Barrel Rolls in HD

[leungbok]

Please Sat, don't become creationist !

[Lance]

"Lance - is that really true about evolution?"

IMO> Yeah, that's true; just take humans for example. Not much prospect of continued existence there.

I'm hoping that's true of barrel rolls in WO, too.

[SaturnReturn]

Hmm, I see more what you mean now. Cool. Leungbok - don't worry, I don't believe in that either.

[DISRUPTOR]

An easy solution to this barrel roll debate could be, the players who dislike using barrels rolls, disable them when setting up the game. You may find trouble finding as many games but at least you would not have to worried about losing to a player using a barrel roll.

[Aeroracer]

hahaha 25 pages of crap on BR's..ban them ..keep them..ban..them..and disruptor say turn them off in options if you dont like them..cool. Now why didnt i think of that.

Actually i quite like barrel rolls. well only on the tracks i know all the secret locations and can br on.

[DISRUPTOR]

LMAO what a way to put it.

[LordVonPS3]

I can't help but feel that, if this were really true, you would just play online with your friends and set the barrel roll option to "off". That was provided for those who don't like barrel rolls, so that can't really be used as an excuse not to play the game. As leungbok says, you can play almost all of it without barrel rolls. Beat Zico won't be possible without them, but that's just one trophy, and if it's really about playing with friends, then trophies shouldn't be much of a bother.

Just because you can switch BR's off doesn't mean you should do if you don't like them. You need to better understand that we've all been told that BR's are integral to the game, therefore it would be wrong (going against the intended experience) to turn them off just for online play.

I have already explained why I find the trophies somewhat annoying.

Okay folks, it seems I am still not getting through, so allow me to put it another way by posing this simple question...

Q) Do bears crap in the woods?
A) We all know they do. Pretending you can't see or hear them won't mask the stink.

Turning BR's off for online play with friends is NOT a solution. It's like trying to ignore the credit crunch by staying indoors!

The rest of the world uses BR's. I've been exposed to them & won races using them. Other people however find that BR's are easy to forget about. They're also the sort of feature that many people want to forget about - because they shatter the futuristic realism of the series. BR's are just like the PtT button - that's why no-one talks online in WOHD. Just because we're told BR's are an integral part of the game doesn't mean all WOHD players are going crazy trying to do them on every bit of every circuit just to find out where they can possibly be done. Nope. Instead, people just forget about them & blame the game for being too hard when they fail to win yet another 1p novice race on venom.

Fine - what's done is done with WOHD, but SL extended WOHD with Fury, so how about throwing the old school WipEout and 2097 players a bone?

SL doesn't need to change the main Wipeout HD game. SL doesn't need to change Fury. SL doesn't need to change anything. SL should simply add to it. It wouldn't hurt WOHD to add in what I've described. It would just be giving gamers another option.

[Darkdrium777]

Objective:

The main problem with Barrel Rolls is that they were always partly luck based. In PurE and Pulse, the Barrel Rolls often did not work because of framerate issues. In WipEout HD, at the beginning, it started off well, Barrel Rolls had a very high success rate. But it went as low as PurE's success rate with Update 1.30, because of various bugs. It appears now that they have fixed this issue entirely with Update 2.00. Objectively, this is/was my main beef against Barrel Rolls (Or any other high-skill move.) The fact that they did not work every single time you wanted to do one. If they can guarantee it working then leave them, if not yank them, forever.

Subjective:

I find that Barrel Rolls provide a new (well it's not so new anymore) gameplay tactic to WipEout. It's skillful, rewarding, but dangerous, and we've all discussed that. Something to do when jumping, a little arcade-like, and it increases the sense of competition ("Gotta make this Barrel Roll and prevent him from doing so.")
However, it is true that we have lost the racing and tight lines aspect for the most bumpy line, a little only (Not counting wall-hacking glitches and etc.) We still need to have tight lines and drive well, near perfection. Subjectively I do not know what I would vote (strangely), as removing them would bring us back, unless they can implement something else as interesting as Barrel Rolls. But the fact that we lose a bit of this "perfect line" aspect makes me doubt about voting Yes.



Though I have already voted Yes on this poll a long time ago, I find it's no longer valid and would like to be able to retract it (I can't).

[Frances_Penfold]

In PurE and Pulse, the Barrel Rolls often did not work because of framerate issues...

