Even worse when you are leading and get a quake, or right at the back and get mines... thats always been annoying lolQuote:
Originally Posted by drenath
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Even worse when you are leading and get a quake, or right at the back and get mines... thats always been annoying lolQuote:
Originally Posted by drenath
And I think you missed Paradoxx's point. Leaving in the barrel rolls but replacing their gameplay function with superficial "freestyle points" would make them more of a cheap extreme sports gimmick than you claim they already are.Quote:
Originally Posted by klax75
As I tried to say earlier, barrel rolling as a gameplay function is hardly a gimmick -- it's a technique that requires driving skill and energy management (someone enforced the point earlier that you also have to deal with disorientation when coming out of a barrel). It seems to me you have a problem with the actual animation; the thought of one of these ships doing a side roll in midair is too flashy for you. Or maybe some of you just don't like the logic... why would spinning around and landing upright magically grant you a speed boost?
Well, how does the anti-gravity technology in this future world work, precisely? Would you feel better if someone at Studio Liverpool came up with a technical canon reason why barrel rolling exists as a viable anti-gravity racing technique?
I can understand not wanting to do them to complete speed laps and time trials. Hey, I beat Zico, and it was no picnic. In my experience, having to pull off a set number of barrel rolls in a single lap to get a good record is difficult, frustrating, and ultimately not much fun. But aside from Zico and a few awfully stressing time trial gold medals in campaign mode, you do not need to use barrel rolls to complete the game. You do need to use them to get great online records. And they'll probably help your chances of winning when you're racing online. If that bothers you, I don't know what to tell you. Great racers will get good records. Great racers who can expertly utilize barrel rolls will get better records. That's just how it is.
Shame, i don't have time or enough vocabularies to explain my point of view about BR again, but captain Howdy you resumed my mind.
I am with you !
Well said captain! :+ I've been introducing lately friends and family into wipeout and I realiced that br's are not a cheap trick for newcomers to get good times, they need practice to be done properly. I would say that some people that answered "no" use them much more often and better than I do. :P
I understand what you are saying, and what Paradoxx is too. To me it just makes WipeOut feel extremely cheap. It's no different then in the game Pure I do a trick to get energy to be able to use Boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by captain howdy
For me it just feels like SL is doing what all races games are doing, to do a trick move, or a combo move to give a boost. I have said before, fine if there are BR SL love them. Then why can't we map the controls to what is comfortable to the players. Like the L2, R2, L2 idea. This would be optional to your playing style.
That L2. R2, L2 move is not logical,....
when that was the barrel roll move, the zone trophy with only airbrakes would be impossible,...
also steering in some corners would come down to a barrel chaos....
Why would it? A BR can only be triggered while in the air anyway...
I understand that they take skill to perform and land, especially at speed. I simply don't like them. I do not enjoy the modification to gameplay that BRs introduced, and I don't particularly think they are a good gameplay mechanic.
That being said - I will still do them to get good times, however. They're in Wipeout HD, and we have to play the game we've got.
I just personally wish that they weren't in the game.
yes rejj, the more I play SL, the more I'm thinking like you. A good anulpha reverse lap = 2 brs. A perfect one : 3 brs. My thumb hurts a lot. I think this br need is too much, maybe worse than pulse. 5 brs a lap for some tracks? that's insane hardcore gamer stuff, more than ever. But I'll give it a try.
I can see 2 BRs on Anulpha reverse (one boosting out of the tunnel, one after the hill before the last long right), but THREE?! Where?
The bump before the last 3 boosts.
Can one at the end of the 1st long right hander too.
yeah there's 3 BRs and it's a different sheme from what you are using Martin atm ( i did 20.99 with the technique you explained and there's like 2 tenths to cut in order to get the perfect laptime with those 2 BRs.)
But we can race faster with 3 BRs : get the normal route and when you approach the 1st difficultie ( hard right curve ) you boost, BR and land before the begining of that narrow section.then at the top of the narrow section ( where's there's 2 BPads in semi diagonale) you hit one of them ( mostly the right one) up your nose and BR get the 3 BP in diagonal and then the last BR and be as close as possible of the inside right on the last curve.
The boost and BR is really tricky to use, i constantly hit walls and walls but got a promising 21.05 with that technique.
