Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.
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Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.
Sntns frgs cn stl xprss opnyn, but more thorough and accurate articulation of one's thoughts is more often my preference. ;) :g
I've taken some time and read through this thread. I personally think, that the WZ records tables are still working fine. If people want to use the speed mod, let them do it. To me something like this doesn't look like cheating, it's using an in-game mechanic which, as sadly and unrealisticas as it may be, is just there. And you don't have to use any tape at all to take advantage from that in-game mechanic. You can use your fingers to push the nose of your ship down the whole race, like it seems Al does by holding his PSP in some weird way (could you post a video or something, I'd really like to see what you described about holding the console in your hands a few pages earlier ;)).
Using CFW to make your PSP run at 333mhz is a whole different issue imo.
Your lightly sarcastic comment hits the spot Lance! It sounds a lot like we're talking about doping in real life sports: Why not let everyone do it? Because if you did, it wouldn't be sports anymore, but be some competition between the big pharma companies about who produces the best steriods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
The same goes for CFW, I think. This is no simple in-game mechanic and who can tell if someone is using CFW for clocking his PSP at 333mhz only? Maybe this person is using some selfmade programm which influences, say, the numbers of turbo boosts you get during a race? PSP Wipeout was not made for 333mhz, so take it with all its flaws (barrel roll bug due to framerate issues) or leave it I say. And what will some people like Rapier Racer or myself say if we'd suddenly allow CFW-times in the tables? We have never been using CFW and at least I never will.
Btw, I was talking to lunar about a similar thing more than a year ago when we all started playing Pure online with XLink Kai: Is it allowed to enter the records achieved while playing online? The tables' rules say you have to race against a fukll grid of opponents! I've never had only one stable race against more than 4 opponents on XLink Kai. So, are those records legit? Do we all have to erase our Pure records from the tables now?
For me, in the end it all comes down to this:
The Wipeoutzone records tables have been working on a system of honesty until today and they will do so in the future to come. Every pilot should decide for himself if using an intended in-game mechanic "to the max" is ok or not. Using some kind of external help, like CFW and clocking the PSP to 333mhz, should not be allowed in the tables imo.
In a perfect gaming world, all games would be programmed perfectly and there would be no flaws to exploit, but of course there is no such world, and we are left to either exploit the flaws or set up separate leagues on an honour system to choose not to exploit those flaws. It is a very difficult problem because different people have a different outlook on whether the absolute fastest time is important, or whether the flaws can actually be used for fun, or whether it is important to play the game as realistically as possible, or... et cetera. All competition eventually comes to this: A specific set of people agree to temporarily divide from the rest of humanity and play a specific game a specific way. The question becomes: Are there enough players who agree on that way to make playing that rule-set practical, and also satisfying to the participants.
That's what we're faced with here. And if we're only going to have one set of records and rules to make them by, then there are going to be unhappy people. If we have too many sets of rules, then the competition becomes less meaningful because many who might be the best players are in separate leagues and you may never know who's the truly the best. There is also this: Is knowing who's the best at a particular game/pastime actually important?
I know I am offering no solutions in this; I'm just trying to sum up the issues a bit.
LONG AND GLORIOUS HISTORY OF ABBREVIATED SENTENCES USED IN TELEGRAMS STOPQuote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
WOULD LIKE TO SHOW MODERN TXTSPK TO ORWELL STOP WOULD CHUCKLE DELIGHT
UNFORTUNATELY TIME MACHINE REQUIRED STOP END MESSAGE
:lol
Count me in with the people who fervently hope for this mod not to be required in future WO games. At the lower speeds in particular, it's really really annoying to have to hold the "up" arrow down all the time. Wouldn't a real machine be designed so that the default position is the most aerodynamic?
And, if real ships contained some lever or pedal to control the tile, I don't think real drivers would hesitate for a moment to put a brick on top of the pedal (or something similar) so that they could nose the ship down while having their hands and feet free for other activities!
The day I give my blessing to custom firmware will be the day Satan is ice skating to work. :-Quote:
Originally Posted by Asayyeah
This whole charade involving the interperatation of the rules for competition on this site really does sadden me. There should be no doubt about how those rules are written; no modifications of any nature.
