Pure has timetrial online ! :P
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Pure has timetrial online ! :P
Pure beats Pulse’s art direction. Pure is exactly what it says in the name: Pure. I mean: look at the intro and you know what I’m talking about. That is WipEout Pure.
Also the environment design seems a lot less distracting compared to Pulse’s. Technically, Pulse is superior to Pure, but it adds so many details and neon lights, it’s sometimes complicated to focus on the track. Especially because some are too dark, too. That’s not really a problem for a home console game, but with the PSP and it’s glossy display, it is. In addition, too many details can look pixelated on the small PSP screen.
Also, the Magstrips do not work as well as you would think on some tracks. „Basilico“ for example has far to many Magstrip-parts and you have to adjust your ship on every new steep turn to avoid crashing into walls. WOHD’s selection of Magstrip-tracks is fine, but Pulse has some Magstrips where they seem like cheap gimmicks. Pure shows that good track designs do not need Magstrips – and Pure has plenty of good tracks.
The ship designs are polished WOPure models, so that’s okay with me. You have plenty of Skins to choose from and even prototype models. Some of those look pretty awesome. You have online modes, Eliminator and plenty of tracks to race, plus you can make your own leagues and some things are simply a tad better.
But: The whole menu design is a huge step backwards (in my optinion, that is). The whole hexagon theme does not fit. Those color gradients and stuff. Thankfully they did everything right with WOHD. I know it’s only the menu design, but it reflects the whole game for me somehow.
And: Pure’s handling is a lot smoother to me. In Pulse I see me bumping over the track, from left to right and up and down. Pure simply flows over the track and feels right. Leagues are predefined – that’s a huge downer for multiplayer – but the handling does make up for that.
I have just recently rediscovered my love for WipEout Pure and I’m really enjoying it. I just started a new profile and it’s a lot of fun.
And then, maybe, I have a stronger connection to Pure, as it brought WipEout back to life and – retrospective – it was my reason to have a PSP. I spend so many hours with it, also online via Xlink, and it was the game of the first WipEout Convention back in 2007. So many memories. I just do not have that connection to Pulse.
That being said, Pulse is still a damn good game.
Not being able to put on my own music (pls correct me if there's a way to do it) kills pure for me :(
When I had pure I had no idea what I was doing (because it was typical me)So I sold it.Just wish I hadn't.Still have pulse so I think what looks like pure is better than pulse.
I'm neutral, but not having Harimau or Auricom in Pulse sucked for me. Pure, the annoying thing is no eliminator. Sucky
Pure 9/10
Pulse 8.9/10
I hate such discusions.
I love wipEout games and sometimes I like PurE, sometimes PulsE, heck Fusion is nice sometimes to and here and then I still like the original.
Pure is definitely the purest for the purists as it takes everything that was amazing about the entire series, distils it and places it in your pocket. Pulse on the other hand, whilst good feels that it takes a couple of steps forward and a couple back at the same time.
If Pulse had came out first and then Pure people would have said "Now thats an excellent progression and evolution of an already good game" but as it stands it wasn't fully up to the impossibly high standards set by the first title.
Also the simplicity of the first one and its sparseness compared to the overly busy vibe of the second one was a minus point for me. The Vita version took this entire aesthetic and turned it up to 11, simultaneously ruining what could have been a potentially amazing game as I have many times before complained.
pulse is the way better game in my opinion, pure is just an incomplete prototype style game. non working BRs and shitty framerates, even on psvita. pulse on the other hand plays like a charm, and is absolutely beautiful on pstv :)
why do you think that? 8 tracks? didn't WipEout, WipEout 2097/XL, and Wip3out (non SE) only have 8 tracks as well? does that make them prototypes too? no of course not. yes standards have changed over the years and gamers generally expect more content these days but one thing i always appreciated about WipEout is quality over quantity. the 12 tracks in Pulse just weren't as great overall compared to the 8 main tracks in Pure. in all fairness Pulse has some great tracks (Moa Therma, Tech De Ra, and Platinum Rush) but honestly the rest are merely good and there are a few mediocre ones (De Konstruct and Outpost 7 :turd). on the flip side its really hard to find a track in Pure that isn't pretty fricken awesome, in physical design and visual design, though the classic tracks were disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFthebestJan
yea its annoying but you learn to work around it and its certainly not a huge issue. you just have to account for the extra time it takes after the animation completes before the speed boost is given. if you know you don't have enough time, simply don't perform one. afaik BRs weren't even advertised in Pure. i'm sure thousands of people played it without even knowing they could do one.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFthebestJan
the frame rate really wasn't much better in Pulse, at least on the default 222 MHz. it was more consistent though and actually ran above 30 FPS in TT and Zone which was nice. regardless you can run Pure through emulation with an FPS fix so it runs at a perfect 60 FPS in HD. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JFthebestJan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKQushsxwc
Moa Therma better than De Konstruct and Outpost 7? :lol
yes.
