Barrel Rolls in HD

[crawdad62]

Maybe it's just me or maybe I just don't notice it otherwise but if I play online I can do a couple of BR's and I get the low power warning. I don't think I've taken that many hits or hit the wall that much (no more than I would while offline). Do BR's cause a greater reduction in power online? I wouldn't think so.

I end up absorbing weapons constantly just to power up. For me it's pretty much a last lap/last minute decision to BR while online.

[H3avyM3tal]

Sorry for bumping, but;

Having so many ways to race is a great change to your normal racers. It adds many different aspects to play style and thinking. Having br is a good example of when you make choices in racing. It adds a dimention of carful and smart play as opposed to just skill in controlling.

I think in wipeout, being good means knowing to use the game to it's fullest. Using all tools available. And in this game, the more tools you have, the more you need to invest inorder to become good. I understand both sides, but I favor the side that favors BR, because ultimatly, I like an involving racer alot more than a breeze cruize (like RR, which I love btw).

Besided, being able to perform is all about skill, and I see alot of people online with skill that I am striving for. I am good with br, such tools improve your skills

[Axel]

I will never come to like BR. Find it redicolous and annoying to pull off (stick user). But your right about having to use the damn thing. I never use it in multiplayer cause if I win, it feels great.

I didn't mind the turbo boost from WO3. The only problem is that we can easily absorb weapons. So for the method to work, we will need to bring back pit lanes (I miss these ).

Meh I really don't know how they will replace BR.

[djKyoto]

If it was just a button, it would be easier, but yeah I still think barrel rolls are a great addition. I approve of thee.

[blackwiggle]

I don't mind a combination of button pressing,it's just the fact that BR's are linked to the steering I find REALLY annoying.
Unintentional BR'ing at Phantom speed because of quick controller input
The amount of times in last nights Anzac V's France Avalon races that I went to quickly adjust my steering and ended up BR'ing into a wall or off the track drove me nuts.
If it didn't BR it attempted to and I lost shield energy with no boost,so when I did want to BR I couldn't for fear of blowing up.[a few previous contacts with other craft and your shields shot anyway]
Or unintentional BR's with sod all shield energy eliminating myself.
This problem seems to be more due to me using the D-Pad and that one of my controllers seems to be more sensitive to this that the other.
Either way it's a PITA
I envy you guys that can use the sticks,where I don't think you would suffer this to the same degree,I just can't get to grips with them.

[Greenix]

Hmm. I'm undecided on barrel rolls. WipEout HD is the only game of the series I have played that uses BRs so to me using them was part of a learning curve rather then a noticeable change in gameplay mechanics.

On the one hand I feel they do add to the racing experience online - countless times I have had 25-30 energy and I'm coming up to the finish line with another racer slightly infront. I know I don't stand a chance of getting a weapon and barrel rolling will take me down to easy-elimination health. 9 times out of 10 I will take the risk and do that last barrel roll. Then the moment of truth comes, did the other racer have a missile or quake etc? *Contender Eliminated* Damn it! And if they didn't I feel that the risk I took was worth the reward and leaves a feeling of 'Phew'! as I just snatch a higher position.

However, BRs on the other hand are a little unbalanced in a sense when you have higher energy. I find myself doing BR and then instantly absorbing a weapon I dont need. End result is; I've traded a weapon I dont need, such as a cannon when there is nobody infront to unload at, for a boost and lost barely any energy.

And leading on from this idea is the system that means players ahead of the pack just get further ahead without worrying about losing energy as they almost always have a free weapon pad available. Whereas those in the pack are fighting to get a weapon and are already losing health.

Its also cost me 2 new ps3 controllers since HD was released on the store

I think for me it's a case of 'the apple never falls far from the tree' and I've, metaphorically speaking, grown up with barrel rolls and I dont want to see them go because it's what im used to.

As a way of keeping them in the game, maintaining the reward they give and keeping the flow of the game, why not make it so that you can only barrel roll when you have a weapon, and that weapon is taken away from you whether the roll is or isn't successful. That way you cant absorb it to regain health instantly after, you lose the normal 15 energy, and it at least slightly cuts the number of rolls someone in first place is able to do. Continually do BRs and you can't absorb the weapons you've picked up and have low energy. Absorb the weapon before hand and you can't do the BR.

As for the BR activation setting I find that, however much it can drive me up the wall sometimes (pun intended), I still prefer it to be the analgoue/d-pad current setup. As a few of you mentioned in this thread earlier, it does require a bit of skill to pull off a barrel roll, not to mention be pointing in the right direction when you land. This is especially when, if you use analogue, your stick stays stuck in the direction you last pointed it in for the roll thanks to too much wipeout making your controler super floppy

I think I'll vote yes to BR's but only just, the system needs more work done to it imo.

[Alejess]

That’s a really well thought out and balanced reply Greenix. And I agree with practically all of it. In particular, the point about being able to barrel roll with impunity when out in front and ahead of the pack is one that had occurred to me: anything which reduces the chances of tight, close racing is something that needs looking at (conversely of course, someone left behind and chasing a pack will benefit in the same way).

