(SSGX Origins) Let's make a Wipeout game! This time for real!

[docfo4r]

Thank you.
Oh, yeah sure. Well of course we will discuss the name, symbol, effect, damage etc. of the weapons but for now I wanted to hand out the list to zero and for us all to make a decision which and how many weapons should be used for SSGX.

[vincoof]

That's an impressive compilation of "weapons" you have there.

Shields

To make the game looking like WipEout, I'd like to quote Nick Burcombe about weapons :

All the weapons had one simple function – ‘Slow the Opponents down’. Some weapons slow people down behind you (mines), some slowed opponents ahead of you, while the Turbo Boost basically equates to slowing everyone down at the same time.

In my humble opinion this was one of the simplest yet one on the most important concepts of making fun weapons in WipEout. The only "weapon" that doesn't "slow the opponents down" is the shield. While you may like picking a shield sometimes (e.g. your ship is low on energy and far from the pit, you want secure your first place in the last straight line, ...), most of the time picking a shield is the most boring weapon.

I'm not telling to remove shields because of course they have always been part of WipEout, because they can be useful (see above) and because picking sometimes a "boring" weapon helps elevating the feeling of picking a "fun" weapon (yay, I got the Quake !). That's the common philosophy of good vs evil where good only exists because there is an "evil" reference. However I think having too much weapons that don't "slow the opponents down" is not fun. And, most importantly, it's not very WipEout-like.

For this reason I think the "Shield", "Invincibler", and "Phantomizer" - which are redundant (basically Phantomizer is Shield + Invincibler) - should not be all there. I think at least one of these three should be dropped, or some effects should be adjusted to be a bit more active ("active" as in active vs passive).

Also Darkmatter suffers from "not slowing the opponents down". While Darkmater might reveal useful in rare cases, I fear the weapon will mostly be either a LOL weapon or a cheating weapon. (and nobody here likes cheaters, are we ?)

Assault

I'd like to comment some Assault weapons, more friendly this time.

Satellite => Locks on every ship infront of the player & shoots a laser at each target found [though I think "Satellite" sounds too friendly for a weapon ].

I think you might call it "Quake" ? x)
Moreover Satellite suffers from the impossibility of hitting indoor targets. Well, maybe this effect is intended, though (but your description didn't seem to).

EMP => Releases an electromagnetic field which turnes off electricity of enemy ships close to the player for a certain time.

I can clearly see how awesome the EMP effect can look like on screen. But, gameplay speaking, how do you explain that your ship is not affected by the EMP since, if I understand the effect correctly, you ship is holding the EMP and holding it for a certain time ? (btw EMP should be a single "pulse" and not for a long time but that's a naming problem more than a gameplay problem)

[docfo4r]

Good points, vincoof.

As for the shield, I kinda agree with you. The "shield" is so overused, actually you can find it in every combat race. Question: Is it a good idea to create a game without a classic shield? Maybe, yes, if we combine Phantomizer & Invincibler or overthink their idea, we could create something else and more interesting than just a shield. I still like the idea to have a hologram, or a bait activated on the track when picking up the gimmick which replaced the shield. How are the other people here thinking about this?

About Satellite, yeah. Didn't think of the indoor-thing. In case it really has something to do with satellites. As far as I remember zero or Oryx had the idea for that weapon, maybe they can explain how it works exactly.

