Sony Liverpool's Forum Participation

[Darkdrium777]

**DISCLAIMER**

This is in no way an attack on the guys at Sony Liverpool, please do not read it as such. Rather, read it as a series of questions we as the fans currently ask ourselves and that we wish to be answered. Not out of pure selfishness, I think these questions are valid and having them answered should be a top priority for Sony Liverpool.
Also please note I am talking about Sony Liverpool, because they are the developers of the game, but if an aspect has to do with someone outside of Liverpool, replace them in the sentence with that outside person. It's only used as a general term, and I don't think everything is due to Sony Liverpool's fault (In fact I believe they have nothing to do with it).
I appreciate the hard work put into making the game, as I have played countless hours on PurE, Pulse and HD. However, the developer cannot alone sell his game, it needs something else that is cruelly missing for the WipEout franchise in general.

**DISCLAIMER**

Ok, so I am making this thread now, it's been some time since I've started thinking about it, back when ProblemSolver sent me the PM.
And I realize the title might not be accurate enough to encompass the whole issue, so I apologize in advance for that. However, it highlights what I believe is one of the most crucial points in the rest of this series of questions.

We are all aware as forum members what goes on in here I think. And we have a long memory. We know that some of the developers of the game post here:
Colin Berry
John Eggleton
Chris Roberts
Paul Tweedle
"captaingrim" (If you wish your real name to be displayed send a message, I have no idea what it is)
There are more, and sorry if I forget them it is because I personally do not remember the forum names as I have not been here long enough to remember them (Some of these posts date way back before I even started reading this forum).

Now, again I state that I appreciate greatly every bit of information these guys give us in their posts. It would be horribly selfish not to, and I believe you have never seen me not thank them for every informational post they make. If it ever happened, I thank you again now.

But, and here lies the problem. And I state once more that it is more likely the problem comes from somewhere outside of Studio Liverpool. The information coming out about the WipEout franchise in general is too small, sparse or whatever adjective you wish to use (Remember my main language is French, so some words may be used incorrectly). You may think it is incredibly selfish to say that (And I would agree with you), but wait and allow me to explain.

Here are all the announcements posted by the five I mentioned earlier, or at least those that I could find.
"V1.40 tomorrow!"
Colin Berry's threads
"7:20pm GMT. Just a few hours to go ..."
Please look at the post dates, and you will notice these announcements seem few and far between. Now, that doesn't mean they don't count. They still do, of course! However there is a problem when such a quote comes up:

That is why they have press days, and E3s and the like. You cant necessarily expect a company to make announcements via a fansite, ok I am 100% sure someone can find an example where that is done, but it is not the norm.

Here is ProblemSolver's stance, here is my reply to this quote as well as ProblemSolver.
I think it illustrates the problem, or at least the problem in my eyes. We have many examples of official communities like forums and such for some of the biggest developers in the industry (EA for crying out lout, EA).
It is understandable that Sony Liverpool might not have such means, as they are considerably smaller in size (I believe), but I raise the question in my reply: "Shouldn't this forum be considered as the official WipEout/Sony Liverpool community?"
Why I ask this is because we have many developers of the game posting here, and the administrator (infoxicated) as far as I know from the credits manuals is still credited as the story writer. It probably cannot bear the official title for many reasons unknown to me, but right now it seems like it is acting like it, no?
I don't care if it bears the official title, and I believe this quote from Paul Tweedle already means they consider it like that:

I also want to assure you we do listen and, as Colin has said in another thread, it is not normally the team's job to directly communicate with the fans but, for Wipeoutzone.com, we make exceptions, because we understand and appreciate how important you guys are to this game franchise.

The only thing I hope is that you consider people outside of this forum important as well. For now, as I will illustrate further down, only the "classic" stuff has been done, and I will explain why I think it's wrong.
Also, Paul, you are human beings. You can talk about other things than DLC development or release dates. How about you guys join us for games or something? Look at Bioware's forum, they've got Chris Priestly as a community manager in the Mass Effect section, and he interacts day to day with the fans and the owners of the game. We have Jeff Rubenstein on the PlayStation Blog, he has the same job. You don't have community managers, you probably don't need them I think, but you shouldn't stop human interactions because of this (And this is where the thread title comes into play). Again, why don't you guys play and discuss stuff with us more, outside of the game? I know there is life outside, no need to patronize me on this, but why not drop in a message say a little more frequently?