Yes, I conceded before that it was impossible to police, but then so are most of the other forms of cheating in an honour based system. The clue is in the title - I find the honourable way to compete is to play with an unmodified console with a real version of the game, an unmodified controler, and do the best I can from there.
And a vast majority of the time it isn't good enough. I occupy exactly zero spots at the top of the tables on the site I created, but it doesn't motivate me to cheat in any shape or form; just try harder. That's what an honour based system is, to me.
WipEout 3 was ruined for me the day I found out how much easier it was to play with a NegCon. I put the NegCon back in the box and stopped going for times pretty much there and then. Still, I had to concede that it isn't cheating, because it's an official peripheral and that goes with the territory.
However, I actually cheered aloud when I learned that Brett Holland had set that ludicrous Zone mode score with a humble dual shock, because, in my view, that was about the purest way you could do it; he bought his console, the controler that goes with it, a tv and the disc. Bang. Best in the world and no **** about it.
Oggob got it - You play the game and you run the races without any modifcations to anything. That's the way I do it - that's the spirit and the motivation that led me to create this community and work so hard on the records tables.
But over time, somehow, it's become "okay" to bend the rules here and there because "everyone is doing it", or it's "necessary to get a good time."
I bet it ****ing is. I bet Ben Johnson thought it was absolutely necessary to take drugs to get the best times because, as good as he was, he wasn't good enough to beat the rest of the Olympians without it. :rolleyes:
I'm with Packetmon - the system is there, the rules are written, and if your personal measure of "honour" allows you to believe you can pick and choose when the rules apply to you, then I certainly am not going to respect you, and yet; who the hell am I to stop you?
No one, because I cant. I'm not the man or woman you see in the mirror, but maybe I'm the man you're going to look in the eye one day and say "yeah, I bent the rules because it meant more to me to be on top of the records than to preserve the integrity of what we had here at WipEoutZone."
If you think you can do that without a pang of conscience, then have at it - get taping, re-wiring, ISO-ripping and CFW'ing 'til your heart is content. But don't anyone pretend for a minute that I condone it or that it's in the spirit that this community was originally created to foster.
If you were really on packetmon's side regarding this, then the Speed Mod would be in violation of the honour system too.
And I guess flaming some of our most well-respected users would be cool too, since he's all for not cheating as well, and that totally cancels it out.
When do we change the site's name to 4chan again? :brickwall
hear! hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
Here's where I stand:
neGcon - Perfectly legal. (The mere notion that people should be made to feel guilty for using it absolutely sickens me. :- )
Turbo Scraping in WO3 - Skill move, again, should be legal.
Shortcutting in 2097/64/WO3 - See "Turbo Scraping" - you actually need to be inherently fast to do it.
CFW - Run Pure at 222 or don't post any times for it. That's as much as I want to say.
Infinite Turbo and Shield in WO3 - Hell no.
Fusion Lap Bug - See Infinite Turbo.
And this is where the Speed Mod is in a terribly grey area. It's a "console mod" but it's not a "console mod." It's a controller mod but the controller is part of the console itself.
so Rob, If you do not want the tape on the psp for records, just say definitively that it is not allowed and I will certainly take out the couple of times I have with that, it isn't a problem for me, and the others that have gotten times with that will take it out as well, I'm sure.
The question is this though
1) If sony comes out with firmware allowing 333 for every game, will records be allowed using 333 since it is official?
2) If certified peripherals for the psp come out that make playing the game easier, maybe like ps3 controller compatability, OR the already component cables, do you find that ok to use?
I think one of the problems causing this, is just playing wipeout with a dpad. It just really isn't very good when you add the extra speed boost holding it foward, and really not fun at all to play like that, with the ship going left and right all of the time.
Also, controllers have always been modified for the best gameplay experience, ranging from PC games to even atari controllers. Another problem is peripherals that make a gameplay experience much better(or easier)(or worse) depending on your perspective. I would argue that wipeout was made with the negcon in mind. I don't even think ridge racer one, made by namco had that support in, and wipeout might have been the first game to use it just right.
For the record, I probably won't ever use the speed mod-- and certainly would not use it if the executive decision is made that it is against the rules. So I don't have much to win or loose here.
But this is a CONTROLLER modification, for ****'s sake. I have never witnessed a ban on controller mods in time trials or speed runs for other games. And Sony ITSELF has set the PSP on unstable ground because of constantly evolving firmware. Already we have seen one upgrade in processor power applied to Wipeout Pure, and as Jabberjaw points out, we may have another. I don't doubt that other features of firmware affect game performance.