Ill copy and paste that into the tips for HD ;)
100% with this comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by rejj
same here, rejj`s post sums up my feelings better than my 357 previous posts about BRs ;)
Same here. And I must admit that there is some satisfaction in speeding down the last part of a race, head to head with a competitor, and then boosting ahead and winning because I managed to pull off a BR and he didn't. At the same moment, the frustration on the other side is unnessecary...
I quite like BRs, but think they may be over-used (on a times per race basis). Perhaps better balancing by making them cost more shields? The activation method is too unreliable though, I'd much rather have it bound to buttons than the analog stick (switching to dpad doesn't count). I'd say overload the airbrakes, but I hate that SS overloads them already; I've lost count of the number of times I've SS'ed by mistake while making minor turn corrections. Having L1 and R1 purely as 'stunt' keys - tap L1 to SS left, R1 to SS right would be good, but people probably quite like them as rear view and comms... Looking for controls not used yet we find... the right analog stick! Tap it Left or Right while on the track for SS and push it L or R in the air to BR. Might take a bit of getting used to, taking your thumb off the throttle, but I think it'd work pretty good - a lot like dodging in God of War.
Anyway, an option for hosts to disable BRs in their multiplayer games would be good, as would an option in the control setup to disable SS entirely (I'd much rather not be able to SS at all than keep screwing up corners due to accidental activation).
EDIT: alternative to Right Analog: use the 6axis - a violent jerk of controller left or right - to activate SS and BR.
Please don't make them Sixaxis. Being disabled in real life, in games I have to turn off sixaxis since I physically cannot do it. I have very small hands (and body to match lol) It's very frustrating now days that so many games have body movement in them. One of the reasons I play video games is to be able to do things I can't do in real life. Now over time I won't be able to do those either. I know I am minority on this too. Like the Wii I can't do the movements so I really can't play it. I do agree it is fun watching other people do it though. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
I'd really like to be able to set barrel rolls to something else, my hands are stretched enough when using the stick.
I know this is simple and people may hate it, what about Hitting R1 then left or right depending on what kind of barrel roll, to do a Barrel roll. If you do it quick then you release R1 you could still steer your ship. And this would give the possibility to do multiple barrel rolls for more speed in one jump.
I would prefer they were gone all together. It just seems like down the road they could add flips and flat spins too. :(
I don't get the more damage for barrel roll thing. Here is my thinking on this. Let's make more energy come off for a barrel rolls so it limits them. This will cause them to become "not fun" to use at all. I think that is why there were put into the game to begin with, and the constant worry of using up all of your energy would make it a complete chore to use them. I think the energy taken off is pretty good on HD.
That being said, unless the game is sped up, I would like to leave them in just for that reason.
That being said, if the game can be sped up, remove them, they are a nuisance since they still do not work all of the time, or have a delayed reaction, well after the button presses, and the hand has been removed from the pad, it then works except you do not make the roll because it activated way too late wasting a bunch of your energy, and not even getting a speed boost. Yes, I can force it to work most of the time even under this circumstance, but it is a pain.
I still find barrel rolls not to be even near the problem of sideshift though, those freaking things take the feel of wipeout completely away. at least barrel rolls don't mess with the physics of the ship
I think they work a little better than they did in pure and pulse, but its a pain that the controls for activation has not been revised since its debut (like move them to another button as mentioned previously) . Sometimes I get the impression that it expects a full press on the D-pad rather than a nudge. Problem is, the faster I go, the less I tend to press the button fully. If it is going to return in future wipeout games, it needs to be mapped to another button rather than interrupt the craft control.
I agree, I would be happier with a barrel roll button, I don't like the interference with the steering as well. Either that or a turbo button like wo3
Maybe it's just me or maybe I just don't notice it otherwise but if I play online I can do a couple of BR's and I get the low power warning. I don't think I've taken that many hits or hit the wall that much (no more than I would while offline). Do BR's cause a greater reduction in power online? I wouldn't think so.
I end up absorbing weapons constantly just to power up. For me it's pretty much a last lap/last minute decision to BR while online.
Sorry for bumping, but;
Having so many ways to race is a great change to your normal racers. It adds many different aspects to play style and thinking. Having br is a good example of when you make choices in racing. It adds a dimention of carful and smart play as opposed to just skill in controlling.
I think in wipeout, being good means knowing to use the game to it's fullest. Using all tools available. And in this game, the more tools you have, the more you need to invest inorder to become good. I understand both sides, but I favor the side that favors BR, because ultimatly, I like an involving racer alot more than a breeze cruize (like RR, which I love btw).
