Thanks, you've expressed exactly how I feel about the issue.
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Thanks, you've expressed exactly how I feel about the issue.
One of the most thrilling experiences in a Wipeout tournament has always been going in the last race of a tournament being second overall and HAVING to win that last race while the person in first MUST NOT get points, not even 1. So it was a matter of eliminating him while at the same time finishing first. This happens only so many times, for sure, but it's the "what could happen" kind of situations in a game paired with reactions and options available for the player to deal with those situations that make a good game. With the advent of respawns one major option in Wipeout's gameplay is missing.
@ Medusa, I was just giving examples of how people can go OH NO, when they hear something new without even trying it, and how they can be wrong. I wasnt getting into the specific of each (some folk like some changes, some dont, so be it) just pointing out that usually people hear 'new thing, thats different' and get closed towards the idea simply because it is different, it is a change, often people worry for no reason, because once they see the change, they realise its not actually a bad thing.
Of course there are some changes that are hit and miss and divide people, Barrel Rolls is one, some folk dislike them, some like them. Ultimately in that case who does the team listen to ? Fan A or Fan B ? The answer is simple: Neither. The team has to go with what it believes is right, and they know they wont ever please everyone, they just have to go with what they believe works best, and now and again the team disagree and then its down to the few to make the judgement call for what they believe is best for the game and that might mean going against what they personally want in some cases.
Because no matter how noble it might be to say, **** the masses, lets make a game for the hardcore fans, that philosophy will put you out of a job, and thats not even considering how divided the hardcore can be.
But on respawns in multiplayer...
As I said elsewhere, when people on the online team said they wanted respawn in, I was totally against it, far more than anyone has been here, far more swearing and stamping of feet, and you know, I hadnt even seen it in action or tried it.
And the first few races I was far from convinced that we needed it, but the more we played with it, the more I appreciated it.
So whilst it might seem like a bad thing now, I've no doubt it will actually turn out to be a good thing for some poeple who might be wary. Yes there will be some who cant accept it I guess they have to cross their fingers for an add-on making it optional, but certainly for launch given it was one or the other, I am confident the right decision was made. I guess in a few days people will get to try it for themselves, and get rabid again :D
And rapid, too, we hope. :)
I don't mean to be a wisecrack here, but in the case of Barrel Rolls the answer is easier to find than you might think:Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Berry
Does everyone hate BRs? NO. Ok, but would the people who like BRs actually care if BRs were gone? NO. Would that decision make the BR-haters happy? YES.
Here's your answer ;)
My core Wipeout experience began with Pure (aside from a brief stint with WO64), so I'd probably be among the complainers if barrel rolls were ever removed from the game. I need all my speed, man. :banzai
- F
Forgive my heresy, but I was born in 2097 and I'll still miss BR if they're removed. :P
aaaah but thats just your opinion, it is not actual fact :)Quote:
Originally Posted by eLhabib
You cannot take the views of a few of the hardcore (less than 80 votes on the barrel roll thread someone posted) and extrapolate it and make the assumption it is what everyone wants or that people who said they liked them wouldnt miss them
There are plenty of people involved with the game who really like the barrel roll feature and are against removing it, and plenty of people who play the game but dont necessarily post here who like it as a feature.
You assume the people who like them wouldnt care if they were gone, but you only assume that because that agrees with what you want :D
That said, personally, I wouldnt miss Barrel Rolls too much if they went (although it would feel odd playing pulse and pure tracks without) but I know the majority of the dev team would have argued against removing them from HD.
But that's because HD is pretty well attached to Pure and Pulse. How did we end up discussing barrel rolls again? XD
having "infinite lives" would certainly aid a lot of the veterans in achieving those Elimination-related trophies, no?
Well put, Col.
Online polls are mostly pointless because they consist of the vocal minority - the hardcore fans who don't count when developers are selling a game to the mass market.
The only way to really vote is buying or not buying.
Of course, you are right, Colin. I was being slightly idealistic there... ;)
Anyway, if there was an option to disable BRs for online races in HD, everyone would be happy I guess.
As to Barrel Rolls - I mainly use them to break the back of some of the nastier time trials to compensate for some lack of pilot skill. So removing them could turn some of the time-trial tracks into ultimate game breakers for me.
It is abundantly clear that this design doesn't meet with your expectations or previous experiences. This is less of a surprise if you take into account that in Eliminator mode (at least in Pulse, haven't tried in in Wip3Out 3 ***) single-player respawning happens without much of a penalty. In on-line multi-player this behaviour could be even more important for other non-technical reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by eLhabib
Who likes playing "musical chairs" ("Reise nach Jerusalem")? Those who always win. However the fact is that those who are "out" the quickest are actually the ones who need the most practice however they aren't going to get any quicker by "sitting on the bench" and eventually they will stop participating. So in fact this may be a good decision for keeping Wipeout HD more accessible to a larger potential audience/community where pilots of a broader skill range can "mingle" in the same race. Sure, it can be satisfying to casually cruise over the finish line in the first position after half of the roster has been "eliminated" - then again a skilled pilot may very well appreciate that a full roster on the track may make the race more interesting while less experienced pilots still have something to do (provided they have enough integrity to stick around in 8th place).