... when playing multiplayer. They work more or less perfectly for time trials. IMHO this one reasons why Pure/Pulse are still really good for setting lap/track records but have clearly been surpassed by WOHD for multiplayer

Anyway, I basically agree with Darkdrium (my post was buried somewhere on the previous page)-- BRs are fun and have added an extra layer of strategy to Wipeout but I wouldn't mind something different in the next iteration of the franchise.

[shapealot]

i love BRs it makes the game so much more interesting IMO. a couple of my friends had this game for a while telling me how good it was an i should buy it but i personally didnt like racing games. its only when i was watching XBARNSTERX doin laps filled with insane BRs an shortcuts i thought that maybe this racing game is a bit different an has something else to offer. i ride BMX an do free running/gymnastics so to me BRs are like tricks, hard to learn but look amazing when mastered, its what attracted me to the game.

[LordVonPS3]

BRs are fun and have added an extra layer of strategy to Wipeout but I wouldn't mind something different in the next iteration of the franchise.

Why wait for the next iteration? Why not just extend the existing game with some new campaign modes & craft that can't do barrel rolls? The game engine is all there, it works & it's good. I think it would be better to take advantage of that & build on it in the same fashion that the developers working on Warhawk and Burnout Paradise built on those games.

[Frances_Penfold]

That's a fair question. I guess my feeling is that the courses in Pure/Pulse (and by extension, WOHD) are carefully built around barrel rolls-- the contours of each track deliberately designed to permit a reasonable number per lap.

I suspect that new courses designed around an alternate boost mechanic might be tailored to that boost mechanic?

i love BRs it makes the game so much more interesting IMO. a couple of my friends had this game for a while telling me how good it was an i should buy it but i personally didnt like racing games. its only when i was watching XBARNSTERX doin laps filled with insane BRs an shortcuts i thought that maybe this racing game is a bit different an has something else to offer. i ride BMX an do free running/gymnastics so to me BRs are like tricks, hard to learn but look amazing when mastered, its what attracted me to the game.

This is why I think SL included BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD-- it made the game "fresh" and "different" and thus appealing to a broader audience. As cool as the classic games in the Wipeout lineage are, it was pretty clear that the franchise had to a reach a broader audience to become economically viable. My guess is that inclusion of the barrel rolls was probably deemed as one way to accomplish this.

Put another way-- I don't think that the back/forth arguments by a bunch of nerdy Wipeout hobbyists (myself included) really matters to Sony's long-term plans for the franchise. What *does* matter is catching the attention of new gamers in a crowded marketplace.

[Aeroracer]

i thinkk you look into this too much..i believe sony put BR's into the game cos they thought it was cool and made wipeout a better game. I think there here to stay and in next game we will get another option as well, maybe like loop the loop so you can shoot player up the butt or something.side way flying so you can go though a new super narrow shortcut they put in the track.

[SaturnReturn]

Just because you can switch BR's off doesn't mean you should do if you don't like them. You need to better understand that we've all been told that BR's are integral to the game, therefore it would be wrong (going against the intended experience) to turn them off just for online play.

My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends.

Your whole point about playing with friends who also don't like barrel rolls seemed to be a separate one to the point about the experience and realism etc. You are quite clearly implying that barrel rolls are preventing you from enjoying the game online against your equally barrel roll loathing friends. If you don't like them, then an option exists such that you can create an online game without them. All your friends who don't like them can join in and you can all have a big fun game without the barrel rolls. Just because others are having games elsewhere with barrel rolls in doesn't make any odds. Essentially, woods, bears, and the crap of bears, would exist elsewhere, but your own person "online with friends" wood would have no bears, so nothing should be preventing you from frolicking in them. To purposely choose a woods with lots of bears over one with no bears, when you don't like bears or their crap, just because those bears exist, would seem like a "paw" () decision.

[Aeroracer]

well said mr saturn..The Guy is talking scrub talk..If he knew and could perform all the BR's i bet 5 euro's he would vote to keep them in and would love them to bits.maybe im wrong but i don't think so on this occassion

and as you said along with that other player if you dont want BR' turn them off..but good luck in finding a game.

edit..Mmmm maybe i was a bit harsh. maybe you dont like BR's cos you like wipeout 2097 so much.if thats case i take back what i said..