I think folks are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the times on our record tables SUCK and don't reflect hardcore dedication to obtaining the fastest laps-- mine included, for the most part. We are talking about issues that only affect the very, very tip-top of the record tables. The only people that should be concerned are the very top racers-- and even then, I think we are mostly witnessing disappointment that their particular times have been overtaken.
In any case, I think that some explicit decision needs to be reach about "Jay's speed mod" and about CFW-- to me the current situation feels like "don't ask, don't tell." That's not where we want to be IMHO.
I never use "the tip" either. Why I don't do Pure time tables very often is just due to the sheer amount of tracks and speed classes, it's quite a lot to keep up with.
That's unrelated though.
I think Rob has already made his decision about CFW completely clear.
I still can't believe there's any remaining doubts after Rob's post. To me he just said no to both CFW and speed mod in that post, if you can't read that well I suggest you try harder. :brickwall
However he also said that if you think you're a smartass enough of a person, to go ahead and **** the system he put in place in the community. Just don't expect anything from him in return. :-
IMHO this is pretty clear cut. Thanks Rob for the answer, although I didn't doubt one second it wouldn't be like that according to the rules. :nod I shall stay away from the tables, I respect that.
Hi,
This thread makes me feel really uncomfortable now. My personal experience : I just wanted to push my speed lap times further. I was first upset (why now/so late? Why Kandang is not posting here anymore?), because I realized the competition was unfair. But I tried it (like a red bull can, like a neggie, like a coffee). I used this mod with my Piranha, & I was able to get 20:47 on –my favourite track- tech white, instead of a 20.81 (ugly stick certified). I’ve made about 10000 laps on tech white. I’ve reached the physical limits of my hands & my ship on it. I just wanted to go further. Now I feel guilty for that. I really think like Frances Penfold this mod is only effective when you know the track VERY well. And I’m not sure this mod is efficient for all the tracks. I first thought this piece of tape wasn’t a big deal. But when I saw people that I respect saying it’s cheating, I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want to play online & be treated as a cheater. I admired Packetmon huge dedication for the game, till’ he over-reacted… I really preferred Flashback response (“reluctant I will”, “I shall overcome eventually”). But now I’m sure he’s not going to try that. So that’s why I’m back with my “pure” ugly stick. I’m not happy with that, because psp handling is AWFUL (d-pad or stick) for the majority of us. My personal conclusion is : pure & pulse were designed for monkeys (Jabberjaw, no offense, I mean real monkeys, with 4 real hands). So the game must be forbidden to apes, because they have a physical advantage. (Cheetah gave me a call, she wants now to sue Sony Liverpool). Sorry it’s not funny. I’m just pissed off by the weird atmosphere here.
Anyway, I want to apologize to ALL for my white speed lap times recently posted on wo-game (except talon). I was wrong when I first thought this mod will put the competition further. That’s really not the case. I understand why.
Sorry for my bad English.
bye
The fact you're suggesting I'm making you feel guilty for using it doesn't surprize me at all, so spare me the hyperbole.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
The man lost the plot and made an outburst - I'm pretty sure Arnaud recognises that because he's done it himself, as have I on more than one occasion. It doesn't make his point any less valid because he was upset, but don't let that stop you from using it against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
For the record, paketmon is so upset about what he said to Arnaud that he's asked me to delete his account. There's a man with a conscience.
Why not - then you can go judging people and the worth of their comments to your heart's content.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
Does the piece of tape come in the box with the PSP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances_Penfold
Does it come in the box with the dual shock or NecGon?
No, and if a piece of tape or a rubber band does come in the packaging, then it's certainly not intended for "modding" the controller.
The way I believed it should work when I first wanted to create a community site for WipEout;
You use:
- Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Put them all together, play the game, and report your times with honesty and integrity, and I can see no fairer way of implementing an honour based records comparison system than that.
If there's a grey area, like the one you're suggesting Sony has brought upon us all, then it's being introduced outside the boundaries of our rules, not by them.
I am back to earth now! I think I got carried away just like Kanar. Also I felt like I had to prove a point against the records made by Kandang. But for me it is more important to be honest and being a part of this awesome community. Therefore I deleted all my modded times and entered my records made in the official way.