And for the EMP. It's rather simple, you are sending some kind if "shockwave" from your ship forward or to all directions. Since that shockwave is travelling away from you ship, your own ship is not affected to the EMP. Or, when firing an EMP, it takes about 1 seconds until the actual EMP goes off [like Plasma Ball takes some time to finally get shot in Wipeout] and in the meantime some kind of energy field is building up around your ship blocking the EMP effect for your ship. Could be an awesome graphic effect but I guess also lot's of coding.
As for the EMP effect... Here is where I got the idea from:

An EMP goes off at 02.55

[TypeProton]

Okay, gotta admit I'm lazy lately. Not to mention I'd have to do my college's work when I actually got in the mood...
Here's what I've sketched while I'm drawing the real ones. Apologies for low quality and unrelated doodads : [an Imgur album]

Can't talk much about Docfo4r's weapon list. I'm not sure if it's fun to play. But here's mine :
Aggressive :
Cannon - 30 round autocannon
Rocket - 3 shot rocket, just like WOpulse.
Wall - A WOHD-Fury Zone Barrier that fires like WO3 force wall.
Missile - Doh.
Quake - Basically same thing as in WO.
Plasma - Wipeout's ball of wrecking...
Repulse - Damaging blast that push opponents around user away in short radius.

Passive :
Mines
Shield
Leech - WOHD Leech beam.
Cloak - Hide AG craft from visuals and any lock-on weapon targeting.
Turbo
Bomb
Counter - Put a single-use limited-duration special field around user. Any non-lockon weapon will be reflected back at an angle. Lock-on weapons will be redirected back at user. When Leech'ed it will immediately break the link and zap some damage off the Leech user. If hit by Quake it'll protect the user and fire off a single Repulse.

All of these has to be arranged, according to highest vote in [this] thread, so each weapon can be countered by another pick-ups that are close together in terms on draw order assuming player doesn't keep/absorb their pick-ups.

[zero3growlithe]

@docfo4r: I think I'll change this "Satelite" weapon into "Ion Cannon". Description: When used user gets an temporary shield which will defend him from super destructive Ion Cannon which shoots great amount of energy onto surface (in ex. earth) which damages everything that gets into its field of destruction... something like nuke

Now, I would like to know what kind of physics would you like in game, generally I'm asking about ship jumping ability, should ship fly really close to track surface with not much of possibility to jump on flat surfaces or should it be able to make barrel rolls only on bigger jumps? Sorry I'm asking so late... xd

[wildmorgan]

Here's a weapon/power-up I have always wanted to see in a Wipeout game:

Teleport

You could have it fire out in front of you, much like the force wall did in WO3 and it opens up an Einstein-Rosen bridge. You fly into the portal and you arrive instantly a couple of hundred meters down the track. You would have to be careful though as it is only stable enough to allow one ship through, so you would have to use when no opponents are immediately in front of you, else they might fly through the portal ahead of you and steal your advantage.

[docfo4r]

Hmmm I'd say maybe a little lower than Wipeout HD is. The free room between track and ground of the ship should be clearly visible [for example in "Voltage" it's hard to make out your ship is actually flying].

@wildmorgan kinda cool idea aswell. Definately something new. But when it comes to portal/beaming etc. we should make sure it won't be too much confusing and also not too much of an advantage aswell. But I don't know, this weapon could be well hated by others.

Another idea which might be hated is a time-based weapon. Like for example when activating it, the whole game slows down [of course the lap counter aswell] and your controls are more precisely, or just the enemies become slower for a moment. But I can imagine that it could be annoying easily if the enemy is using that pickup too often...

[AG-SYSTEMS]

Can we stop with the super weapons like the Ion cannons, all ship-affecting weapons etc...

It ruins the spirit of the race and offsets the level playing field.

And please, no cloaks. Once again, it's too powerful.

Although I love the idea of walls. A object that stops a ship without damaging it...

Edit-I've changed my mind on teleports. See later posts.

[Oryx Crake]

I'm kind of in favor of many weaker weapons rather than few really devastating ones. I actually kinda like the Ion cannon in fusion, very little damage long bursts and if you aim it correctly into an engine muzzle it jerks your ship sideways, or off course perhaps.

So yeah I'm all for ammunition based point and click type weapons. Say, cannon, ion cannon(the way it works in fusion), rockets, bigger yield cannon but with less shots... etc. stuff that does require more skill to hit a shot with than a missile or a quake.