Also questioned is the apparent lack of advertising or announcements from Sony Computer Entertainment or Sony Liverpool. Sure, I have quoted the threads above, and there are the announcements on the PlayStation Blog and probably elsewhere. But that's it. There is nothing else. There are a few trailers, the screenshot galleries, classical stuff on sites like IGN.com and Gamespot, but nothing more.
Compare this with Killzone 2. Or Infamous. I don't even have to explain, you get the idea. But don't you believe WipEout HD deserves better, deserves more recognition? I do. And I find it sad that Sony disagrees/doesn't care.
I mean, how many titles have you got that are as polished as WipEout HD, running 1080p 60FPS online or off, split screen, custom soundtrack, trophies, and so on?! That is not to say Killzone 2 has less polish, it is an equally great game. But when I see more advertising for PAIN than WipEout HD, there is a problem (You might enjoy PAIN, I don't know, but it's not on the same level as WipEout HD).
Again, ProblemSolver in his post questions the lack of advertising and information sharing, I do as well twice, and JABBERJAW does as well.
Keep in mind this isn't lashing out or attacking Sony Liverpool, this is just simple confusion and frustration when facing an apparently simple situation where the simple solution (Giving out more information) is apparently ignored, and it has been this way for so long now. Why is SCEE/SCEA so quiet about one of the franchises that helped define the PS1? WHY?! I think it's quite clear that we three don't know why.
Also, please consider answering this soon (Forward to marketing department or who/whatever is in charge)

What we want is not developer insight or special informations about the games, we only want to know what is going on. And what is going on right now? We have no idea. We know DLC is WIP for HD. We don't know what, when, where, how much. We know WipEout XL/2097 has been rated by the ESRB for release as a PS1 Classic. We don't know when, where, how much. We know Pulse is being ported to the PS2. We don't know when, where, how much.
It should come to no surprise that there are so few WipEout players in the world, considering what we know, and what we don't know. Also, keep in mind that everything we know, still has yet to be confirmed by Sony. There hasn't been an announcement about DLC. There hasn't been an announcement about XL/2097 appearing on the PlayStation Store any time soon. There hasn't been an announcement about WipEout Pulse on PS2. How do you expect any good result then?

-10,000 characters limit-

[Darkdrium777]

-10,000 characters limit-

So, guys. A lot of you have been participating in this forum longer than I. Please, share your views on this issue. I call it issue, but really it's more questioning by everyone. It would also be super cool if a discussion about this with SL was initiated, though I don't know if it will be possible for them to break the rules that have prevented them so far from doing exactly what I think should be done for the franchise just in order to discuss this. For now I expect only members to reply, so what do you think?
If you have any ideas or related questions or whatever you can bring to the table, don't be afraid to do so. I realize it's a sensible subject, I've tried my best to not offend anyone, and I apologize now if I ever did. Please be careful yourselves.

And again, thank you SL for one of the best games I've ever played. I hope you see this as a wish from me that you improve upon this situation somehow, through SCEA/SCEE or whoever, so that the game gains more recognition in the future, and not some selfish attack which I truly hope it doesn't come across as.



Also, if this has been put in the wrong section, feel free to move it to the right one.

EDIT: I guess, succinctly this is what I am asking:

1. How come information about updates and related to the games come out right at the release of these updates? The best we've had was Paul or Daimion coming and saying: "Hey, we are going to release a patch tomorrow." Why not sooner? 1.30 was pretty big stuff, yet it seems it passes on as a minor update. Big firmware updates for the PS3 come weeks in advance, big updates for other games come a few days in advance, sometimes weeks even. WipEout it always seems a day to day basis.

2. Why can't you guys participate more in the forums for other non-related stuff? Like I said, share races with us, can that happen?

3.Why isn't there more stuff done to promote WipEout? It's a high quality franchise, with great features, graphics, gameplay and music. Why isn't anything done beyond the few trailers and screenshots? WipEout HD was shown at E3 only for a few minutes in total, yet it's better than some titles I've seen there on the screen longer. Can something be done there too?

[KIGO1987]

5 stars for this thread Darkdrium. Nice theseus here, im sure this theseus worthy of a high distinction grade

Ive sent a PM to Paul about the marketing strategies SL use on the Wipeout gaming franchise. He was very busy to reply. But it is interesting how they intent to reach newer potential buyers. I want to see this game, and the next coming releases to sell beyond its targets to ensure the continual success of this game series.