Besided, being able to perform is all about skill, and I see alot of people online with skill that I am striving for. I am good with br, such tools improve your skills :)
I will never come to like BR. Find it redicolous and annoying to pull off (stick user). But your right about having to use the damn thing. I never use it in multiplayer cause if I win, it feels great.
I didn't mind the turbo boost from WO3. The only problem is that we can easily absorb weapons. So for the method to work, we will need to bring back pit lanes (I miss these :P).
Meh I really don't know how they will replace BR.
If it was just a button, it would be easier, but yeah I still think barrel rolls are a great addition. I approve of thee.
I don't mind a combination of button pressing,it's just the fact that BR's are linked to the steering I find REALLY annoying.
Unintentional BR'ing at Phantom speed because of quick controller input
The amount of times in last nights Anzac V's France Avalon races that I went to quickly adjust my steering and ended up BR'ing into a wall or off the track drove me nuts.
If it didn't BR it attempted to and I lost shield energy with no boost,so when I did want to BR I couldn't for fear of blowing up.[a few previous contacts with other craft and your shields shot anyway]
Or unintentional BR's with sod all shield energy eliminating myself.
This problem seems to be more due to me using the D-Pad and that one of my controllers seems to be more sensitive to this that the other.
Either way it's a PITA
I envy you guys that can use the sticks,where I don't think you would suffer this to the same degree,I just can't get to grips with them.
Hmm. I'm undecided on barrel rolls. WipEout HD is the only game of the series I have played that uses BRs so to me using them was part of a learning curve rather then a noticeable change in gameplay mechanics.
On the one hand I feel they do add to the racing experience online - countless times I have had 25-30 energy and I'm coming up to the finish line with another racer slightly infront. I know I don't stand a chance of getting a weapon and barrel rolling will take me down to easy-elimination health. 9 times out of 10 I will take the risk and do that last barrel roll. Then the moment of truth comes, did the other racer have a missile or quake etc? *Contender Eliminated* Damn it! And if they didn't I feel that the risk I took was worth the reward and leaves a feeling of 'Phew'! as I just snatch a higher position.
However, BRs on the other hand are a little unbalanced in a sense when you have higher energy. I find myself doing BR and then instantly absorbing a weapon I dont need. End result is; I've traded a weapon I dont need, such as a cannon when there is nobody infront to unload at, for a boost and lost barely any energy.
And leading on from this idea is the system that means players ahead of the pack just get further ahead without worrying about losing energy as they almost always have a free weapon pad available. Whereas those in the pack are fighting to get a weapon and are already losing health.
Its also cost me 2 new ps3 controllers since HD was released on the store :bomb
I think for me it's a case of 'the apple never falls far from the tree' and I've, metaphorically speaking, grown up with barrel rolls and I dont want to see them go because it's what im used to.
As a way of keeping them in the game, maintaining the reward they give and keeping the flow of the game, why not make it so that you can only barrel roll when you have a weapon, and that weapon is taken away from you whether the roll is or isn't successful. That way you cant absorb it to regain health instantly after, you lose the normal 15 energy, and it at least slightly cuts the number of rolls someone in first place is able to do. Continually do BRs and you can't absorb the weapons you've picked up and have low energy. Absorb the weapon before hand and you can't do the BR.
As for the BR activation setting I find that, however much it can drive me up the wall sometimes (pun intended), I still prefer it to be the analgoue/d-pad current setup. As a few of you mentioned in this thread earlier, it does require a bit of skill to pull off a barrel roll, not to mention be pointing in the right direction when you land. This is especially when, if you use analogue, your stick stays stuck in the direction you last pointed it in for the roll thanks to too much wipeout making your controler super floppy :D
I think I'll vote yes to BR's but only just, the system needs more work done to it imo.
That’s a really well thought out and balanced reply Greenix. And I agree with practically all of it. In particular, the point about being able to barrel roll with impunity when out in front and ahead of the pack is one that had occurred to me: anything which reduces the chances of tight, close racing is something that needs looking at (conversely of course, someone left behind and chasing a pack will benefit in the same way).
I think your compromise solution is extremely elegant. The best part of it is that it would actually add to the strategic aspect of the game. For example, when a pilot picks up a weapon, he/she now has 3 choices (use, absorb or save for BR) rather than 2.