[zero3growlithe]

Hmmmm, how about weapons that has properties like: Fire Rate, Strenght, Push Force, Engine Stop Ability, AG Stop Ability, Range, Accuracy, Sniper Mode... like in some kind of FPS game? Proton gun, 20mm cannon, Laser, Minigun, Swarm Rockets (game would be more fun in Arena Mode mentioned many pages back) Don't worry about programming stuff, if there will be something that is impossible to write (although there is nothing that is not possible) then I'll just suggest something simpler or changed a bit...

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I came up with a new idea for a team. It isn't likely going to make the cut, but why not? None of my ideas are going to get anywhere if I keep them locked up in my head.

Name: Ti-Khana
Origin: Israel
Date Founded: About a month prior the start of the F9000
Logo: A stylized silhouette of a raptor, but with a snake's head
Livery: Sage green with pale, sand-colored highlights
Craft Performance: Well balanced attributes, performing equally well in all areas.
Craft Asthetics: Looks like a cross between a Viper from the new BSG, and a Rifter from EVE (it has two engines mounted in the front, each with a grill in front of it). I will try to find some pictures of both of the ships mentioned above for the modellers to use as a reference. I will also try to make a drawing.
Lead Pilot: [LAST NAME, FIRST NAME]
Second Pilot: [LAST NAME, FIRST NAME]

Backstory: They were originally planning to compete in the F9000 league, but when they signed up they were asked to demonstrate their craft. The craft the presented wasn't actually their own design, but rather a craft that was found while a small archaeology team was excavating some ruins. It performed remarkably well, but due to the literally ancient nature of the craft, it broke down in the middle of a race, and they were unable to compete in the F9000.

Several years later, at the start of the FX 150, they reverse-engineered the design and refined it, then built a new craft for another shot at AG Racing. Even though the FX 150 is an amature league, they are still proud to be competing.

I hope you guys like the idea. I am not sure it will go very well, though. I have bad luck with this kind of thing. Still trying to come up with names for the two pilots, so speak up if you have any suggestions.

[docfo4r]

@Oryx
Hmmm but I think having almost only bullet-based weapons could become boring, because I imagine the players become divided in two groups: One group with lots of skills because they are used to have this kind of weapon in combat races and the other group with no skills hitting maybe only one time with a pack of 30 bullets. So the latter group would always fire blindly and cross their fingers to hit something.

A quake could also be tactical: Imagine you start from position 8, you managed to get yourself into position 2 after 3 laps out of 4 because the AI is set on difficult. But somehow, the leader managed to get too far away from you so it's almost impossible to catch up only with racing. A quake would be the only weapon which would slow down the leader for a while. And still, the quake also isn't a global weapon.
But of course, we should have maybe only 1 or no global weapon and just a few weapons with a large area of activity, or the game becomes frustrating if you get hit by something four times in a lap even the enemies are not close to you.

[wildmorgan]

Can we stop with the super weapons like the Ion cannons, all ship-affecting weapons etc...

It ruins the spirit of the race and offsets the level playing field. Especially teleportation weapons...

If it ain't broke don't fix it right? That's exactly the kind of attitude that causes a series to go stale. I'm astoundingly bored with the weapons in Wipeout, there's nothing really new in there since 2097. Only Fusion really attempted to add new and innovating ideas to the roster.

I agree that there should be only ONE "super, all ship affecting" weapon (the Quake - don't like the idea of Ion Cannons myself), but a teleport is hardly a super weapon and definitely fits in with the sci-fi theme of the Wipeout series. It wouldn't give a player too much of an advantage, it would just give the back runners a bit of a chance - it's not like they'd teleport right ot the front of the pack is it? That would be ridiculous. And like the quake, you could make it a rare pick up.

That's my opinion anyway...

[zero3growlithe]

But you must also keep in mind which Weapon Draw System we'll be using, cos that will affect final weapon list too... the one I've invented prevents contenders to get ultimate weapon too fast.

