Sorry to be all dull and whatnot. But do we have a date yet? And a time? I'd hate for people to get into teams only to find they couldn't both be there at the same time.
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Sorry to be all dull and whatnot. But do we have a date yet? And a time? I'd hate for people to get into teams only to find they couldn't both be there at the same time.
yeah true. i can't do a test run this weekend (due to the match (i hope)) but i could get someone else to host it i suppose.
weekends the best time you reckon? i'm free for a month after 22/03/09 so i can host whenever.
also, do we want avalon style or just normal weapons on races? personally i think weapons on works best because it makes it more of a team effort.
whaddya think?
I think the main aspect of team games is trying not to hit team meates with weapons. So yeah, weapons on would be cool.
I'm torn between 2v2 and 2v2v2v2. We should definitely try both.
with regards 2v2, 2v2v2 and 2v2v2v2 i think they're all awesome so we'll just have to do all of them :D
TRIAL SESSION SATURDAY 21st MARCH 1200GMT
let me know if you (and your partner) are available for that date/time.
if loads of people aren't available then i'll find a different day OR arrange more than one trial :+
I think 2v2 would be the way to go. It will be easier to organize 4 people rather than 8. Maybe 2v2v2v2 could be used for special tournaments or something.
This is just a suggestion, but instead of a normal league sort of thing, why not do this like a clan ladder system? That is, we put up a list of the teams, and then each team challenges one of the others, sets up the match among themselves, and then both teams report back with the result. Of course you can challenge more than one team at a time if you wish. This way would be nice and flexible, and we could also get started more quickly. :g
That's my team mate Feisar there ^^. Wise words mate. :lol
Got to say before it gets too late, Weapons on. It will be more fun with weapons as then anything can happen. If we go down the Avalon avenue it will become more of a procession, where the best your team mate could do for you is to try and ram the other team.
Also I would like to make a stand for the 2v2 at first.The times that i have played with 4 people of the same skills, it has been some of the best races i have had, enjoyment wise anyway. Also very little lag in small numbers.
Not sure if that time is good for my American brother though, that's got to be 7am at the very least.
Great Idea this Yeldar :+
can we pretend i just said all of that? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
everybody follow Feisar31!
we'll see what everyone else thinks but this seems like a good place to start :D
@KGB: fair enough. 1300? later than that?
I'd love to get involved in this, but I'm a dedicated Rapier pilot and I'm thinking this'll be strictly Phantom - true?
There are two conversations going on here Yeldar ;) Where are you going to pop up next.
Not sure where Feisar is located in America, he could be over on the west coast which would be even worse for him.
Not to worry, go for which ever time you want, we will sort something out later.
Zoth-Ommog and I will team up for the doubles.
For a start, I think it would be best to start out the simple way: 2 vs. 2. If it´s a succes it can be expanded later on.
I've been having a hard time finding out how to convert CST to the 2100 GMT on March 21st to find out when it actually begins and to find out when the internationals play. I goolged it but found there are GMT+(different numbers). I wonder if anyone understands this dilemma and hopes someone can help.
(the wording is confusing i know)
TCK. Sorry if i said 2100 GMT. It's 1200GMT Yeldar's suggesting. I think that's 6am for you. So not great.
**************************************************
RULES FOR INTERNATIONAL DOUBLES LADDER - ROUGH DRAFT
I. Ladder
The ladder will be a ranked listing of all the teams currently participating in International Doubles.
- The ladder will list the following information for each team:
- The team name
- The team status (active or inactive)
- The PSN names of each player on the team, along with their respective countries (e.g. Feisar31 [USA])
- The win/loss record of the team
- The ranking score of the team
- Each team will have the status of Active or Inactive. Only active teams may challenge or be challenged by other teams. Teams that do not play a match with another team for 2 months will be automatically changed to Inactive status. Inactive teams that do not play a match for 3 months will be automatically removed from the ladder.
- Teams will be ranked on the ladder according to their ranking scores (or "ratings"). International Doubles uses an Elo rating system, like the one described on this page. Each team starts with 1500 points, and will be unranked until it has played 1 match. After each match, the ratings of the two participating teams will be updated according to this Ranking Calculator. The lowest possible rating for a team is 1000.