[H3avyM3tal]

Before I say what I am about to say, please understand that I am in no way against this idea, and it's not my intention to hurt or denounce anyone here (esspecially you, Darkdrium777) or from SL. I will comment only on the game-related info participation:

Indeed a very good point, but I think we should have all our facts straight before we demand something like this (which to me seems like a demands thread). First of all I don't think it is right to put SL and EA ,or other companies that are mentioned, in the same category of "% of the market". I think it is quite obvious that the WO franchise is not a vast one in terms of users, and it is nore of a cult favorite at this point. Plus, it is a racing game at its core. You don't see Polyphony Digital post like crazy over at GTplanet. Plus, you too, Dd777 (sorry, long name ), believe that SL are few in numbers. If your point on this is complaining that we don't get enough info on the game, then to this I say company policy or something like this. Sony decides where the budget goes to I think, and there are game that are much more imporatnt to them - because lets face it - alot more people would rather play KZ2 or Infamous then to play WO.

With that said - we got WO nontheless!!! And this is a thing I love about Sony - they don't abandon easily everything. There are still posts here with info about upcoming updates. Anyway my point is we still get info. But alas, sony is not the best company when it comes to publicity, and with that comes the fact that WO is not the most successful game on their list. They would rather invest money in GOW3 then this, and with good reason on their side - GOW brings many more gamers to sony that WO ever will. But again, we still have WO. Sony is keeping it alive!

Anyway, this is what I have to say on this particular matter. On the matter of participation regarding normal daily stuff, well, this is something for SL to decide. Please, if I said anything out of place or wrong, do correct me. I would love to see what everyone has to say about this. Good thing that this is a forum with adults more then not.

Just to clarify - I think WO is alot better than MANY of the games out there, and I agree it should get much better publicity.

[infoxicated]

Studio Liverpool does not do any promotion themselves, other than occasionally when some journalists might visit prior to a launch. No individual studios do. This is because all SCEE marketing and PR is done chiefly through the headquarters in London and by the offices in each individual territory. In Northern America it's SCEA who would promote the game.

For example, when the F1 game was being marketed, the promotion in Spain would chiefly feature Fernando Alonso, while in Germany they'd promote the game using Michael Schumacher. In Britain, because we didn't have a Brit winning races at the time to help sell the title, it would be advertised with something generic - usually 30 seconds selling the lifestyle of an F1 driver with the suggestion that playing the game was one of the stepping stones to attaining that.

Sometimes you'd nod and smile and agree that the marketing team had done the best they could considering David Coulthard would never amount to anything and, well, that Jenson Button guy is all hype and no substance - it's not like he regularly finished in the points, let alone won a race. How times change.

Other times you'd wonder what they were trying to convey, because it didn't really sell the features of the game. F104 had specular highlighting on the road, classic cars, all the tracks, all the drivers, bizarre "spinning on a central axis"... okay, that's not a feature, but that's what it did... yet none of those were mentioned in the advert, from what I recall.

Also (and this is just how I saw it - I could be wrong), I think the folks in the London responsible for PR preferred to show titles like SingStar, The Getaway, EyeToy, and TIF/WTS over WipEout because they were made in the London Studio. So the producers on those titles could pester the product manager (dude in charge of getting the game some magazine time or advertising spend) face to face and they seemed to get all the limelight at the expense of titles made elsewhere.

I lost count of the number of times Phil Harrison would be creaming himself over stuff made in London, like The Getaway and its equally gash sequel, or even third (later first) party stuff like Killzone or Pursuit Force, yet fail to give even a passing mention to F1 or WipEout, despite the fact that WipEout Pure & F1 were million selling titles.

The same was true, I think, of SCEA when it came to promoting WipEout. I'm sure they preferred to be spending their marketing dollars on games made by SCEA studios, like God of War, Ratchet & Clank, and SOCOM to ensure their success. Promoting WipEout, which hadn't really done particularly well in Northern America anyway, was most likely an after thought.

Gotta put my hand up and say that, whoever was the product manager for Pure that got the North American territory website built done a good job. He used a draft version of the back story and the whole thing failed to tie in with what we were doing in Europe, admittedly, but the intentions were good and if communication had been a bit better we could probably have made the most of it. Hey ho.

