Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.
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Can't do snaking, period. Hands not coordinated enough. Hates using super heavy ships in F-Zero GX. Needs to stop using sentence fragments.
Sntns frgs cn stl xprss opnyn, but more thorough and accurate articulation of one's thoughts is more often my preference. ;) :g
I've taken some time and read through this thread. I personally think, that the WZ records tables are still working fine. If people want to use the speed mod, let them do it. To me something like this doesn't look like cheating, it's using an in-game mechanic which, as sadly and unrealisticas as it may be, is just there. And you don't have to use any tape at all to take advantage from that in-game mechanic. You can use your fingers to push the nose of your ship down the whole race, like it seems Al does by holding his PSP in some weird way (could you post a video or something, I'd really like to see what you described about holding the console in your hands a few pages earlier ;)).
Using CFW to make your PSP run at 333mhz is a whole different issue imo.
Your lightly sarcastic comment hits the spot Lance! It sounds a lot like we're talking about doping in real life sports: Why not let everyone do it? Because if you did, it wouldn't be sports anymore, but be some competition between the big pharma companies about who produces the best steriods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
The same goes for CFW, I think. This is no simple in-game mechanic and who can tell if someone is using CFW for clocking his PSP at 333mhz only? Maybe this person is using some selfmade programm which influences, say, the numbers of turbo boosts you get during a race? PSP Wipeout was not made for 333mhz, so take it with all its flaws (barrel roll bug due to framerate issues) or leave it I say. And what will some people like Rapier Racer or myself say if we'd suddenly allow CFW-times in the tables? We have never been using CFW and at least I never will.
Btw, I was talking to lunar about a similar thing more than a year ago when we all started playing Pure online with XLink Kai: Is it allowed to enter the records achieved while playing online? The tables' rules say you have to race against a fukll grid of opponents! I've never had only one stable race against more than 4 opponents on XLink Kai. So, are those records legit? Do we all have to erase our Pure records from the tables now?
For me, in the end it all comes down to this:
The Wipeoutzone records tables have been working on a system of honesty until today and they will do so in the future to come. Every pilot should decide for himself if using an intended in-game mechanic "to the max" is ok or not. Using some kind of external help, like CFW and clocking the PSP to 333mhz, should not be allowed in the tables imo.
In a perfect gaming world, all games would be programmed perfectly and there would be no flaws to exploit, but of course there is no such world, and we are left to either exploit the flaws or set up separate leagues on an honour system to choose not to exploit those flaws. It is a very difficult problem because different people have a different outlook on whether the absolute fastest time is important, or whether the flaws can actually be used for fun, or whether it is important to play the game as realistically as possible, or... et cetera. All competition eventually comes to this: A specific set of people agree to temporarily divide from the rest of humanity and play a specific game a specific way. The question becomes: Are there enough players who agree on that way to make playing that rule-set practical, and also satisfying to the participants.
That's what we're faced with here. And if we're only going to have one set of records and rules to make them by, then there are going to be unhappy people. If we have too many sets of rules, then the competition becomes less meaningful because many who might be the best players are in separate leagues and you may never know who's the truly the best. There is also this: Is knowing who's the best at a particular game/pastime actually important?
I know I am offering no solutions in this; I'm just trying to sum up the issues a bit.
LONG AND GLORIOUS HISTORY OF ABBREVIATED SENTENCES USED IN TELEGRAMS STOPQuote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
WOULD LIKE TO SHOW MODERN TXTSPK TO ORWELL STOP WOULD CHUCKLE DELIGHT
UNFORTUNATELY TIME MACHINE REQUIRED STOP END MESSAGE
:lol
Count me in with the people who fervently hope for this mod not to be required in future WO games. At the lower speeds in particular, it's really really annoying to have to hold the "up" arrow down all the time. Wouldn't a real machine be designed so that the default position is the most aerodynamic?
And, if real ships contained some lever or pedal to control the tile, I don't think real drivers would hesitate for a moment to put a brick on top of the pedal (or something similar) so that they could nose the ship down while having their hands and feet free for other activities!
The day I give my blessing to custom firmware will be the day Satan is ice skating to work. :-Quote:
Originally Posted by Asayyeah
This whole charade involving the interperatation of the rules for competition on this site really does sadden me. There should be no doubt about how those rules are written; no modifications of any nature.