- All match races will be at Phantom speed with weapons on. If there is enough interest, separate Flash/Rapier ladders may be created.
II. Challenges
Eligibility:
An active team may challenge any other active team on the ladder to a match, under two conditions. Team A may challenge Team B if:
- Team B is within 500 rating points of Team A
AND- Team A has not played Team B before OR 2 months have passed since the last match between Team A and Team B.
Challenge Protocol:
- All challenges should be coordinated through the WipeoutZone PM system. All messages about the challenge should be sent/copied to all members of both teams.
- Challenges should be made at least 3 days in advance of the intended match.
- Pay attention to the countries of the members of the team you're challenging (so you don't challenge someone to a match at 3:00 in the morning in their time zone). You can use the Time Zone Converter to help you figure out a good time.
- Teams that have been challenged must give their response within 48 hours.
- Teams may decline a challenge for any reason.
The challenge process is as follows:
1. Initial Challenge
To make it easier to distinguish messages related to International Doubles, challenges should be made with the subject line:
"[ID] Team A challenges Team B". The challenge message should contain:
- The name of the challenging team (e.g. Team A)
- The PSN name of the host (one of the members of Team A)
- Proposal for the match format (8-FWD, 8-REV, 8-CUS, 12, or 16 races)
- At least two possible times for the match, including dates and stated time zone.
2. Response
ONE member of Team B should reply with the following:
- A statement indicating whether Team B accepts or declines the challenge.
If Team B accepts:- A confirmation of the match format (including track selections if necessary)
- A confirmation of one of the offered times, or the suggestion of at least 2 alternate times
The reply message should quote the initial challenge message underneath. Obviously, more messages may be needed for both teams to agree upon a time. Once the match time has been agreed upon, we get to ...
3. Final Confirmation
ONE member of Team A replies, confirming one of the original times or one of Team B's suggested times. If necessary, the message should list the final track selection for the match (including Team A's choices). The previous messages should be quoted below. This message should be sent/copied to the International Doubles organizer(s) as well as the members of both teams. The organizer(s) can update a list of upcoming scheduled matches.
III. Matches
Matches consist of one or two tournaments at Phantom speed with weapons on. The winner of the match will be determined by summing all the points earned by the players from each team: the team with the most points at the end of the tournament(s) wins the match. Matches may be 8, 12, or 16 races. (Each match counts the same amount towards a team's ranking--the number of races is simply a matter of preference.) The match options are:
- 8-race Forward: One tournament of all Forward tracks, raced in order from Vineta K to Sol 2.
- 8-race Reverse: One tournament of all Reverse tracks, raced in order from Vineta K to Sol 2.
- 8-race Custom: The challenged team (Team B) selects 4 tracks in its response message. Then the challenging team (Team A) selects the remaining 4 tracks in its final confirmation message, such that each track is represented by one version. (If Team B chooses Metropia Reverse, Team A cannot choose Metropia Forward.) The races are played in one tournament in the order they were listed, with Team B's tracks first and Team A's tracks second.
- 12-race: The challenged team (Team B) selects 6 tracks in its response message. Then the challenging team (Team A) selects the remaining 6 tracks in its final confirmation message; Team A may choose any track version not chosen by Team B. (If Team B chooses Metropia Reverse, Team A can choose Metropia Forward.) The races are played in one tournament in the order they were listed, with Team B's tracks first and Team A's tracks second.
- 16-race: One tournament of all Forward tracks followed by one tournament of all Reverse tracks, each raced in order from Vineta K to Sol 2.
Match Protocol:
- Prior to the match, members of the challenged team (Team B) should ensure that they are PSN friends of the host (one player from Team A).
- A member from each team should login to WipeoutZone on the day of the match in case the other team needs to cancel.
- The match host (from Team A) should start a Friends-only, 4-player room at least 5 minutes before the agreed match time. If both players from the challenged team (Team B) have not joined the game within 15 minutes of the scheduled match time (or they have not communicated their cancellation to Team A), the match is forfeited by Team B.
- When all players have joined, the host should begin with one single race to ensure that there are no connection issues for any of the players.
