovely quiet countryside, one bit.

[guillaume]

I believe you can lower bronze medals times, and many players will still have the feeling of achievement when they get them. It will even probably make them want to play more, and get the silver and gold medals, instead of putting the game on a shelf. As Rob said (I think), there are many games out there, so if one you try doesn't give you enough pleasure (part of it being in the sense of achievement), you'll try another one.
I kept playing Pure (first WipEout I ever played) only because it was a gift, until I realized how good it was. I keep playing Pulse because I have the feeling that once I'll get good, I'll have fun. But for now it's a pain, as Pure was at the beginning.
To me, trying to reach a bigger market doesn't have to mean making the game pointless. It can be quite the opposite, bringing newcomers to the game, and "share the love" , if done the right way.
So basically I agree with you master bruce.
(and while we lower the bronze times, we may as well make the gold medals harder to reach. but I've said that elsewhere, I wouldn't want to hijack the topic )

[Lance]

I feel no sense of achievement or gratification or pleasure in beating a game or a part of a game that is designed to be beatable even by the least skilled player. Some games used to use cheatcodes; people who didn't want to do the work required to see all the game could use them. Everyone knew it was cheating and called it cheating. IMO, a special easy mode is still a form of cheating in a game that is inherently about skill, I think that is the basis of my objection. I like a game that is inherently great and which does not ask me to love it, and makes absolutely no concession. I love chess or go because they are great, not because they are easy to master. Granted, you can see all the pieces and all the territory even before playing. Though you cannot experience the true essence and greatness of the games till you've gotten good at them. Which requires practice. Which all players of the game can do. In fact, it is when you play against a human or an AI that is better than you that you really learn, that you truly become better. It was not till I played WO3 [through posting times on the records tables] against someone better than me that I began to get better. Till then, I made no progress in the game. My innate competitive drive [such as it is] and the thrill of sometimes being able to do something difficult is what gave satisfaction, made me want more, want to play the game.

[Frances_Penfold]

I'll be another minority opinion that agrees with Master Bruce IMHO the best approach to game difficulty is "easy to learn, hard to master."

So if lowering the bronze metal requirements allows more people to proceed through a Wipeout game, unlocking content and enjoying the process, well, lower the damn requirements! Just don't lower the gold metal requirements while you are doing it! (Gold metal requirements are probably too low as it is, especially at Rapier and Phantom speeds.)

Speaking for myself, I don't think that the grid system has much relevance to the difficulty and depth of the Wipeout experience, at least for the PSP games. The real fun is in time trials and online multiplayer

One last thought-- is the initial learning curve for videogames IN GENERAL correlated with the size of the hardcore fanbase? I mean, think Super Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Halo... all of these games are very approachable yet have some of the most dedicated player participants anywhere!

Anyway, just my $0.02, for whatever it is worth

[Medusa]

My goodness. I didn't think they could make it any easier, you only need a bronze medal to unlock the next grid!?!
The handling is disgustingly easy and the mag-strips and invisible track walls make it near-impossible to go off the tracks!! It's a wipeout game! WIPEOUT! Doesn't anybody realize that the very name implies a high level of difficulty!?!?!

[phl0w]

Since they pay for it.

No, they're not. Price is paid for the UMD, development, manuals, R&D, testing, in short: man-hours. You do not, however, pay for your experience. That's the beauty of videogames. I don't wanna even think about what would happen, if retailers set prices depending on experience. What would games like Final Fantasy (to name one that's said to offer great experience, although I don't think so), or Rez (to name another) cost? 150$, 200$, 500$? And that's the common misconception "casual" gamer's as part of modern entertainment society suffer from. They feel authorized to demand tailor-made entertainment whenever they see fit, just because they paid for "it", which, however, as mentioned above is not true.
Anyway, now for something completely different:

maybe someone just thought driving a craft in free race was relaxing and enjoyable(...)don't want to or can't devote as much time to master the racing.

That's a contradiction. If you really have that much time at your disposal to just kill it by roaming games, you might as well practice instead. Just a thought.
Finally, to address your question: Games always had an inherent goal, that is an achievement within a game that required practice and repeated play to reach. It's not as if we were good at WO from the beginning you know? It took endless hours of play. And believe me, it was not always fun, more like hard work. But that's ok, because WO always stood for "hard" and the thought of being good at something difficult is always motivating and keeps you on your toes. Finishing a game was a satisfying, rewarding experience, because it took skill. With games hitting the mass-market producers had to adopt to people that would not invest that much time in games, thus don't have the required skill to beat them. The consequences where easier games overall and in particular the advent of difficulty levels. The problem with that is, that now that a wider target-audience should be able to complete a game, the focus was shifted from actually playing and getting better to investing a certain amount of time which ensured one to play through the game. The difference between finishing and giving up vanished and instead became a difference of conditions (easy,normal,hard,...) under which that goal was achieved. Both, the good player and the beginner would reach their goal. It's only, that the beginner feels false accomplishment and the better player feels betrayed, because although he mastered the game there's no reward from the game itself. Pure had concept art for Gold medals, Fusion and XL the almighty Piranha, WO3 prototype tracks and ships. Pulse on the other hand? I finished the grid with all Golds (236) in about 15 hours and got nothing. Not even the feeling of achievement because it was too damn easy. So why would a good player waste time when he might as well finish a game on easy level in a fraction of time, when there's no reward anyway? The crux is, that if there were, casual gamers would whine again about their not being able to see everything from the game, although they paid for it. See, we're I'm going with that? No? I don't any more either. Rant over.

[master bruce]

I do wish we got something for getting all golds in a grid...as of now, I guess I derive some satisfaction in the superficial reward of having a good looking grid that's all completed

I've logged in 26 hours and have over 140 golds