Yes, I conceded before that it was impossible to police, but then so are most of the other forms of cheating in an honour based system. The clue is in the title - I find the honourable way to compete is to play with an unmodified console with a real version of the game, an unmodified controler, and do the best I can from there.
And a vast majority of the time it isn't good enough. I occupy exactly zero spots at the top of the tables on the site I created, but it doesn't motivate me to cheat in any shape or form; just try harder. That's what an honour based system is, to me.
WipEout 3 was ruined for me the day I found out how much easier it was to play with a NegCon. I put the NegCon back in the box and stopped going for times pretty much there and then. Still, I had to concede that it isn't cheating, because it's an official peripheral and that goes with the territory.
However, I actually cheered aloud when I learned that Brett Holland had set that ludicrous Zone mode score with a humble dual shock, because, in my view, that was about the purest way you could do it; he bought his console, the controler that goes with it, a tv and the disc. Bang. Best in the world and no **** about it.
Oggob got it - You play the game and you run the races without any modifcations to anything. That's the way I do it - that's the spirit and the motivation that led me to create this community and work so hard on the records tables.
But over time, somehow, it's become "okay" to bend the rules here and there because "everyone is doing it", or it's "necessary to get a good time."
I bet it ****ing is. I bet Ben Johnson thought it was absolutely necessary to take drugs to get the best times because, as good as he was, he wasn't good enough to beat the rest of the Olympians without it. :rolleyes:
I'm with Packetmon - the system is there, the rules are written, and if your personal measure of "honour" allows you to believe you can pick and choose when the rules apply to you, then I certainly am not going to respect you, and yet; who the hell am I to stop you?
No one, because I cant. I'm not the man or woman you see in the mirror, but maybe I'm the man you're going to look in the eye one day and say "yeah, I bent the rules because it meant more to me to be on top of the records than to preserve the integrity of what we had here at WipEoutZone."
If you think you can do that without a pang of conscience, then have at it - get taping, re-wiring, ISO-ripping and CFW'ing 'til your heart is content. But don't anyone pretend for a minute that I condone it or that it's in the spirit that this community was originally created to foster.
If you were really on packetmon's side regarding this, then the Speed Mod would be in violation of the honour system too.
And I guess flaming some of our most well-respected users would be cool too, since he's all for not cheating as well, and that totally cancels it out.
When do we change the site's name to 4chan again? :brickwall
hear! hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
Here's where I stand:
neGcon - Perfectly legal. (The mere notion that people should be made to feel guilty for using it absolutely sickens me. :- )
Turbo Scraping in WO3 - Skill move, again, should be legal.
Shortcutting in 2097/64/WO3 - See "Turbo Scraping" - you actually need to be inherently fast to do it.
CFW - Run Pure at 222 or don't post any times for it. That's as much as I want to say.
Infinite Turbo and Shield in WO3 - Hell no.
Fusion Lap Bug - See Infinite Turbo.
And this is where the Speed Mod is in a terribly grey area. It's a "console mod" but it's not a "console mod." It's a controller mod but the controller is part of the console itself.
so Rob, If you do not want the tape on the psp for records, just say definitively that it is not allowed and I will certainly take out the couple of times I have with that, it isn't a problem for me, and the others that have gotten times with that will take it out as well, I'm sure.
The question is this though
1) If sony comes out with firmware allowing 333 for every game, will records be allowed using 333 since it is official?
2) If certified peripherals for the psp come out that make playing the game easier, maybe like ps3 controller compatability, OR the already component cables, do you find that ok to use?
I think one of the problems causing this, is just playing wipeout with a dpad. It just really isn't very good when you add the extra speed boost holding it foward, and really not fun at all to play like that, with the ship going left and right all of the time.
Also, controllers have always been modified for the best gameplay experience, ranging from PC games to even atari controllers. Another problem is peripherals that make a gameplay experience much better(or easier)(or worse) depending on your perspective. I would argue that wipeout was made with the negcon in mind. I don't even think ridge racer one, made by namco had that support in, and wipeout might have been the first game to use it just right.
For the record, I probably won't ever use the speed mod-- and certainly would not use it if the executive decision is made that it is against the rules. So I don't have much to win or loose here.
But this is a CONTROLLER modification, for ****'s sake. I have never witnessed a ban on controller mods in time trials or speed runs for other games. And Sony ITSELF has set the PSP on unstable ground because of constantly evolving firmware. Already we have seen one upgrade in processor power applied to Wipeout Pure, and as Jabberjaw points out, we may have another. I don't doubt that other features of firmware affect game performance.