- After the single race, the host should set up the tournament agreed upon beforehand. Then all players should indicate they are ready for the match to begin by "flashing" their ships--going to the ship selection screen and choosing their ship again. The host should be the first player the "flash" his or her ship; then the 2nd player listed on the lobby screen should go, and then the 3rd player, and then the last. During this time the host should make sure the tournament does not start automatically due to the timer. Once all 4 players are ready, the host may start the match.
- For 16-race matches, a 5 minute break should be taken between the first and second tournaments. The same system of flashing ships should be used to start the second tournament.
- At the end of the tournament(s), a player from each team should take a clear photo of the tournament results screen. These images must be sent to the International Doubles organizer(s) within 24 hours of the match. If only one team submits their images, the result of the match will be determined from those images. (* Since most if not all members of this forum are trustworthy, I don't think it would be a problem if the two teams agreed upon just one photo taker beforehand.) If no images are submitted, no result will be recorded.
- In the case of a tie after the normal number of races, an 8-race tournament (all Forward tracks) should be held immediately to determine the match winner.
- When the match is over, Team B's players should feel free to remove themselves as PSN friends from the host (so as not to accumulate a ton of friends).
Network Trouble:
- If a player disconnects/is disconnected during the match, the tournament should be stopped and restarted immediately, if the player is able to rejoin. The host may be switched to Team A's other player if that might help.
- If the disconnected player cannot rejoin, or if he or she becomes disconnected again, the match should be rescheduled.
Each team should notify the International Doubles organizer(s) of any match cancellations or postponements, so that they can keep an updated list of scheduled matches.- If the same team has disconnections during the rescheduled match, that team forfeits the match, receiving a loss. The other team is awarded a win.
**************************************************
Phew! Of course these are just my initial ideas: feel free to change anything and everything!
Also, I think some rules like this are necessary, but despite all that above I hope people won't take the ladder too seriously. If you end up on top it won't mean that you're masters of the Wipeout universe; if you end up at the bottom it won't mean that you are hopeless and should give up (besides, kgb and I will have a claim on that spot :g).
That'll work just fine.
sunday 21st march midnight i can't be there for the trial :(
But i am still interested to take part of this ;)
For Feisar31:
What a brilliant job you did :+.
I have a few inputs/ideas, that might be useful.
(Btw, excuse my english - it can be quite difficult to explain these kind of things, when it´s not your native tongue).
My simple idea: The winning team gets 2 points, the loosing team 0. In case of a draw: 1 point for each team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
The team´s ranking is determined by amount of points divided by the number of matches the team has played.
Ex.: Your team has played 7 matches, you´ve got 9 points. 9 divided by 7 = 1.29, which will put your team somewhere (?) on the ranking-list.
And Weapons On, I´ll presume :lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
Why not make it one 12 races-tournament?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
Team A chooses 6 tracks and then Team B chooses 6 tracks, which are not already chosen by Team A.
In a not so far future, SL might give us more tracks to choose from :P.
This is a very difficult part to control. In theory: If my team was loosing, I could just shut off my black box. I have great trust in you guys, but it could happen ... (Right, Leungbok ;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar31
oh my days feisar 31!!
feel free to take over ;)
great stuff :D 16:00 GMT better for a test?
Cool rules, but I believed the aim is to play 2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 2, 4 teams by race?!
I repeat you I've played like this with other frenchies, it's very fun.
I propose too to do teams with a suppleant.
"We're all jumping and singing we win, We're all jumping and singing we win, We're all jumping and singing, We're all jumping and singing, We're all jumping and singing when we win!
"We're a right bunch of b*stards when we lose! We're a right bunch of b*stards when we lose! We're a right bunch of b*stards, We're a right bunch of b*stards, We're a right bunch of b*stards when we lose!" :g
Team Amorbis & OBH fans singing before the start of the race :g:D
@feisar 31: what you posted is brilliant and it's far more thought out ans sensible than anything i could have come up with.
would it be alright if i put it in my post on the first page? quoted or copied and credited, it's up to you :D
would it be possible to incorporate multiple pair (2v2v2v2) matches into this system or should we keep it separate?
@OBH: you have a fan base already? you work very fast indeed ;)
If we have 4 teams, 1st win 6 points, 2nd 4 points, 3rd 2 points and 4th 0 points. If you have 3 teams, 4, 2 and 0 point.