Moa Therma has great flow, effective use of mag strips, and great visual design. i'm sure the developers felt the same way which is why it was remade for WipEout HD.
i imagine your reasoning for preferring De Konstruct or Outpost 7 over Moa Therma would be because they are harder. but a hard track does not mean a good track. and an easy track does not mean a bad track. You can have technical circuits that are very well designed (Platinum Rush). Outpost 7 was not well designed.
De Konstruct was a cluttered mess and Outpost 7 was hard for the sake of hard with bad flow, a bridge section that isn't worth going on (making it pointless), and somewhat weak visual design. and i'm sure a poll from the community would agree those were the worst tracks in Pulse. i mean seriously it made me question if the developers ever played Outpost 7 on Phantom with Triakis or Piranha. it's painful to play on with those vehicles, even as a veteran who memorized the layout.
Outpost Black and White, totally loved those tracks, but mine average score on both sides are 1.52.xx with Feiser ship! Got to admit, l used to play TT religiously over 5000 laps. Pretty normal to me lol
stevie :)
Yes it does. :DQuote:
an easy track does not mean a bad track
care to elaborate?
Easy tracks are useful for learning the ropes, but after that, they're basically boring. I like tracks that punish mistakes, because it's more of a challenge in itself, and also because it allows expert players to pull ahead, which is how it should be. And I enjoy trying to work out a nice flowing line through a tricky track. The tracks you're bashing do have a good flow if you know what you're doing and are accurate enough.
edit: Actually, I will say this for easy tracks - in Zone mode, they allow you to reach ridiculous speeds, which is a whole different kind of challenge! :D
Just to let you know, Colin Berry the Lead Designer for Pure, Pulse and WipeoutHD wrote way back in 2007
"Tracks... its odd how people see things different. The designers of the tracks (Karl and I) both see Outpost 7 at the one we are the most disappointed with, yet some people really like it. Personally I think Tech De Ra is the best Wipeout track of any iteration, including the numerous tracks created and scrapped over the years. Its up there with ghost valley 1 ini snes mario kart as a track that is a joy to race over and over, for me anyway.
To call them randomly generated.... well thats just not true and its a bit dismissive to the time effort and dedication that went into them over the past 18months. Criticism is fine, it how we improve areas and indeed I would say the areas I'd change would be to add a few more jumps in general and also I would undo the decison to have a black / white for every track, some work very well, a couple dont. I do know though that a lot of time effort and care went into the track and environment generation, its an area I particularly value highly. I think it is a strong line up of tracks though there could probably have been an extra harder track in there, it should have been outpost 7 but its a little frustrating, but I have 100% faith in the track building process and the ability to come up with tracks of our designers, indeed I know we have the best people for the job. Looking back throughout each Wipeout, all of them have had tracks that some people disliked and some loved, its the nature of the beast, being unable to please all.
None of the tracks share bends, they are all designed individually and whilst some bends may end up similar, none share the same data at all. they are all constructed afresh (aside of course white / black versions of same environment)"
Original link http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...5527#post75527
stevie :)
@MrSmadSmartAlex
sounds like any track that throws enough obstacles at you is considered good in your eyes. is there any hard track you don't like?
like i said objectively speaking hard or easy in itself has no correlation with what makes a track good or bad, expect for extreme cases (which does not apply for any track in WipEout Pulse).
don't misinterpret my statements. Outpost 7 is not a bad track, but it is mediocre in design. its an okay track, but i expected better from WipEout.
hard tracks are the hardest to get right from a design perspective.
and good flow would be a track that gives you visual cues. a track that blends visual design with the physical attributes which results in cohesive design. not Outpost 7.
as for De Konstruct its mostly the visuals that hurt it more than anything else. and the split on the Black run though a nice idea was not done well.