I think folks are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the times on our record tables SUCK and don't reflect hardcore dedication to obtaining the fastest laps-- mine included, for the most part. We are talking about issues that only affect the very, very tip-top of the record tables. The only people that should be concerned are the very top racers-- and even then, I think we are mostly witnessing disappointment that their particular times have been overtaken.
In any case, I think that some explicit decision needs to be reach about "Jay's speed mod" and about CFW-- to me the current situation feels like "don't ask, don't tell." That's not where we want to be IMHO.
I never use "the tip" either. Why I don't do Pure time tables very often is just due to the sheer amount of tracks and speed classes, it's quite a lot to keep up with.
That's unrelated though.
I think Rob has already made his decision about CFW completely clear.
I still can't believe there's any remaining doubts after Rob's post. To me he just said no to both CFW and speed mod in that post, if you can't read that well I suggest you try harder. :brickwall
However he also said that if you think you're a smartass enough of a person, to go ahead and **** the system he put in place in the community. Just don't expect anything from him in return. :-
IMHO this is pretty clear cut. Thanks Rob for the answer, although I didn't doubt one second it wouldn't be like that according to the rules. :nod I shall stay away from the tables, I respect that.
Hi,
This thread makes me feel really uncomfortable now. My personal experience : I just wanted to push my speed lap times further. I was first upset (why now/so late? Why Kandang is not posting here anymore?), because I realized the competition was unfair. But I tried it (like a red bull can, like a neggie, like a coffee). I used this mod with my Piranha, & I was able to get 20:47 on –my favourite track- tech white, instead of a 20.81 (ugly stick certified). I’ve made about 10000 laps on tech white. I’ve reached the physical limits of my hands & my ship on it. I just wanted to go further. Now I feel guilty for that. I really think like Frances Penfold this mod is only effective when you know the track VERY well. And I’m not sure this mod is efficient for all the tracks. I first thought this piece of tape wasn’t a big deal. But when I saw people that I respect saying it’s cheating, I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want to play online & be treated as a cheater. I admired Packetmon huge dedication for the game, till’ he over-reacted… I really preferred Flashback response (“reluctant I will”, “I shall overcome eventually”). But now I’m sure he’s not going to try that. So that’s why I’m back with my “pure” ugly stick. I’m not happy with that, because psp handling is AWFUL (d-pad or stick) for the majority of us. My personal conclusion is : pure & pulse were designed for monkeys (Jabberjaw, no offense, I mean real monkeys, with 4 real hands). So the game must be forbidden to apes, because they have a physical advantage. (Cheetah gave me a call, she wants now to sue Sony Liverpool). Sorry it’s not funny. I’m just pissed off by the weird atmosphere here.
Anyway, I want to apologize to ALL for my white speed lap times recently posted on wo-game (except talon). I was wrong when I first thought this mod will put the competition further. That’s really not the case. I understand why.
Sorry for my bad English.
bye
The fact you're suggesting I'm making you feel guilty for using it doesn't surprize me at all, so spare me the hyperbole.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
The man lost the plot and made an outburst - I'm pretty sure Arnaud recognises that because he's done it himself, as have I on more than one occasion. It doesn't make his point any less valid because he was upset, but don't let that stop you from using it against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
For the record, paketmon is so upset about what he said to Arnaud that he's asked me to delete his account. There's a man with a conscience.
Why not - then you can go judging people and the worth of their comments to your heart's content.Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ O'Connell
Does the piece of tape come in the box with the PSP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances_Penfold
Does it come in the box with the dual shock or NecGon?
No, and if a piece of tape or a rubber band does come in the packaging, then it's certainly not intended for "modding" the controller.
The way I believed it should work when I first wanted to create a community site for WipEout;
You use:
- Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Put them all together, play the game, and report your times with honesty and integrity, and I can see no fairer way of implementing an honour based records comparison system than that.
If there's a grey area, like the one you're suggesting Sony has brought upon us all, then it's being introduced outside the boundaries of our rules, not by them.
I am back to earth now! I think I got carried away just like Kanar. Also I felt like I had to prove a point against the records made by Kandang. But for me it is more important to be honest and being a part of this awesome community. Therefore I deleted all my modded times and entered my records made in the official way.