In the case of tie, e.g. two team first : 5 points each.
cool. we'll see what others think but it seems like a good plan :)
by the way, do you have a partner yet kaori? just so i can update the list
Maybe leungbok, I don't tell him :lol
Well my team mate there certainly has a mind for this type of thing, very well thought out Fiesar31.
I don't want to be a spoil sport, but i still think we should go for 2v2 and see how that goes, or 2v2v2 at least. I have a concern about lag in these things. When playing people of an equal skill to your own, things become very tight and you notice strange things happening to your ship that normally do not happen in usual races. I'm sure we could reduce this a bit with a few less people in each room.
I think the points need looked at.
If it is 2v2 then why not 3 for a win and 1 for a loss. That way you are being rewarded for participation even if you did lose.
2v2v2 then 4 for a win 2 for second place and 1 for last place.
2v2v2v2 then 6 for a win 4 second 2 third and 1 last.
I think this balances out, as winning an 8 player match should be rewarded more than a 2 player one. (not that I want to play an 8 player match, but it could be used for the future).
I couldn't think of any thing worse than Yeldar sitting at the bottom of the pile with no points, we should at least give him some for trying ;) The poor mite. :lol
:lol:lol:P:P:lol:lol:g:gQuote:
Originally Posted by KGB1971
aww that had me laughing out loud!
Ok Kaori, let's be partners ;)
the only way i'm coming last is out of sympathy for you. besides, asa will protect me with his divine powers :)Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB1971
*secretly curls up into a ball and begins to weep*
moving on, ok then, we'll start with just 2v2 and see how it goes. more can be introduced and if there's too much lag then we'll peg it back a notch.
groovy
Your probably not wrong mate. :lol
Excellent leadership quality's there as well, make a decision and move on. good stuff.
I don't think it matters if people can not make the test run, we can all race when ever we want and 2v2 will be so much easier to manage. I am not totally against more players, but I just know people will start to get a bad vibe from losing if they feel it has anything to do with their Internet Connection. (ie. me and Saturn:lol). So I just think to begin with we could make it simple, so no one loses interest or gets sick of being rammed, bombed or missiled to ****.
We could maybe arrange special meets for 8 players at a later date, a one off weekend where we can try have a few 8 player races over the course of a day, special points given to best performers or most improved, that kind of thing.
I'm glad we've gone with 2v2 for now. I was going to try and steer it in that direction with some subtle hints but I didn't have to. Yay! I think it's best from an organizational point of view. Can you imagine trying to arrange a match with 8 players if it had to be the same 2 people in each team every time? I think that would be tough. Not to mention the nightmare of scoring a league, despite the good ideas people have put forward.
As for blaming connection issues for losing. That was initially why I wanted to try 2v2v2v2 as well. Just to see if it made a difference having one less person gunning for me. But as I said, it's good to keep it simple for easy organization.
So, myself and TarotCardKiller are now a confirmed team and ready to take on all challengers. So who's up for it?
TarotCardKiller - we might have to come to some kind of compromise for this. Let's say that in the first match we kick arse. Then in the second match we'll kick ass. Deal?
agreed, a test is just a test after all.
:lol classicQuote:
Originally Posted by SaturnReturn
I knew I forgot something! Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJPAP
That would be fine, or we could add it as another option. Personally, I find 12 races in a row to be a bit much, but that could just be part of the competition. ;) I think that Team B should get first choice on their 6 tracks though.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJPAP
You're right. I think if we have teams notify the International Doubles organizer(s) of any changes to the match times (so they can update the schedule), then it would become clear if any team was intentionally disconnecting. I'll add something to the rules about that. Also if the same team has disconnections on the rescheduled match then I think they would have to forfeit. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the other team that showed up twice to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJPAP
Sure! Although you might want to wait a little longer so we can get more comments and suggestions. The rules still need some work. But maybe you could start collecting team names? Hereafter KGB and I shall be known as "Voodoo Rage". :gQuote:
Originally Posted by yeldar2097
About the rankings: I don't care what ranking system we use, but ... I looked into it a little, and it seems most gaming ladders use some form of the Elo rating system (check it out on Wikipedia). I'll try to give you the basic idea of it.
