Barrel Rolls in HD

[kaori]

I have to say though, I think it would have been better if the game never had barrel rolls. I'd much rather focus on racing line & hitting the boost pads.

Do you really believe that to beat a record, you just have to do barell rolls ?
Please, look some videos of pirhapac or leungbok, and you'll see this guy have

a sense of the trajectory out of the ordinary.

[graeble]

o' ye gods!
leungbok's last lap is amazing.

[LordVonPS3]

Do you really believe that to beat a record, you just have to do barell rolls ?
Please, look some videos of pirhapac or leungbok, and you'll see this guy have

a sense of the trajectory out of the ordinary.

Those videos look like they're all running at speeds faster than Phantom? I'd certainly love to hear about anyone 'beating Zico' to get a gold trophy without doing any barrel rolls.

Quite clearly it is too late to do anything about barrel rolls in the main HD campaign now, it is what it is... I can live with that and it's something I won't care too much about once I've finished the game, but I'll lament that nothing was done to improve the situation and it might even keep me from going back to it... Zone mode on the other hand really doesn't need barrel rolls and for me at least - that makes it *more* interesting.

The whole concept of barrel rolls is just a bit much for what some of us want from a futuristic game. If I could barrel roll my car off a wall and get a speed boost I'd be doing it everyday. Really, the idea is that silly - and I shouldn't have to apologize for someone else's decision to include this feature / trick.

Anyway, my suggestion was to introduce a couple of new challenge modes akin to 2097 at HD's faster speeds and to take that opportunity to appease some of us old school WipEout fans by reintroducing the 2097 craft & remove barrel rolls. I'm not saying it will, but it could pull in a lot of gamers who were put off.

A 2097 pack would be good business, it would encourage more people to buy the game + packs and maybe even to buy more PS3's. Wipeout HD should continue to get Studio Liverpool's support through updates and packs. It would be a crime to leave it at Fury!

[yeldar2097]

Barrel Roll = win

[Darkdrium777]

Those videos look like they're all running at speeds faster than Phantom?

No...

[lunar]

I shouldn't have to apologize for someone else's decision to include this feature / trick.

Indeed. You didn`t say that people "just" have to barrel roll in order to get good times. That`s not true, as we all know I agree with a lot of your points, but I think the developers love barrel rolls and don`t think they`re silly at all, so we`re not onto a winner here

[Aeroracer]

I dont like BR's too much but then i dont know all the secret locations for them yet or can pull off all the low rolls, if i did i would love them. But i am honest into my reason for disliking them, they dont effect the flow or action of the game, just your race times and a position on the podium.

BR's are part of the game and probally will be in future. Get used to them.
They do make a record SL and TT but online racing BR's are a real gamble and can get you blown up.It add to the strategy and action.

It allows race leader position to shift in some instances.

[lunar]

I`ve been barrel rolling my ass off since Wipeout Pure came out in the US in March 2005, so I`m very used to them. I`m bored of them. They are not a new concept and if the game is to evolve at all SL should think of something else in future imo. This thread was also intended for people to come up with ideas for what could replace BRs or how they could evolve. As has been pointed out, the risk/reward system with BRs is great when it works, but for a lot of people they are also silly and excessive in the amount you can do, and for many people they make no sense in a racing game which is why these people don`t like them.

[leungbok]

Yes, but lot of people doesn't like them for the same reasons as Jasmin, and few have the honesty to admit it
But it's always a good excuse to use when people wants to reach top ranks on TT/sl, and don't succeed.

On avalon's events, you can just hope for 6 BR in a whole race (1 per lap) and if you can escape from ramming and chained the perfect laps . Look at Wowo's records for example, he's good for BR ok, but one BR per lap, EVERYBODY CAN DO IT, so what's the difference ? Maybe he has good lines too (or he races at subsonic speed while others are in phantom races ) !
Some pilots like Mad-Ice, aren't big BR's fans, but they uses them to compete on TT/sl boards, and most important, they don't complains ! They plays the game instead of speaking and explaining why they have not the rank they deserves
To have ace's results, people must act as aces first !

I also know that's not the case for all the wipeout's fans ! Some, simply don't like BR because it changes a little the gameplay. I was very pleased with the 3 first wipeout's gameplay ! Anyway, i just adjust everytime to the new stuff, and i like that ! As an example, i had problems to correctly use sideshift, but it's a new possibility offered, that you can add at your piloting techniques. Like barrel rolls !

Sorry, for this post's mood, but it becomes really boring to see people crying instead of training, or maybe better, accepts that others can just be better, what's the problem with that ? It's a game, not a job (and there's other racers without BR, even other wipeouts) !
I accept people's ego, but i have issues with people with ego which fails at the first difficulty and searches for excuses.