Still I am hoping to find out if Kandang is using CFW and the tip or not. Just like I am waiting on a reply from Flashback_Jack if he is using CFW or not. If I am wrong by thinking like this, then I am sorry and maybe I am more arrogant then I think I am.
Greetz Mad-Ice
I agree with what Mad-Ice is doing, and I think we`ve all been on a journey in this thread. I think Rob has stated this community`s values and we need to play by them.
But I do think people have discussed "allowing" various mods with the best of intentions - to create a level playing field. Almost all of us just want to compete fairly and have the outcome dependent on skill not hardware. We`re not all crazy to win at all costs, but the situation since Pulse has been released has frustrated a lot of people and we`ve been looking for the answer. Asa, Mad-Ice, RR, Tom, Al, me and many others fought the fight against cfw on the Pure tables for years. Those tables are pretty much clean as a whistle in this regard and do represent people`s achievments fairly. We need to get the Pulse tables to this level - I think that`s what we all want and it`s far more important than anything else.
But in discussing "allowing" stuff I think we`re confusing the unholy, unmoderated mess of wipeout-game with what we can achieve on Wipeout Zone where we have a forum, moderators and enforceable rules that we can use. Any fair player will do what the rules say, and those that won`t can bugger off, and I think the best thing would be a clear statement amounting to this in the rules:
- Console - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Controller - as it was when you took it out of the box.
- Game - as it was when you took it out of the box.
Maybe Al will destroy us with his alien hands, we`ll have to live with it or genetically modify ourselves.
Anyone playing with cfw should remove their times, and to balance this no controller mods should be used. I`ve changed my point of view many times over the course of this thread, but now I think that if this is established it`s the only way we`re going to move on to the point where we settle arguments on the track instead of the forum. I can see the logic in Al`s argument on this, but I don`t think we`re going to move on from here until we give up the idea of allowing this "mod".
I really think Xavier (Darkdrium) is setting an example to all. It was always my view that people should have to choose: you can have cfw or you can enter times here. We should stick with this. Leaving it to people`s conscience isn`t quite going to cut it, imo. And if we`re going to have zero-tolerance on cfw we should do the same for the tape-mod; it will help the keep the peace for one thing. People who don`t like it can go to wipeout-game.
This rule underpins all competition here:
"Times must be set on an unmodified console which is the same region as the copy of the game. (e.g. PAL PS2 and PAL game disc.)"
There`s no reason why we have to give this up, and an "out of the box condition" controller rule would help too. I think we will have to be willing to ask for walkthroughs and videos in Pulse on new records until the situation is settled - otherwise people are going to get frustrated again by times they feel unable to trust.
As an aside, rules that enforce standard hardware are what allow us to spot fake times. If it wasn`t for standard hardware on the "legacy" games, for example, how could the fastest players set benchmarks for what is possible and what is not? Without these benchmarks how could we spot cheaters? Allowing mods of any kind if only going to confuse things in the end and make this job harder.
Yep-- on the plastic sleeve holding the warrantee registration card-- some people just want to move it onto the analog nubbin :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
In all seriousness, the problem with this argument regarding controller mods is this...
Not all controllers are born equally, and they sure as hell are altered naturally by use. Does that make Medusa's times invalid? Should she sell her PSP to the highest bidder at WOZ because it's an unmod'd controller that behaves like an outlawed mod'd one? That's why simple controller mods are almost always allowed for time trials and speed runs-- it is impossible to level the playing field. And if you try, you end up telling player X that he can't file the base of the D-pad to facilitate zig-zag mini turbos in Mario Kart Super Circuit while Player Y has effectively done this already by playing Mario Kart DS on his console... a situation that clearly isn't fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medusa
Not that I don't appreciate the "hard-line" approach-- I just want to point out that it's atypical even amongst sites that have TONS of very specific rules and that require pretty much everybody to document their times with videos :)
Edit--
If the decision is to very clearly outlaw CFW, I think that needs to be stated bluntly because some people don't interpret CFW as a mod. Just say it-- "All times must be set on a console running official Sony firmware-- custom firmwares are not permitted."
I was talking about everyone here who uses a neGcon regularly, not just myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by infoxicated
We have our answer now. The Speed Mod is not authorised for use on the tables.