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

Another idea which might be hated is a time-based weapon. Like for example when activating it, the whole game slows down [of course the lap counter aswell] and your controls are more precise, or just the enemies become slower for a moment. But I can imagine that it could be annoying easily if the enemy is using that pickup too often...

Fatal Inertia had the ultra-rare 'Time Dialator' pickup. Guess what it did. Here is a hint:It caused the lead to be overtaken...by the last positioned racer.

As for Mach One and Airbraker:Anyone mind if the F7200 Drag Prototype(apppeared in WipEout 3:SE in the high speed oval tracks) be used as inspiration? I was playing a prototype race and using only the airbrakes for handling. It seems...potent enough.

[docfo4r]

The "Time Dilator" was kinda a nice effect. Also since it only lasts for about 3-4 seconds [race time] it's impossible to overtake the leader if in last position except the whole field is not 3 meters or more ahead of you. More "fatal" was that one weapon in Voltage. When picked up and used, you activate an autopilot which is about 20 times faster than normal speed and pushes you far ahead of the leader. In THAT case, the race was over for everyone else, most stupid pickup I ever saw. But still, these kind of weapons might be annoying easily anyway...

I think it's ok whatever you use for inspiration. Many of my weapon ideas come together from different combat races and are reconsidered. Just make sure to not just make a 100% copy

[AG-SYSTEMS]

If it ain't broke don't fix it right? That's exactly the kind of attitude that causes a series to go stale. I'm astoundingly bored with the weapons in Wipeout, there's nothing really new in there since 2097. Only Fusion really attempted to add new and innovating ideas to the roster.

I agree that there should be only ONE "super, all ship affecting" weapon (the Quake - don't like the idea of Ion Cannons myself), but a teleport is hardly a super weapon and definitely fits in with the sci-fi theme of the Wipeout series. It wouldn't give a player too much of an advantage, it would just give the back runners a bit of a chance - it's not like they'd teleport right ot the front of the pack is it? That would be ridiculous. And like the quake, you could make it a rare pick up.

That's my opinion anyway...

The way that the teleport was impiled, that it would be a kill all. I'm all in favor of a limited teleport. Like 1-2 postions ahead. And it could be broken by weapons fire kinda like the leach beam.

Now that would be fun to use. And please make it rare on the random number generator.

[vincoof]

Having one super weapon (like Quake) is fine as long as the pickup rate is low and as long as you don't feel committed to use that weapon to win a race. When the Quake first appeared in WipEout 2097, it was a very powerful weapon visually speaking but gameplay speaking it was sometimes less powerful than the Turbo weapon (which has never been questioned). The only issue about Quake was its high damage : with good configuration (i.e. lots of ships close to you in front of you), having two Quakes in a row often ended in a multikill, and hearing the computer saying "con-con-contender eliminated-ted-ted" was so hilarious. But this configuration was rare and picking two Quakes was even more rare so this was a fun bonus and not really a gamebreaking design.

To my mind, weapons like Plasma Bolt are much more game-breaking as it leaves the target almost no option but dying. Instakill attacks (or almost-insta) are not fun in games where death ends the match, such as in WipEout.

[docfo4r]

The way that the teleport was impiled, that it would be a kill all. I'm all in favor of a limited teleport. Like 1-2 postions ahead. And it could be broken by weapons fire kinda like the leach beam.

Now that would be fun to use. And please make it rare on the random number generator.

Totally agree here! Would be awesome if the portal could be broken by other weapons. Imagine that fun-anger moment in multiplayer when you got yourself a portal shot and a buddy broke it with a canon from behind just in the moment you almost made it trough

[wildmorgan]

I agree to a point, although the plasma bolt is stupidly hard to time and even aim. It's only really effective if you are right behind someone, or if you get a lucky shot in.

It was toned down somewhat in Pulse, I agree that it shouldn't really be an instakill. Maybe in Eliminator mode, but not during races.