With regards to this being an official site... well, that wouldn't happen. If it doesn't sit on Sony servers and the marketing folk don't agree to promote it, then it wouldn't make any difference. I point you to WipEout-Game.com as proof of that. It wasn't the idea of the marketing department down on London, so it didn't get any support or any input from them and, ultimately, the site was left to rot the second I left the building because it's easier to promote a Flash advert than it is to build and maintain a community site.

A community site needs moderators, updates, localisation, to conform to branding standards - all that kind of thing. That's not the kind of expense Sony are going to undertake for each of the games they publish. Even the big AAA (whatever that means) titles usually get the Flashvert + sub-forum on the official PlayStation boards treatment. It's not just Sony, either - look at NAMCO, SEGA, and the other publishers - a game with a serviced community is the exception rather than the rule.

Ultimately, WipEout isn't an easy game to promote, either. It isn't cutesy or mass market. It's difficult and it looks difficult, too. Hardcore gamers like it and there's a small but passionate fan base that'll buy it regardless of whether it's promoted or not.

But you're never going to see WipEout (especially not when it's a PSN title with 8 race tracks) get the same kind of push that Killzone 2, inFAMOUS, and Gran Turismo get.

[kanar]

5 stars too here. My major complaint is about marketing. A jewel like wipeout hd deserved a promotion campaign AND a blu-ray. PAIN & david asselhoff deserved nothing. All the psn games are ****. And this is not because we're addicted to death here that we're not able to understand Sony marketing is NONSENSE. And what about the other ps3 games & the so-called next gen revolution? all we can see around is utter crap everywhere, 15/25 or woaw 30fps games & 640x480 upscalled to death resolutions. Wipeout Hd is just outstanding regarding ingame engine, resolution, fps... At least it would have been great to see some short adds on tv. Great input Rob. I know it's not the first time I say that but in France they promoted wipeout 1 in nightclubs. I believe it was a great idea.

[KIGO1987]

Im sure there is a reason for the marketing by Sony Computer Entertainment and SL for this game which is so limited. Maybe they had a set budget to abide by, where all the costs went on creating the game and paying the staff, leaving nothing aside to sell and promote this product?? Not sure.

If this product where to be advertised even on a extremely short commercial or on some billboards here and there (also on in nightclubs as Kanar said, which would be awesome), im sure this product would sell so much more, and increase the sales of the PS3 units as well, that would be the ultimate success. But i think all companies around the world at this moment in time are tightening their belts big time, to keep there businesses out of the red for the following financial year.

I think major sponsors might be the way to go to get more promotion and advertising out on the product. Get the major artists that feature in the game and promote this product "Wipeout" in the Music CD they sell at the shops with a small cut out inside the CD case. And what about Red Bull, if that where to be feature in the game it would lead to opportunities for this product to be promoted during major events such as the F1 and the Red Bull air race. ****, if some time, effort and money where to be put into the thought of promoting this product some more you might even see the products sales increase tenfold. Wouldn’t that be great, isn’t that what we all want to see the continual success of this series. Sony aren’t dumb, they just have a list of priorities at the moment, and i guess this isn’t really one of them at this stage in time.

[ACE-FLO]

OK - so Sony won't set aside an advertising/marketing budget which will rival other games because this game just doesnt have the awareness - catch 22 if you ask me... I mean you can only create awareness by having a marketing spend, commercially speaking of course.

This doesn't stop 3rd parties from expressing an interest in the game - only, once a game reaches Cult status - as this game has done, it's only Die Hard fans which will go and hunt it out... SO why would 3rd parties - such as Red Bull express an interest in a game which won't give them the same awareness back in terms of per capita response, as they enjoyed once before??? The answer lies in the question...

This situation is a spiral down imho... And the only way forward for positive awareness and promotion does not lie with Sony anymore / or Studio Liverpool... It lies with those enterprising individuals or parties, who can express an interest in the game to such a level - that they will buy the rights to use the images and logos from Wiipeout and promote them in a profitable manner - through - say - clothing...

If Top Shop / Top Man (for arguments sake) bought the licence from Studio Liverpool / Sony to produce apparel with this Wipeout branding (Feisar / Goteki / EG-X etc- you cannot complain that Wipeout artwork is not still en vogue today, it is very good artwork and design which will translate to clothiing very well indeed - Just look at Kanars customs, and the old Wipeout posters circa Psygnosis) - it is a sure fire way to create awareness for the games themselves - and once this awareness is generated, the demand for the game will be apparent, and thus - SL / Sony, will be thinking of revamping a cult classic and tweaking it up for the mainstream...