Now can we all just shut up, leave this discussion behind and go about our lives? :wall
This discussion has gone too far away, i belong to the minority who think CFW and tip makes the game so much more enjoyable than in an original way of racing, i for one to consider playing with Dpad stick-to-the-track on old wipeouts is pretty boring, negcon and flying technique rule and make the game such awesome. That is my feeling and i am happy with that.
Now i am not stupid nor egocentric, i understand the points from the majority here (same for french site), so i will follow the lines stated by Rob : No tip = i will delete immediately after finishing this post my ntsc pure phantom goteki scores, i will also delete pulse scores ( not that i done them with cfw or tip but it's the 'cleaning'-'wiped-out' day soooo... )
Kai = gimme time to collect and print my records done through Xlink Kai ( even it's easier to race AI ships than humans : big example where the majority can be wrong thinking kai it's so easy to have top scores in SR, tsss tsss tsss) i will delete them after.
Hey! if majority starts to think flying through buildings is not allowed ( it was ok before but maybe new members will think it's not fair afterall and bla-bla-bla), think what? i am gonna also wipe my scores ( 2097/XL/W3OSE).
You look at me as an extremist, right? partially true mates but like someone mentionned it here, we are few top players who don't care about our ranking , we know what we are capable to do and that's fine with us.
So if i find time in future and courage i ll upload 'normal' scores : but as you know the games are dull without (imo) but who cares ??? ah yes only the minority i am belonging.
To conclude :
I found amazing friends here and i am glad to met them personaly in real life ( Asa world wide traveller : and i approve this message :P) i also want deeply meet those i haven't ( Lunar, Xtriko, RJO, Frances, El Habib, the aussies strong team, etc...) so my travelling quest is not finished yet but my motivation racing has lowered but again who cares. end of rant.
Btw wipeout-game and me : CFW 333 + tip on ( in order to be clear) // WZ = OFW no tip
Happy majority
They can take your records away, son, but they can never, never take your pride away.
Sorry, had to :P This thread has become way to uneasy...
On a serious side note: I've been watching this discussion from the sidelines (since I don't go about embarrassing myself by posting times), and I fear there is no solution that everyone can be happy with. If you see rules as rules, it is as Rob stated, and everything including CFW, Tape, Shortcutting, and even Xlink Kai is illegal. Don't be angry at him for enforcing those rules, it's not like he wants anyone to be excluded.
On the other hand, I take it from pro pilots like Arnaud, that (as an example) doing SR on Kai doesn't give you any benefit compared to racing the AI. Now if someone as renowned as Arnaud says that, I'll believe it. But if some new kid on the block claims the very same thing, I wouldn't trust him so easily. So we need rules to create a level playing field, and level playing field here also means in terms of credibility. How do we gain that? By cancelling out any source of doubt: *copypaste* CFW, Tape, Shortcutting, and even Xlink Kai. There you go.
So much for my 2 cents.
Hope the whole honor code here doesn't break down over a piece of tape, sheeesh!
I'm loathe to even discuss such things here, fearing attack from bloodthirsty dogmatists, however, I should point out that CFW is not the sole determinant of success some make it out to be. Highly probable point in case -- by sheer number, there are likely far more CFW users situated below the top ten spots on wipeout-game.com than within it. Having said that, plausibly successful results under any firmware (modified or otherwise) is a chiefly a result of effort and experimentation, and I should hope that nobody's effort would be discounted even if they did use CFW sans-hacks, because frankly, around here it's taken on little more than faith that it provides an advantage. Pounce at your leisures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Ice
That's the logic of it as it see it. It should be clear by my post history whether I'm for or against CFW.
Just to put my own experience into perspective, I've been hotlapping racing games since my early teens, on clean consoles as well as modified ones. I've put up world record times on a number of games and won prizes in commercially sponsored competitions. Throughout all of that, two things remained constant -- head-splitting repetition and sweat-inducing persistence. Concerning Pulse, I'm in excess of 350 hours and counting. Persistence, in my opinion, is the main prerequisite to success -- but we know that already. Nobody should even motion to link my or anyone's success to any one element in this gaming equation, particularly an element as static as firmware. :)
- F
One thing is constant in racing, no matter what set of rules is in effect: The winner is always the person or team that has the best combination of these three things: genetic superiority, the most ferocious desire to win, and the most self-disciplined dedication to achieving the goal.
Actually if you've got number two, number three will naturally follow. You will spend any amount of time and resources to gain victory.