Still I am hoping to find out if Kandang is using CFW and the tip or not. Just like I am waiting on a reply from Flashback_Jack if he is using CFW or not. If I am wrong by thinking like this, then I am sorry and maybe I am more arrogant then I think I am.
Greetz Mad-Ice
I agree with what Mad-Ice is doing, and I think we`ve all been on a journey in this thread. I think Rob has stated this community`s values and we need to play by them.
But I do think people have discussed "allowing" various mods with the best of intentions - to create a level playing field. Almost all of us just want to compete fairly and have the outcome dependent on skill not hardware. We`re not all crazy to win at all costs, but the situation since Pulse has been released has frustrated a lot of people and we`ve been looking for the answer. Asa, Mad-Ice, RR, Tom, Al, me and many others fought the fight against cfw on the Pure tables for years. Those tables are pretty much clean as a whistle in this regard and do represent people`s achievments fairly. We need to get the Pulse tables to this level - I think that`s what we all want and it`s far more important than anything else.
But in discussing "allowing" stuff I think we`re confusing the unholy, unmoderated mess of wipeout-game with what we can achieve on Wipeout Zone where we have a forum, moderators and enforceable rules that we can use. Any fair player will do what the rules say, and those that won`t can bugger off, and I think the best thing would be a clear statement amounting to this in the rules:
- Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Maybe Al will destroy us with his alien hands, we`ll have to live with it or genetically modify ourselves.
Anyone playing with cfw should remove their times, and to balance this no controller mods should be used. I`ve changed my point of view many times over the course of this thread, but now I think that if this is established it`s the only way we`re going to move on to the point where we settle arguments on the track instead of the forum. I can see the logic in Al`s argument on this, but I don`t think we`re going to move on from here until we give up the idea of allowing this "mod".
I really think Xavier (Darkdrium) is setting an example to all. It was always my view that people should have to choose: you can have cfw or you can enter times here. We should stick with this. Leaving it to people`s conscience isn`t quite going to cut it, imo. And if we`re going to have zero-tolerance on cfw we should do the same for the tape-mod; it will help the keep the peace for one thing. People who don`t like it can go to wipeout-game.
This rule underpins all competition here:
"Times must be set on an unmodified console which is the same region as the copy of the game. (e.g. PAL PS2 and PAL game disc.)"
There`s no reason why we have to give this up, and an "out of the box condition" controller rule would help too. I think we will have to be willing to ask for walkthroughs and videos in Pulse on new records until the situation is settled - otherwise people are going to get frustrated again by times they feel unable to trust.
As an aside, rules that enforce standard hardware are what allow us to spot fake times. If it wasn`t for standard hardware on the "legacy" games, for example, how could the fastest players set benchmarks for what is possible and what is not? Without these benchmarks how could we spot cheaters? Allowing mods of any kind if only going to confuse things in the end and make this job harder.
Yep-- on the plastic sleeve holding the warrantee registration card-- some people just want to move it onto the analog nubbin :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
In all seriousness, the problem with this argument regarding controller mods is this...
Not all controllers are born equally, and they sure as hell are altered naturally by use. Does that make Medusa's times invalid? Should she sell her PSP to the highest bidder at WOZ because it's an unmod'd controller that behaves like an outlawed mod'd one? That's why simple controller mods are almost always allowed for time trials and speed runs-- it is impossible to level the playing field. And if you try, you end up telling player X that he can't file the base of the D-pad to facilitate zig-zag mini turbos in Mario Kart Super Circuit while Player Y has effectively done this already by playing Mario Kart DS on his console... a situation that clearly isn't fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa
Not that I don't appreciate the "hard-line" approach-- I just want to point out that it's atypical even amongst sites that have TONS of very specific rules and that require pretty much everybody to document their times with videos :)
Edit--
If the decision is to very clearly outlaw CFW, I think that needs to be stated bluntly because some people don't interpret CFW as a mod. Just say it-- "All times must be set on a console running official Sony firmware-- custom firmwares are not permitted."
I was talking about everyone here who uses a neGcon regularly, not just myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
We have our answer now. The Speed Mod is not authorised for use on the tables.
Now can we all just shut up, leave this discussion behind and go about our lives? :wall