Of course, the ‘solution’ is only relevant for actual racing rather than Time Trials or Single Laps, but I reckon pilots on both sides of the BR controversy would be reasonably happy for something like this to be implemented.
Edit: just remembered that it wouldn't work for 'no weapons' racing either. Still, the basic principle is a good one: make the choice as to whether to barrel roll or not more strategic, but keep them as influential as they are now when used wisely.
That's true Alejess. I guess it depends on if you think barrel rolls are an acceptable part of pure line racing. No weapons races, as far as I know, are more a test of a pilot's consistancy and line efficiency - add being able to fly under pressure from a very close opponent. Is a BR more accepted in these types of races? I see them as a big part in time trials and speed laps because to have a top record means you do have to master every aspect of the game and spend a lot of time studying the track etc. I personally see no weapons as a sort of time trial mode. I remember one pilot warning me about no weapon's races with wellington (when I only just started playing WipEout with him) and reffered to them as 'Wellington's Time Trial Mode'. I guess because of this I see BRs as more fitting for no weapon races... and there is the aspect of no weapons to absorb.
Maybe 2 different systems for normal multiplayer races and then no weapons/time trial/speed lap races.
Such a delicate game to try and change without unbalancing other areas.
I have to agree almost entirely with Greenix's longer post. BRs are nice and I've no problem with them, but it certainly sucks to be in second place, fighting to not only regain energy but also take the person who's in first (and, thus, taking every weapon pad).
Someone suggested a while ago to just leave weapon pads permanently activated in multiplayer as a solution to the weapon pad lag issue. Such a thing would also fix the "balance issue" BRs have with the person who's out front. Of course, this would also effectively turn most multiplayer races into a sort of eliminator mode -- but from what I've been seeing, I don't think people would care too much about that. :D
Also, how about making it one button? Do we really need a button to change the camera location? How about triangle = barrel roll so I don't have to worry about accidentally doing a barrel roll into a wall or off the track (Sebenco reverse, anyone)?
Greenix, that idea of yours is ACE! If you were only able to do a BR while holding a weapon, this would also eliminate BRs completely from TTs, SLs, and no-weapons races - which in my book is a good thing!
I agree, BRs are good for the extra thrill in close races, playing poker with your own shields to win a race. But in my opinion, they belong only there. In a solo event, man versus track, there is no place for them, as far as I'm concerned.
It's certainly the best band-aid on the barrel roll wound that's been suggested thus far.
Trouble is - by the time something like this appears in the series, will I still care enough about WipEout to pick it up and give it a try? I've certainly regretted wasting my money on WipEout HD - there'd need to be a massive rethink for me to ever play a post-W3SE edition of the game again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eLhabib
How about, you do a BR, and the ship farts? ;):D:D
Seroiusly, I'm not bothered about doing BR's, as I'm confident that the 'Casual Gaming' version of wipEout , the easy one the masses will want to play more, can be obliterated by good old - fasioned weapons off and badass racing lines.:D
Personally i like brs(when they work) so i voted yes. At the end of the day the option to turn them off online is there if you dont, but i have to say i've not seen many of these race types so perhaps the majority of pilots favour them:nod
Or, the majority of pilots who don't like them, know that putting BR's off is a death sentence for any game they create.;)
I'll use BR's because they are in the game, but if they weren't there I wouldn't miss them. A re-think is in order for the next game though. A "new" speed system that isn't a stunt pulling manuever is definitely needed.
BRs in Wipeout HD has killed the internal view gameplay. Which i have been experiment a bit, well quite a bit on Moa Therma Forward and Reverse. ****ing awesome view to play Wipeout in. The motion sickness that happens when pulling a BR in HD puts me off quite bad.
Did I mention that barrel rolls suck? [and I mean that in a negative way ;) ]
That's why I don't like Sebenco forward ,motion sickness from Cockpit view, which can get pretty bad with the size of my screen
I dread it when that track get selected by a host when racing online.:dizzy
at least, an option asking the player if he wants to have his internal view twisting or not when rolling would solve this right?
****, check that out. Split on 73 votes each.
Wipeout is really a game where novelty BRs shouldnt be included. Should be about good cornering skills and good flow.
Well, it ain't split no more... :)
(yes, I don't really like BRs - mostly because I'm crap at them!)