375 entries deleted ( ntsc pure & Pulse )
Seriously speaking and trust me guys: I will NEVER delete my scores from old wipeouts.
if Rob forces me to do this i prefer not to do it myself and leave the site.
:rolleyes: Nobody asked you to delete your times at all Asa, be it Pure, Pulse or the older WipEouts. As far as I can follow this thread you chose to do so by yourself and I'm pretty sure Rob wouldn't force anybody to do anything concerning the tables, he said so a few pages before IIRC...
I'm fully respecting Rob's view of things concering the records tables and I must say I fully agree with it after having now read through all the posts in this thread. I also agree with eLhabib about adding to the rules section the facts that using CFW and controller- or console-modding of any kind is not allowed. I'll be deleting my Pure Euro times this weekend (since most of them were done racing online with Kai) and exchange them with times done in single player mode. I've always worked with two profiles, one for online racing and one for offline single player, so this won't be a big deal for me. All my Pure US records are from single player only, so they'll all stay where they are now.
I'm not forcing anybody to do anything.
Never have done, never will.
What I'm asking is that people participate within the spirit of the rules.
If any individial feels that this is an imposition on their freedom, then they are free to leave of their own accord.
Rob, one question if I may: how about times set with the special craft only obtainable in the EU? Wipeout-game.com accepts them, something I find unfair since they separate Wipeout Pulse players into "privileged EU residents" and "second-class people in the rest of the world.
Those craft are at least as difficult to obtain for someone outside the EU as a NeGcon is for someone in it.
(Forgive me if this was debated before; I haven't been a member for that long.)
I race using "what makes the game most enjoyable" -- I'll go back to a standard controller when preparing times for competition (not that I'll ever crack the top 10 in anything). Acquiring a NeGcon was what got me back into Wipeout (and on to this board) -- it turned the original WO from a frustrating, difficult game to an extremely fun and thrilling racer. On the PSP I'd love to try the mod just for fun -- by the time my abilities have risen far enough to be in competition with the greats, I'll probably be able to drive without it.
My opinion: neGcon is a controller officially supported by the built-in programming and menus of Wipeout versions on the original PlayStation. Not supported in Fusion or anything after. So I think it is valid to use one on those games that support it for making record times on the consoles it was made for, but not to hack a way to use it on anything else, nor to modify it to gain an advantage over other neGcons. neGcons are available to anyone who takes the trouble to get one. It is probably hardly any more of a problem to obtain than it is to obtain the games that support it.
Negcons are even supported in the games` software. For me they bring the games to life, and Wipeout 1 feels like it was designed for that controller.
I`d also support a new and explicit "no custom firmware" and "no controller mods" rule. I think the times have changed and something new is needed, so it`s totally clear and it leaves no room for people to interpret the rules in their own way. Also, in the future, people may not have read this thread before they submit times and it would be easier not to have to have these arguments again!
If my memory serves me, NegCons are supported in Fusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
Yes!, in NTSC version.;)
stevie:)
:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Asayyeah
Bloody ****ing marvelous. I am nearly done assembling a combined ranking system for Wipeout Pure + Pulse and our top competitor pulls half of his records because using a piece of tape on the controller is interpretted by some people as cheating :rolleyes:
The last thing Wipeout records need is more exclusivity. As a community, we SUCK at time trial competition-- we have so few participants and for the most parts, our records are **** compared to other franchises like Mario Kart and F-zero. I'd rather have CFW and speed mods used against me any day of the week rather than splintering our existing record system.
"Don't ask don't tell" was better :(
Is it really the majority? Or a few people that are pissed about their records?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asayyeah
Yes, NeGcon is supported in Fusion. Not only recognized from the game but officially supported on the back of the box.
The way I see the whole dilemma, if you can even call something as ridiculous as the matter at hand a dilemma, is twofold:
Firstly, pitching your nose up and down is a mechanic coded into the game without abusing a glitch or something. It's not the players' fault that the PSPs shabby d-pad and hardly controllable nub are uncapable of letting you work with that mechanic in the way it was meant, i.e. pitch AND turn.
Secondly, I don't think it's as easy as many think to classifiy a console "unmodified". As the Mario Kart example showed, in the right context a used console can be interpreted as "modified". Given that my d-pad is loose from playing Street Fighter and Tekken so much that pulling off barrel rolls is never a problem (although the game wants them to be one in certain situations, while the devs had them in mind as a 100%-working mechanic- like pitching!), my console would fit into the "modified" scheme because it gives me an advantage over a brand new PSP (flaws from production not even taken into account here!).