I think your compromise solution is extremely elegant. The best part of it is that it would actually add to the strategic aspect of the game. For example, when a pilot picks up a weapon, he/she now has 3 choices (use, absorb or save for BR) rather than 2.

Of course, the ‘solution’ is only relevant for actual racing rather than Time Trials or Single Laps, but I reckon pilots on both sides of the BR controversy would be reasonably happy for something like this to be implemented.

Edit: just remembered that it wouldn't work for 'no weapons' racing either. Still, the basic principle is a good one: make the choice as to whether to barrel roll or not more strategic, but keep them as influential as they are now when used wisely.

[Greenix]

That's true Alejess. I guess it depends on if you think barrel rolls are an acceptable part of pure line racing. No weapons races, as far as I know, are more a test of a pilot's consistancy and line efficiency - add being able to fly under pressure from a very close opponent. Is a BR more accepted in these types of races? I see them as a big part in time trials and speed laps because to have a top record means you do have to master every aspect of the game and spend a lot of time studying the track etc. I personally see no weapons as a sort of time trial mode. I remember one pilot warning me about no weapon's races with wellington (when I only just started playing WipEout with him) and reffered to them as 'Wellington's Time Trial Mode'. I guess because of this I see BRs as more fitting for no weapon races... and there is the aspect of no weapons to absorb.

Maybe 2 different systems for normal multiplayer races and then no weapons/time trial/speed lap races.

Such a delicate game to try and change without unbalancing other areas.

[Cerium]

I have to agree almost entirely with Greenix's longer post. BRs are nice and I've no problem with them, but it certainly sucks to be in second place, fighting to not only regain energy but also take the person who's in first (and, thus, taking every weapon pad).

Someone suggested a while ago to just leave weapon pads permanently activated in multiplayer as a solution to the weapon pad lag issue. Such a thing would also fix the "balance issue" BRs have with the person who's out front. Of course, this would also effectively turn most multiplayer races into a sort of eliminator mode -- but from what I've been seeing, I don't think people would care too much about that.

Also, how about making it one button? Do we really need a button to change the camera location? How about triangle = barrel roll so I don't have to worry about accidentally doing a barrel roll into a wall or off the track (Sebenco reverse, anyone)?

[eLhabib]

Greenix, that idea of yours is ACE! If you were only able to do a BR while holding a weapon, this would also eliminate BRs completely from TTs, SLs, and no-weapons races - which in my book is a good thing!

I agree, BRs are good for the extra thrill in close races, playing poker with your own shields to win a race. But in my opinion, they belong only there. In a solo event, man versus track, there is no place for them, as far as I'm concerned.

[infoxicated]

It's certainly the best band-aid on the barrel roll wound that's been suggested thus far.

Trouble is - by the time something like this appears in the series, will I still care enough about WipEout to pick it up and give it a try? I've certainly regretted wasting my money on WipEout HD - there'd need to be a massive rethink for me to ever play a post-W3SE edition of the game again.

[mdhay]

Valid points from captain howdy, especially the last bit. Still, I don't like the fact that in order to be competitive in record tables, you have to adjust to barrel rolls - I think that's the major issue everyone here who is contra-BR has with the current system.

How about this: if you do a BR, you get a free weapon pick-up! That way it doesn't force you to use BRs for a quick laptime, but it still gives you an advantage in a race, and you can also choose to take the energy.

How about, you do a BR, and the ship farts?

Seroiusly, I'm not bothered about doing BR's, as I'm confident that the 'Casual Gaming' version of wipEout , the easy one the masses will want to play more, can be obliterated by good old - fasioned weapons off and badass racing lines.

[XBARNSTERX]

Personally i like brs(when they work) so i voted yes. At the end of the day the option to turn them off online is there if you dont, but i have to say i've not seen many of these race types so perhaps the majority of pilots favour them

[Avenger2197]

Or, the majority of pilots who don't like them, know that putting BR's off is a death sentence for any game they create.

I'll use BR's because they are in the game, but if they weren't there I wouldn't miss them. A re-think is in order for the next game though. A "new" speed system that isn't a stunt pulling manuever is definitely needed.

[KIGO1987]

BRs in Wipeout HD has killed the internal view gameplay. Which i have been experiment a bit, well quite a bit on Moa Therma Forward and Reverse. ****ing awesome view to play Wipeout in. The motion sickness that happens when pulling a BR in HD puts me off quite bad.

[Lance]

Did I mention that barrel rolls suck? [and I mean that in a negative way ]

[blackwiggle]

That's why I don't like Sebenco forward ,motion sickness from Cockpit view, which can get pretty bad with the size of my screen
I dread it when that track get selected by a host when racing online.

[Spece2goin]

at least, an option asking the player if he wants to have his internal view twisting or not when rolling would solve this right?

[KIGO1987]

****, check that out. Split on 73 votes each.

Wipeout is really a game where novelty BRs shouldnt be included. Should be about good cornering skills and good flow.

[mic-dk]

Well, it ain't split no more...
(yes, I don't really like BRs - mostly because I'm crap at them!)