@stin
yes, i know, i read it myself along with every other post from that thread :)
of course you cannot please everybody, but you can try to please as many people as possible. and i guarantee Outpost 7 displeases far more people than it pleases. someone somewhere will always like something, that doesn't make it good.
Not at all. Not all obstacles are equal, and there's such a thing as too much. Yeah, I don't like Platinum Rush very much. Its particular challenges aren't fun to me, and there's not really any smooth line through it if you want to set competitive times. I'm not too keen on Orcus Black or Vostok Reef Black either, which are both pretty tricky tracks from the DLC packs. And of course a few from the other games.
We're not speaking objectively though. We're discussing opinions. Only tracks that have serious glitches (such as respawn points within the track limits) would be objectively bad, and there isn't really stuff like that in Pulse (only when you push it too far trying to cut corners! :D).
This is incredibly vague...Quote:
and good flow would be a track that gives you visual cues. a track that blends visual design with the physical attributes which results in cohesive design. not Outpost 7.
as for De Konstruct its mostly the visuals that hurt it more than anything else. and the split on the Black run though a nice idea was not done well.
only tracks that have serious glitches would be objectively bad? no thats not true at all.
what is the purpose of the bridge in Outpost 7? its supposed to be a shortcut but you don't really save time on it, do you? i find on anything but Venom its not worth going on.
vague? i didn't think i needed to be descriptive for something obvious. De Konstruct is a mess visually speaking. there is junk all over the background, which makes navigating the track confusing. and ultimately feels claustrophobic. it has good ideas, looking at other racers above you was obviously the main intent of the track, but the rest of it is cluttered junk visually speaking.
and the split on the Black run. really, you can't think of a better application of a mag strip split? there are so many more creative ways. and thats a fundamental problem i have with some of the tracks. they lack creativity.
I like the harder tracks better as well, too many straights don't allow for many mistakes. It looks like the emulation is allowing some barrel rolls that would not have worked on the psp with the other ships onscreen.
It's absolutely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by applepiejr
The bridge does kind of suck (except on Venom... which means it's not an objective flaw), yes, but it hardly ruins the entire track, because you can simply not go on it. And even with that flaw, O7 is still way better than boring Moa Therma.Quote:
what is the purpose of the bridge in Outpost 7? its supposed to be a shortcut but you don't really save time on it, do you? i find on anything but Venom its not worth going on.
Well that's just your perception. It's not obvious, because I never found it confusing at all. The White run is one of the simplest tracks in the game, but still has a few interesting corners and barrel rolls. The Black run is quite tricky, but well designed. What's wrong with the split? The use of the magstrip is simple and effective - you either use it to go low or stay off it to go high, and it wasn't clear which was actually faster for quite a long time, which is great (in the end it turned out that you can swerve off the magstrip at the right moment to start a high risk barrel roll chain on the top section). Compare it to Moa Therma, which you've praised for its effective use of magstrips - well what effect do those magstrips actually have? A big loop that doesn't serve any real purpose in terms of gameplay (even less than the bridge in Outpost 7).Quote:
vague? i didn't think i needed to be descriptive for something obvious. De Konstruct is a mess visually speaking. there is junk all over the background, which makes navigating the track confusing. and ultimately feels claustrophobic. it has good ideas, looking at other racers above you was obviously the main intent of the track, but the rest of it is cluttered junk visually speaking.
and the split on the Black run. really, you can't think of a better application of a mag strip split? there are so many more creative ways. and thats a fundamental problem i have with some of the tracks. they lack creativity.
@Al
Barrel rolls get less responsive when the CPU is struggling, but I find they're still possible on ofw with other ships onscreen, you just need to start the motion earlier (sometimes just before you've actually left the ground! :lol). But yeah, the emulator lets you set the clock speed higher than 333MHz. Not tried that for myself yet, but if it works, you can probably get constant 60fps.
absolutely not. so you say Moa Therma is boring yet there are no serious bugs so according to you there should be nothing wrong with it. oh but you never said it was bad so that doesn't count? i never said any track in Pulse was bad either so honestly i have no idea what you are getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
of course its an objective flaw, every track should be designed to work well on every speed class, especially Phantom (some say the definitive WipEout experience). so yea the bridge on Outpost 7 objectively fails in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
and Moa boring? how?