[lunar]

What makes you assume that this is about results and rankings? I`m talking about the gameplay, not the rankings. I didn`t mention them or bring the subject up. It`s not me who keeps bringing that into it. I don`t know who these people are who you say use BRs as "excuses". Rankings have nothing to do with it I just don`t like barrel rolls. We are able to discuss Wipeout 3 SE without getting bitter about shortcuts and turbo scraping, so can`t we discuss Barrel Rolls without making it personal and about egos? Sorry. Forget it.

[leungbok]

My response was not specially to your post, Lunar
It was more for people complaining about barrel rolls, because when they try to reach top ranks on tt, they can't (because off course of those *?#!* BR !).
Franckly, it's easy to play wipeout without doing any BR, you can even beat elite AI without, and have lot of fun doing races or tournaments ! So, what's the problem ? IMO, people compares to others on the ranking table (the problem comes from that !) and they'd loves being on top, but *?#!* BR prevents them to reach that goal !
To resume what i mean, if you don't want to compete on the rankings and just have fun, there's no reason to complains about br because YOU CAN PLAY WITHOUT !!
You can even be competitive without (wowo did his phantom tt race on moa reverse without any br ).

[Aeroracer]

@lunar...i do not think leungbok is getting personal with you, his post has many valid points in it.

like many people who cry about BR's are in reality just crap pilots looking for an excuse for why they just got ownedon the track.there may be a few players who legitimatly do not like BR's for reasons as stated,but probally not to many.

Do not take offence at this statemen tif you know deep down this dos'nt apply to you.this is just aimed at cry baby's, they know who they are.

as for alternate replacement for BR's....i liked the turbo boost in ridge racer. i liked the way you powered up the turbo by doing some flashy driffting..

maybe you could have a boost that builds up on perfect racing. dont hit walls and tubo builds faster.

[lunar]

thanks guys, sorry if I was a bit prickly there

I like your ideas Jasmine, building boost somehow. Didn`t someone have an idea to use BRs as a way to charge a boost meter? Rather than giving you instant boost they add to your "boost store" which you later trigger when you want it.

[yeldar2097]

BR = win

they are my 3rd love, 1st and 2nd being PS3 and WOHD respectively

[LordVonPS3]

LOL guys. Come on! Your arguments against "anti-BR" people aren't representing what those people think at all.

Here's what I know to be true...

FIRST... I really don't care about the WOHD world rankings. What affects me the most is my friends rankings and my friends either aren't into WOHD as much as they were into WipEout & 2097, or they're not into it at all. My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends. I'm not saying I won't play against strangers, I've already done that & won a couple of online WOHD trophies. For me - playing against strangers is not as much fun as playing against people I know & can happily abuse & get abuse from after we've all just got home from the pub. That is one of the things that makes Warhawk a great & often played game! I'll also make a point here about "Push to Talk" (PtT) in WOHD. It's just another button to press, so when people are focusing on doing barrel rolls they aren't going to remember to flick their finger to PtT! It really is common sense and epic fail all at the same time.

SECOND... Trophies. I'm not a massive trophy collector, but I think of trophies as part of completing a game. Games are often huge these days and many people haven't got the time to bash through 100 odd 'cells' AND collect 30 odd trophies whilst working and having a girlfriend / wife / children. I loved the WipEout & 2097 campaign / challenge modes. Simple, effective, completable in an hour or so. Each trophy to me - is like a challenge mode in itself. The 'Beat Zico' trophy took me hundreds of laps to do (maybe 2 hours?). That's more than an entire gaming session for some people, so it won't be too surprising if few people Platinum WOHD. That has nothing to do with how easy / hard the game is, it's a matter of time, investment and how accessible the game is to 'everyone'. WipEout has never been an easy game series to beat, but WOHD has taken that difficulty level and then stretched it out to tens if not hundreds of hours. The Zico trophy was an interesting challenge and it kept me going until I equaled the time at first (getting the trophy) and then actually beat it. It has got NOTHING to do with jealousy of other WOHD ranking players, or my racing ability. The key to getting this trophy is all about barrel rolls - which frankly is sod all to do with racing. On a slight tangent here I want to mention that for a particular car+track configuration for around a month - I was 1st in a GT5P ranking table for both Pro & Standard physics. PD then wiped the rankings with some physics update. Well... Now I have traded GT5P in and will just play on GT4 until GT5 is released. That's a good example of what has happened to all the WipEout fans with WOHD. I know I can race and on good days I can compete. I'm not & don't need to be the best WOHD pilot in the world, but I get a lot of enjoyment from competing against friends. Friends may or may not compete for trophies too... My friends may never 'Beat Zico' and that's most likely because they won't try - and try - and try for 1, 2 or n hours! They have lives! That means I'm back to simply beating WOHD, cell by cell, just for the sake of beating WOHD & collecting a few more trophies. I want my friends to complete the game, talk on and on about what a great achievement that was and give me some incentive to do it myself. No offense to all you fellow WOHDer's but that's how I've found myself here - on this forum.