If you want to remove the respawn after elimination then maybe leaving the track should become reason for total elimination?
Granted Wipeout is a combat-racer. But at its core it is a primarily a racing game that uses combat to broaden the racing experience. That is why there is no single weapon that can deplete a craft's integrity in one single hit. The primary effect of receiving a hit is that you are slowed down. Mines and bombs are used to make passing you more difficult; Quake, Missiles, Rockets, Pulse and Cannon are used to create opportunities for passing those who are in front of you. The depletion of craft integrity requires decisions as to whether to absorb the current pickup (or even to choose a pickup instead of an accelerator pad) in order to avoid further slowdown by elimination. Most eliminations are dumb luck - you happened do deliver the eliminating blow. If you want to eliminate a certain pilot you have to deliver multiple hits - in order to do that you have to stay with that craft until it is eliminated. The target craft can prolong this process by seeking and absorbing pickups - in which case the net effect is that the target craft is slowed down. Multiple hits on the target craft will ultimately create the opportunity for the shooter craft to improve it's position - if you forgo this opportunity you are no longer playing a racing game ...
I'm not saying that you are right or wrong - but I can certainly see how "they" arrived at this particular design decision.
(*** My introduction to AG racing was through Quantum Redshift, then Pure, then Pulse - haven't had extensive exposure to Wipeout or Wipeout 3)
Excellent post. You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.
Very wise words, indeed. I absolutely agree. It's always a different view from the top ;)
Oh, you haven't met the new and improved Plasma Bolt yet :twisted not 100% kill, but damn close, let me tell you that!Quote:
Originally Posted by HydrogLox
If we can work for Studio Liverpool whilst being in North America, as HydrogLox currently is, can I apply? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Egg
@ Rob, damn its been so long since I saw you I cant detect if its sarcasm or not... when you say 'well put'
But you are right, at the end of the day the only votes that count to Sony are (to use a GCSE economics term) dollar votes.
Its rare for a game to have a large enough hardcore market to tailor itself for them, especially with rising dev costs etc hell you know how it works.
@ Elhabib... a Barrel Roll option you say, what an 'odd' thought...
That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont :D
@ Hydroglox, ... well put and far too detached and eloquent* to be someone from the team!
:P
* $10 word of the day ! Eat that Mr Foxx !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Berry
i think options please everyone and are hugely important to games and there success, i get that something should be crafted, but as a player and a buyer i appreciate been able to take a product and 'craft' it to my personal preferences. such as simple things like in an FPS, the option to invert one's controls. in wipeout the choice of in cockpit/out cock pit. the new HUD's you guys added for the fans! re-assigning a button to something more familiar/comfortable.
options imo never make me think a developer is unsure, they make me appreciate the choice and enjoy the game more!
Payers can learn to become a neusence for fun if they wanted... if they're not skilled, they could sit dead in the middle of the track and just cause people to hit into them, or drive reverse... get eliminated, respawn and continue... I don't want this neusence, as well as if they just choose a speed they obviously can't handle, then they're just in the way of slowing down a good race... the permanent eliminations weeds this kind of thing out.
If the players are to need practice, they are to get it in the game before going online!! If they can't handle speed, they are to go to a slower speed online!! Online wasn't built for learning, that's what the game was built for. Online was built for experienced players who are in the need for more competition!! Thus respawn should not exist for that, and the sense of acheivement of the eliminator...
BRs should not exist as they're simply unbelievable... replace it with a large intake that occurs somewhere around the craft that could not occur at the regular elevation of the craft... or bring back pit lanes and energy drain for speed... I never had a problem with that...
I should be so lucky ... (... I guess).Quote:
Originally Posted by Egg
However if that is also meant as a compliment I'll take it.
Compared to some of the design decisions I've seen in some legacy systems that one was crystal clear.
Though it is interesting to note that there is some kind of open wager at SL for the detection of covert SL WipeoutZone members.
Exactly. Wipeout is a fantasy/futuristic racer that creates it's own reality - however it needs to be consistent in its own ways. If you can accept that you magically appear back on the track after hurdling off of it then you should be able to accept "delayed replacement" after elimination. The original Wipeout design was single-player centric so there will be some aspects (Wipeout realities) have to give because they aren't optimal in the multi-player arena.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapier Racer
The Plasma Bolt can be deadly - however it is more like an area weapon to simultaneously deal damage to multiple craft in a cluster. If you try to use it as a point weapon against a single craft you have to aim and time it, taking concentration away from your racing. So in most cases it is simply wiser to absorb it unless you have a tempting cluster of competitors in front of you that is fairly easy to hit even if you shoot "from the hip".Quote:
Originally Posted by eLhabib
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Colin Berry
The options that you have described so far mainly deal with slight variations of the human "interface" to the engine. Those options take some effort but can be fairly easily accommodated. Other options that lie more deeply in the engine are far more difficult to accommodate. Allowing some options will blur the "vision" behind the product while others will require increased flexibility on account of the engine. While "flexibility" is often viewed as a positive aspect, it always increases complexity which increases opportunities for defects and testing effort which can ultimately kill a product. Having a crystal clear vision requiring less flexibility increases the likelihood of product success. I think that is what Colin is alluding to. Being download-able, Wipeout HD can always be changed as long as the cash keeps flowing, however too many "options" can ultimately limit the paths that Wipeout HD and it's DLC can take.Quote:
Originally Posted by emerald dragoon
That's why I have never indulged in any on-line gaming (so far). Because "playing with strangers" can be an uneven experience which is a waste of time. I'd guess the most successful on-line gaming sessions are between "friends". In order to meet these "friends" go to a a suitable on-line board like the WipeoutZone and behave and conduct "yourself" in a reasonable and responsible manner - you'll probably meet some people who are fun to race with. "Friends" may share a common interest but their level of skill can still vary - they all deserve to have fun in the same race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill
;)
I get that people don't want respawns, but think of it this way.