bends (vertical and horizontal change)? check
decent number of speed pads? check
BRs? check
interesting visual design (ocean, islands, futuristic buildings, NO CLUTTER)? check
really i'm not sure what you need Moa to be to not be boring. narrower? its not supposed to be hard to play. a track doesn't need to be hard to play in order for it to be hard to master.
and no don't say hard/obstacles/pain/suffering is what makes a great track because that is crazy. Moa Therma has its place even for veterans. its one of the few tracks where you can make 2 perfect laps but have vastly different times. the difference? racing line, its crucial on a wide track like Moa.
A.I. too easy? theres a mod for that :rock
i read enough posts of people complaining about the visuals on De Konstruct to feel confident in my statements. i don't really have a problem with the layout of the white run per say but the split on the black run is so underwhelming. a narrow corridor? really? that whole area seemed like an afterthought. like they added it after they designed the original layout. let me clarify, there is really nothing wrong with it! but its underwhelming in design! it could have been better. i can imagine better. you can't?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
the loop on Moa is a visual element that looks nice
the bridge on Outpost 7 is a gameplay element that no one wants to go on and gets in your way
not sure why you are trying to compare elements with different purposes.
interesting, yea the problem does not exist on the emulator (PPSSPP). after 30+ hours on PC i haven't encountered that bug. the emulator runs the game at 60 FPS by default, i find that interesting because we know on a real PSP with OFW the game uses 222 MHz and its definitely not 60 FPS. more like 40-50 FPS depending on the mode. using CFW and 333 MHz we see around 60 FPS but the emulator should by default use 222 MHz yet the game runs at a perfect 60 FPS which i find to be strange. even the CFW PSP @ 333 MHz probably has drops under 60. there should be some kind of drop or fluctuation if it was true emulation (and no applied FPS cheats), mimicking the refresh rate of the real PSP at 222 MHz.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
As I said, I don't consider any track in Pulse objectively bad, because I'm able to recognise the difference between opinions and facts.
Moa has no interesting or challenging corners, and it doesn't really punish playing badly. And no, it's really not that hard to set consistent lap times on it. So I find it boring. It has its place in the game, but it doesn't have much to offer me. Outpost 7, on the other hand, has a great deal to offer me, and an almost-useless bridge I don't have to go on isn't going to change that.
And I've spent enough time actually playing the game to feel confident in mine.Quote:
i read enough posts of people complaining about the visuals on De Konstruct to feel confident in my statements.
You seem very focused on the visuals, particularly the backgrounds. To each their own, but I'm far more interested in actual gameplay, and De Konstruct plays very well on both runs. And I quite like the way it looks anyway. You consider the claustrophobic feel a bad thing, while I think it suits the track.
Actually, Sony did increase the default clock speed from the original 222Mhz to 266Mhz with one of the 2.xx firmwares, and then later allowed developers to use the full 333Mhz, but never unlocked it for older games, even though it clearly makes them run better. So Pure and Pulse run at 266MHz on a PSP on up to date official firmware.
I may be mistaken, but I think the emulator is clocked at 333MHz by default on all games. It's set to that on mine, and I don't remember changing it.
not true, it has a few challenging corners, and one with a tricky BR… well, maybe not tricky for you and me but its not as straight-forward as doing a BR from a regular jump. on the black run its much harder to perform and its so satisfying when you get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
and thats a bad thing? the best players still have plenty to accomplish on the track to set themselves apart from newbies.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
i apologize for that statement, sounds arrogant. what i meant to say is i've seen plenty of people complain about it as well so i'm definitely not the only person. its one of the only tracks in the game people complained about the visuals - tells you something.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
alright your falling back to some kind of opinion shrugging. my statement was not meant to be subjective so if you find that to be wrong explain it with at least some detail "i like it so that means your statement is opinion too" undermines the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
i wouldn't even say the visual design of De Konstruct is bad, more like a missed opportunity. you have this twisty turny track going through a huge futuristic city and the best you can show me is metal junk near the track? there is very little sense of depth. there isn't much distance between the foreground and background in many parts of the track.
visuals are very important, its one of the reasons i fell in love with WipEout. its one of the only racing game series that blends precision gameplay with art. so visual design is very important and if you don't think so, maybe this isn't a discussion for you.