As Asa stated, I too think that under CFW with "tip" the game plays as it should, and while CFW can easily be disallowed due to its either-or nature, i.e. being applied to a console or not with all known consequences, I don't think you can go ahead and label a stock console modified or unmodified without taking into account what was described from Francis (was it?) and my humble statement. One of the many consequences will be another wave of accusations which someone at the beginning of the thread mentioned, when he listed ways to spot a "tipper", like observing his craft whether its nose is down or not, although the game allows to do so (to a certain degree) without any aid.
On the subject of NegCons, those have never been considered cheating or disallowed.
Don't like them myself, but that's beside the point - it's an officially supported controller, so its use is fair game.
There have been shortcuts in all of the wipeout games through wipeout 3se, and Rob has not said these are illegal, but part of the game, maybe unwelcome, but part of the game. If they were illegal, I would remove every record since there are shortcuts on every track that give you a few seconds.
Respawning records are different, you jump off the track and respawn at the finish line, these are illegal. There are no tracks in all of the wipeouts up to wo3se that have this problem. then fusion has it (there are no records anyway), and pure and pulse don't have many shortcuts and not respawn at finish line problems, just the die in the middle of the race and the time counts problem which is not allowed here.
I will remove the pulse times this weekend, then put some up when I get back to it again.
At least a good news : old Wipeout scores are kept into the tables and safe.
Ever consider a career in politics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashback Jack
The man asked a straight question - I believe you can do him the courtesy of either answering it or telling him straight that you're not going to comment.
Frances Penfold quote: "Not all controllers are born equally, and they sure as hell are altered naturally by use. Does that make Medusa's times invalid? Should she sell her PSP to the highest bidder at WOZ because it's an unmod'd controller that behaves like an outlawed mod'd one? That's why simple controller mods are almost always allowed for time trials and speed runs-- it is impossible to level the playing field."
Ah, it's too late for me to profit, Frances, I cleaned the sticky button ages ago, and I've already sold it anyway. Not that anyone here would be looking for a PSP to make them go slower.:lol
The thing that has always been precious to me about WipEout is that although it is impossible to level the playing field, it is possible to keep the playing field fair. The trick with that is to use a playing field where all the participants follow the same rules - the WipeoutZone.
Lunar quote: "I`d also support a new and explicit "no custom firmware" and "no controller mods" rule. I think the times have changed and something new is needed, so it`s totally clear and it leaves no room for people to interpret the rules in their own way. Also, in the future, people may not have read this thread before they submit times and it would be easier not to have to have these arguments again!"
Hear, hear.:clap:clap I agree.
This is a small community, and although I've not been here that long, I can easily guess why that's so, and why there are so few records on the site. Everyone who stays with WipeoutZone is here because they truly love the WipEout genre - more than being number one, more than beating others' times, more than bragging all over the place about how great they are - they love WipEout more than they love themselves.
Nearly everyone who's replied in this thread is really fired up about it, and with good reason. Especially the top pilots, but others too, have spent a lot of time, a lot of their life, trying to be faster in Pure and Pulse.
I have to say it is sad to see so much tension here, so I have to give my advice to everybody - Love the game, and relax! It's not such a hardship to have set rules for everyone here, is it? It's better to know how all the pilots here on the site are racing, because then we can all respect one another evenly.
Besides, the only true way to know who is the fastest is to race one another live, which is possible with Pure and Pulse, and if people want to race their way, away from the record tables, than they can.
We will see better times ahead with HD, right?
*please, SL, no more of this nose-down crap in HD*
"our records are **** compared to other franchises like Mario Kart and F-zero"
Have you seen the wipeout 3 tables for ntsc, and specifically pal? There are many records on this game, probably because that was the game with the initial records tables. How can it be called **** when in fzero, you can skip the entire freaking track in many races, and get stupid lap times, not to mention having to do idiotic snake technique to get good times. At least in wipeout, if you stick to the track, the most difference would be about a 6 second difference with perfect races both ways. How can it be called **** next to mario kart, where cpu assist is present, making the multiplayer unplayable, not to mention the game is so freaking easy to learn how to play, my 6 year old son can compete.