Everyone starts with an average rating, say 1500. After each game, the ratings for each player are updated. First, you find the expected win percentage for the player, based on the current ratings. For instance, if Team A has 2500 points (top tier) and Team B has 500 points (bottom tier), then the probability that Team A would win is over 95%. For Team B, the win percentage is the opposite--less than 5%.
Then you look at the actual result. Did Team A win? If so, the rankings are correct in this instance, so Team A gets a small amount of points added and Team B gets a small amount of points subtracted. However, if Team B won, that means the current rankings are not as accurate as they should be, so Team A gets a lot of points added and Team B gets some points subtracted.
Of course, there is more to it than that; most ladders vary the amount of points you can win or lose depending on your rating. If we were to use this kind of system, I thought a variation on the Elo system as used in Go might work well. I could make a simple ranking calculator on a web page if we agreed on a good formula. But again, if you guys want to use something else (something simpler ;)) then that's fine with me.
wow, thanks so much for this feisar31
doesn't mean i'll be going easy on you but its much appreciated all the same.
good ranking idea, i'm all for it if everyone else is.
voodoo rage it is :D
Elo system is the best!
ok so plan is: arrange a couple of test matches, then if all goes well, we'll start it up properly with a badass ranking system and everything!
i'm getting rather excited :D
PULSE:
Ok, so tonight (Friday) on 20H00 GMT we are doing a test team racing.
The Tracks for tonight will be:
Random-made picking of tracks: 11 15 23 14 4 2 21 1 10 17 9 20 24 18 16 7 6 13 22 12 5 3 19 8
Track List:
Session 1:
- Tech De Ra White (weapons ON) (11)
- Fort Gale White (weapons OFF) (15)
- Outpost 7 White (weapons ON) (23)
- The Amphiseum Black (weapons OFF) (14)
- Moa Therma Black (weapons ON) (4)
- Talon's Junction Black (weapons OFF) (2)
- Vertica White (weapons ON) (21)
- Talon's Junction White (weapons OFF) (1)
- De Konstruct Black (weapons ON) (10)
- Basilico White (weapons OFF) (17)
- De Konstruct White (weapons ON) (9)
- Platinum Rush Black (weapons OFF) (20)
---20min pause
Session 2:
- Outpost 7 Black (weapons ON) (24)
- Basilico Black (weapons OFF) (18 )
- Fort Gale Black (weapons ON) (16)
- Arc Prime White (weapons OFF) (7)
- Metropia Black (weapons ON) (6)
- The Amphiseum White (weapons OFF) (13)
- Vertica Black (weapons ON) (22)
- Tech De Ra Black (weapons OFF) (12)
- Metropia White (weapons ON) (5)
- Moa Therma White (weapons OFF) (3)
- Platinum Rush White (weapons ON) (19)
- Arch Prime Black (weapons OFF) (8 )
The participants for tonight will (most probably) be: supersox, seraph, darkdrium777 and me.
For tonight, we'll do a testing between two teams, and see how it goes, and if we need some further tweaks to do there...
Team 1: supersox - Darkdrium777
Team 2: seraph - archman
The ranking system for a 2v2 match:
1st: 7 points
2nd: 5
3rd: 3
4th: 1
...and we sum the each points of two teammates separately at the end and give it to the corresponding team. (awful explanation, but you probably got it already :D)
If you have any suggestions, please PM me or post your ideas here. ;)
-WARNING: the sessions are password protected!
btw.: This is a mirror post to "Online meetings, Pulse".
I will belatedly join this. I think 2v2v2v2 should be better than 4v4.
groove armada, any idea who you're planning to team up with.
i'll bet there's a long list of people who would gladly oblige :)
Frankie goes to hollywood :D, It's no good throwing your weight around now Welly. It's all been decided. :lol. And no, I already have a partner.:P
Glad to see you have come out of semi-retirement.
does he really?
semi-retirement what now? eh? oh never mind.
who is free on the 21st of march? please give times so i can sort out how many sessions there will be/when they will be.
cheers
Yes he generally will from time to time.:P
What's that saturday? Are we planning on doing this all on the same day or something?