its not. default is… well… the default. same as a real PSP. the game dictates clock speed on default setting. i read this on a PPSSPP thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
for WipEout Pulse, one of the developers (may have been intoxicated or colin or both i don't remember) said it runs at 222 MHz.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
so again this is dictated by the game. i don't think there is any firmware update that forces any game to run at a faster clock speed. the firmware update only allows developers to use higher clock speeds in their games if they choose to implement it. (i think) sony would not force games to run at a higher clock speed because it could have unforeseen problems. why should a developer have to go back and patch a game that breaks because the CPU clock changed? the chances of this happening are small but with thousands of games it might be a problem for a few.
Well I've never found any of Moa's corners challenging, and only the turbo-assisted barrel roll onto the magstrip is tricky to set up. I also did somewhere between 5500 and 6000 online races when the servers were still up, and Moa stood out as the track where players who were otherwise clearly slower could keep up, and if they got lucky enough with weapons, even win. When I say it's not punishing enough, it's another way of saying it doesn't reward skill enough. Of course that's a bad thing in a competitive game.
I'm not "falling back" to opinions, it's been my position the whole time. De Konstruct isn't the best looking track, but it does what it's meant to do, which is feel like a race through a cramped "under construction" section of a city.
I do think visuals matter, just nowhere near as much as gameplay. It isn't a discussion for me? You entered the thread to respond to a guy talking about gameplay.
Yeah, I checked again, and it is indeed "default" by default. But it seems that the setting isn't actually functioning - I just tested Pulse at 125Mhz, expecting a slideshow, but it played exactly the same as 333MHz and even 500MHz!
Pulse definitely runs at 266MHz on a normal PSP on official firmware, and I've never read Colin or any of the other developers say otherwise. Maybe you're thinking of an old post about Pure?
I guess can understand Sony having concerns about forcing 333MHz for all games without testing, but they could have at least have put an option in the PSP system settings (with a "software is not guaranteed to function correctly" warning or something). And they don't seem to have a problem with allowing the Vita's PSP emulator to run old games without the restrictions.
your point being that matches are close enough that more often than not weapons make the difference between winning and losing. fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
but honestly when it comes to true competition, you need LAN to remove latency issues. Wi-Fi play is casual.
its not opinions, but opinion shrugging, as in "i like this" or "i like that". why??? opinion or not there are reasons for every decision, and if you can't give reasons in detail then i guess you don't feel very strongly about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
De Konstruct looks fine. its just that in a fairly strong track selection, that and Outpost 7 come off as the most underwhelming. - does not mean bad, it means relative to the rest.
and De Kon really would have benefited from some translucent track sections. again, huge futuristic city, but we see very little of it.
well, i did mention visual design in the first post. and the video i put was supposed to remind people what amazing visual design looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
yea same thing happens in Pure, its very strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
these were the posts i remember:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...peed#post75665
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...peed#post75694
but your right. i misinterpreted those statements as in oh i guess its a 222 MHz game, meanwhile there was already the firmware update allowing 266 MHz so i guess they settled on 266 MHz, even though they never stated exactly which clock speed they used.
i can't confirm that but makes sense, right? no i think adding an official option for people would over complicate things, i understand why they didn't. frankly the damn thing should have ran @ 333 MHz at launch. it would have been a more impressive piece of technology and we probably would have seen more PS2 ports considering the PSP @ 333 MHz is actually almost as powerful as a PS2, within the ballpark anyway (given the fact the PSP only has to render half the resolution). PS2 ports like Battlefront II ran like ass on PSP because of the 222 MHz. on 333 MHz it actually ran about as well as the PS2 version.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
Well for serious competition, you play in time trial/speed lap/zone mode, not mess about in multiplayer. Those modes were where I spent most of my time on Pulse.
Online mode was fine when it was working properly (as long as you avoided contact with other ships for the most part), but yeah, not very reliable.
That's correct, I don't feel very strongly about it. I appreciate the details, but they're not my focus, gameplay is.
Yeah, it definitely should have always been 333MHz, but I guess they were worred about battery life compared to the DS (because of their genius idea of using optical media in a handheld :lol), thought 2/3 power would be enough because it was still more than the DS had, and made the wrong call.