I really do wish this would happen. I really do. Or else I'll have to buy Epson T-Shirt transfer paper myself and get busy creating my own customs - thank God I have some design experience with Photoshop and Quark!

[Darkdrium777]

I want to see this game, and the next coming releases to sell beyond its targets to ensure the continual success of this game series.

Yes, me too! This is exactly what I wish! I don't know what the situation about it right now, is it successful? Is it all right? I don't expect SL or Sony to come and tell us, but that's what I am worrying about.

As H3avyM3tal and infoxicated have said, WipEout appears to be a franchise dedicated to the hardcore gamers and has a small fanbase, a lot of it located right here. I ask: can this change? Do you think it can change?
It's probably a little too idealistic, I don't know, but what if WipEout was talked about more, would there be more people playing it? I would think so.

As far as this forum being the official community, of course I strongly doubted it would/could happen, infoxicated said the many reasons why. Still, can the developers join us for chat other than about development of the game(s), like races or other types of chat?

[Rubix42]

"I don't know, but what if WipEout was talked about more, would there be more people playing it? I would think so."

I disagree. It's a very hard game. Hard to learn, then hard to beat, and even harder to become competitive. And then you have to have split second reactions to every weapon, mine, bomb, etc that gets dropped on the track. Very few people have the patience to spend on it.

I think the only thing that gets new people into the series now are things like pilot assist, but that is frowned upon by the people here.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised to see the series ever be released in a retail store again.

[TheFrostE]

i just hope they expand the wipeout HD experience

[Motorsagmannen]

even though WO-HD seems to be a game with very low marketing support. this game is one of the few must have games on the psn, as mentioned earlier on this thread and also many times in this forum, the value for money on WO-HD is stupefying. not only is it the smoothest, prettiest and most challenging game out there but its also extremely cheap. i would think that if more people realized this they would by it. but from my personal experience the only adverts i ever saw ( or closest to adverts) were rewievs of the game. and the mentioned few photos and videos on some websites.
and the progression in sony liverpools comunication on the future of WO, or rather the lack of, makes my hope for seeing a DLC on this masterpiece fainter everyday. i still havent lost hope, but every day it seems less likely that we will have a DLC coming

[Darkdrium777]

You should read the when's the dlc coming thread then.

[Motorsagmannen]

i get your point, colin berry`s reply from yesterday kicked my hopes back into overdrive

[KIGO1987]

Im going to ask this question.

Whats the full staff list of the workers at Studio Liverpool, and what positions are them? [ei, graphics designer, team leader, etc]

It'll be very interesting as a business student to see how you guys at Studio Liverpool operate

[NightArh]

It'll be very interesting as a business student to see how you guys at Studio Liverpool operate

Just look into the credits in Pulse

[KIGO1987]

Thats where i found Zico Lou's name actually. How is the man going now days anyway...?.. He should join WZ But that list is dated at November 2007 i think. It would be different now. But relativity the same i guess.

[ACE-FLO]

Will SOny/SL be releasing a new wipeout for the PSP now that Pulse and Pure are Platinumn releases? And with the advent of the PSP Go!!! I think it deserves a lil attention!

[KIGO1987]

Hmm, dont think so, anytime soon.

When you think about it, both PSP Wipeouts. Wipeout Pure and Wipeout Pulse are now available on the Playstation Store. So Wipeout Pure and Wipeout Pulse are now avaiable on the PSP-GO. Thats pretty good.

[ACE-FLO]

I'd imagine they would be thinking about releasing another wipeout for PSP - my reasoning is the fact that both titles (Pure and Pulse) are Platinum titles - and contrary to popular belief - have sold loads and loads of copies - did really well (and that without any major marketing strategy)

I can be hopeful of another release, and quietly confident too...

If SL/Sony is keeping an eye on this topic - There's loads of us who'll get the new Wipeout on PSP if you were to release another - but this time -for pete's sake - please fix the bugs!!! Please! Please!

Know something - I'd welcome the older wipeouts on PSP too - that would be awesome - especially if they added online multiplayer - that would be like - even more awesome!!!