[SaturnReturn]

I'm not sure it's about being able to perform them or not. I can do most of them, but am myself getting a bit tired of them. The novelty has worn off slightly. I wouldn't call it scrub talk, but I do think it's coming from the wrong direction - one which is more about HD not being 2097, and finding reasons not to like it for not being 2097.

I think for LordVonPS3, and others too, lots of others, the crux of the matter is that HD isn't 2097, and barrel rolls, to them, are a big part of why not. I personally remain unconvinced that HD can be made to feel like 2097, even with faster BR-less ships or recreated tracks. I think the whole physics and feel of the game would still be completely different. So I fear even 2097-alike add-ons would be a big disappointment for the 2097 fans.

[Aeroracer]

wohd could never be like old wipeouts cos the airbrakes are different.i played wipeout one the other day..loaded from ps store and when u air brake u drift sideways.lots of sideway movement.they could motre likey turn ridge racer into wipeout 2097 easier than wohd

[LordVonPS3]

I'm not sure it's about being able to perform them or not. I can do most of them, but am myself getting a bit tired of them. The novelty has worn off slightly. I wouldn't call it scrub talk, but I do think it's coming from the wrong direction - one which is more about HD not being 2097, and finding reasons not to like it for not being 2097.

I think for LordVonPS3, and others too, lots of others, the crux of the matter is that HD isn't 2097, and barrel rolls, to them, are a big part of why not. I personally remain unconvinced that HD can be made to feel like 2097, even with faster BR-less ships or recreated tracks. I think the whole physics and feel of the game would still be completely different. So I fear even 2097-alike add-ons would be a big disappointment for the 2097 fans.

Actually, I'm not just talking about 2097. In some ways the original WipEout is better than 2097 as well as WOHD.

The crux of my argument is that barrel rolls have nothing to do with futuristic racing or any sort of racing in general. Hovercraft, cars, anti-gravity vehicles, etc, whatever you like - don't do barrel rolls. Even if they could or did - they wouldn't gain any extra speed for doing them. In fact, they'd lose speed.

I've always thought of WipEout and 2097 as F3600 anti-gravity racing simulations. The craft in those games didn't need to do barrel rolls for the game to be fast - or hard. Those games are about mastering the tracks and vehicles whilst taking advantage of the weapons. The weapons in the Wipeout series are the 'gimmick'. SL could have built on the weapon set or added moving track sections. The series didn't need a track related speed boost gimmick - cleverly placed speed pads would offer the same effect without the Street Fighter control nonsense.

I can accept perfectly that WOHD is the game SL wanted to make and it is what it is, so I don't think it should be changed now - too many people have got used to it and the trophies like Beat Zico need to stay - and be left alone. The new craft handling (airbrakes included) - is what it is and (although different to 2097,) it is very good and doesn't need changing. At the same time, I don't see any problem extending the game with tracks and new craft that fly slightly faster - but don't do barrel rolls. My 'excuse' to allow this feature - and keep canon - is to 'bring back the 2097 craft', because they never did barrel rolls - and they look better than the WipEout craft. If they're faster than the WOHD craft - even better. The WOHD speeds < Rapier feel slower than Venom on WipEout! Every WipEout fan would like to see the WipEout and 2097 tracks in HD, so my recommendation was to roll the whole lot up and release it as either 1 or 2 add on packs.

I think a lot of people would prefer and pay for such an expansion over and above the classic WOHD campaign + multiplayer.

[SaturnReturn]

For the most part, I have no problem with that last post. It's largely fair enough. But it is more about HD being like the original games isn't it, and less about the actual barrel rolls? If they release an expansion with 2097 ships that don't do barrel rolls, then, when you play online, people will still be doing barrel rolls all around you if they're using the HD ships that can do barrel rolls. So, on the basis of your earlier post, wouldn't you still be where you were before? Wouldn't the only was to not be exposed to barrel rolls when racing others online be to have a race only with 2097 ships, or turning BRs off? Otherwise bears will be crapping all around you.

I'm not trying to say it couldn't work, but just in terms of barrel rolls being a part of the game, wouldn't they still be? How would you see it being implemented as an expansion? Wouldn't it be better as a new iteration, a new game, as Frances_Penfold suggested earlier? Otherwise, taking the game as a whole, barrel rolls will still be a big part of it.

[yeldar2097]

Barrel Roll = Win