THIRD...
Ridge Racer 7. I hate the idea of drift = boost building, it's just as silly as barrel roll boosting. It's not realistic, not futuristic, not... Anything! The difference with RR7 is that it's ALL ABOUT DRIFTING round corners - so it doesn't really impact the way you're meant to enjoy the game. Conversely, WOHD is not about barrel rolling around every corner! WOHD is not Street Fighter, so why should it have 'special moves'?! It's ridiculous, it really is.


The only way WOHD is going to recapture some of that old school WipEout / 2097 magic is to make an excuse to reinstate the old formula - without annoying the BR fans (any more than I have done with this post). This post is not really aimed at BR fans, this post is aimed at Studio Liverpool who have done a great job of making a game that they wanted to make. Is it really a case of "TOO BAD" that many WipEout & 2097 fans were looking forward to SL making a game that would especially appeal to them?

Come on Studio Liverpool... How many requests have you had for WipEout + 2097 tracks? How many requests have you had for WipEout + 2097 craft? How many e-mail's did you get complaining about the HUD before you decided the fans mattered enough to throw in a 2097 & Wip3out HUD? We know WOHD is not meant to be WipEout 2097 and despite some of us hoping for a return to that form - we never EXPECTED it to be. You've got our money (and can make even more), but give the old school fans some more of what WE want...

If we had the 2097 craft (no BR's), a new track pack, the old challenge modes reinstated (as I suggested in an earlier post) online for all this + open mic... Well... TEH INTERNETZ would surely be buzzing again!

[Frances_Penfold]

Interesting thread

I am used to BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD and have become rather fond of them. That said, I agree with Lunar that BRs are a component of gameplay that may most need to be evaluated in future. Not that I have any brilliant insights on how to do that-- perhaps some sort of energy storing option that can be released for fast speeds, as has been suggested by others here.

The contention evident in this thread isn't unique to Wipeout-- lots of racing games have some skill-based mechanism for faster speed, and these end up being debated. Mini-turbos in Mario Kart are the same kind of issue.

I guess for me, I don't mourn the inclusion of BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD but I wouldn't mind seeing a different mechanic in future Wipeout games

Franckly, it's easy to play wipeout without doing any BR, you can even beat elite AI without, and have lot of fun doing races or tournaments...
To resume what i mean, if you don't want to compete on the rankings and just have fun, there's no reason to complains about br because YOU CAN PLAY WITHOUT !!

I agree with this basic sentiment, and would add that the same is true for Pure/Pulse-- you can set many highly competitive times on Pure/Pulse without doing a single BR or only one per lap.

On the other hand-- can you really beat elite AI on Sebenco WOHD without doing any barrel rolls? I can't (though I'm not very good at WOHD either).

[leungbok]

We know WOHD is not meant to be WipEout 2097 and despite some of us hoping for a return to that form - we never EXPECTED it to be. You've got our money (and can make even more), but give the old school fans some more of what WE want...

If we had the 2097 craft (no BR's), a new track pack, the old challenge modes reinstated (as I suggested in an earlier post) online for all this + open mic... Well... TEH INTERNETZ would surely be buzzing again!

Don't forget the old graphics, and maybe a mode 7 based game !
Seriously, wipeout has evolved that's all, you must admit that !
Other solution is to play the original wipeout 2097, many members here are playing all wipeouts regularly.
But maybe you don't have time to play that much wipeout, or you leave a game once you finish all cells ?

I love all the wipeouts, but i'm not sure that the 2097 fanbase has the commercial power that you suppose

[Lance]

Just because something evolves, it doesn't mean that the mutation is beneficial to longterm survival of the species.

[leungbok]

Sure Lance, but evolution good or bad is life

[SaturnReturn]

FIRST... I really don't care about the WOHD world rankings. What affects me the most is my friends rankings and my friends either aren't into WOHD as much as they were into WipEout & 2097, or they're not into it at all. My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends.

I can't help but feel that, if this were really true, you would just play online with your friends and set the barrel roll option to "off". That was provided for those who don't like barrel rolls, so that can't really be used as an excuse not to play the game. As leungbok says, you can play almost all of it without barrel rolls. Beat Zico won't be possible without them, but that's just one trophy, and if it's really about playing with friends, then trophies shouldn't be much of a bother.

Lance - is that really true about evolution? I always thought evolution came about as a result of mutations, some of which were beneficial to the species etc. So to some, barrel rolls are a pointless mutation, and not an evolution. But I'm probably wrong. I don't believe in evolution anyway.