Wipeout HD has respawns, which means more newer owners of the game decide to stick around and get better, because they can continue to play online without spending a ton of time on the sideline.
Which means that the game has a larger online community.
Which means that Sony greenlights another DLC pack or maybe a whole new Wipeout game because it is making them money.
Which means we have a new Wipeout game coming out thanks to all those scrubs who think respawns are a necessary part of online gaming.
Seriously, there is a reason all the most successful online games stay successful. They give players rewards for developing skill, and make the game fun to play while that skill is developing. The whole idea of "this game is really hard, deal with it" no longer works. Ninja Gaiden 2 while loved by the hardcore, is not as successful as other action games, because it adopts this attitude. It's sales suffer big time.
Or just the option later... so all the "skilled" players have nothing to complain about... and it would be viewable in the lobby what respawn races were on and what were off...
You can't count flying off the circuit the same respawn as being eliminated... their was always a drone available to catch you throughout the entire series if not to respawn, which made realistic sense...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill
Isn't this one of the reasons for "Locked" (PW Protected) races? So that only the people "You" trust (Such as Zoners etc) get to race with you? It's a part of Pulse online, so i'm assuming it'll be in HD as well, and it's a good option. :)
Oh really?? That's a lot better... :) Didn't know about that...
There's no Password protection, but you can assign up to 7 friend slots.
Ninja Gaiden 2 failed due to overpowered weaponry and a horrible camera, NOT because it's unforgivingly hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubix42
To me it depends if we're talking of a new IP or of a situation like wipeout, a series that exists from lots of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Berry
In the first scenario, i can think that the developer has to give a clear "direction" to the game. Then giving lots of options it could be a wrong idea.
In the "wipeout scenario", if you go for the "not giving options" way, you have to choose what kind of customer you're going after. The diehards ? The guys who came aboard with the psp's wipeouts ? The casuals ?
I think it's easy to see that if you don't give options, you're going to piss off someone.
So, maybe in our situation, it would be wiser to give the change to let the customer choose what kind of experience wants from Wipeout HD.
There you go with that "realistic" word again. :) Wipeout is fantasy racer with a futuristic look and feel - it has no obligation to be "realistic". Sensible within it's own framework maybe ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill
So you have no trouble in accepting that while you speed down the track that there is a drone around that can hurdle you back onto track without much delay? Where are these drones? Are there hundreds of drones lining the sides of the track? Is there one single drone that services all the craft? Probably not. Lets assume that each craft has its own drone. Now you are assuming that it takes your utmost skill to control a craft that is flying down the track with blinding speed, yet your support drone has no trouble keeping up with you. Maybe it is flying above you so it isn't sensitive to the difficulties of the track. So why can't there be another support drone that carries another hull which is capable catching your ejected cockpit module which it then attaches to the new hull in a matter of seconds? Once that support drone is expended it is relieved by another loaded drone of the same type. Problem rationalized - time to get back to the game ...
Oddly enough nobody seems to have suggested removing eliminations in multi-player. You could increase the penalty of having your craft integrity reduced to 0% be coming to a dead stop. However that would mean no explosions and more importantly being stuck at low integrity (and low speed if you keep hitting the wall) which could be an annoying experience.
Some options are no big deal and if they make some people happy, then great. Many options are more hassle than they are worth. All your options have to interact in a well defined manner. Often simply choosing one over others will lead to a product that is more stable (and that is available earlier). If that means that you lose 2 out of 10 sales then so be it - once the cash of the sales comes in you can always reassess whether it is worth going after the missed sales - as long as you don't mess with the experience of your customers who have already purchased the product (and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Furthermore you have to make allowances for the differences in the single-player and multi-player mode. In the original single-player Wipeout You are the center of the universe - so it is all about entertaining you. When you get eliminated you shouldn't be forced sit out the remainder of race just so that the AI craft can find their positions in the race - you know that you didn't finish - time to start over and try again immediately. And when an AI craft is eliminated you get the bonus reward of having one less headache to deal with - which increases your satisfaction and enjoyment.
In multi-player the stakes change - you are no longer the center of the universe - all human players want to be equally entertained - otherwise they will go elsewhere. Just like you didn't want to wait for the AI craft to finish "their" race, many human players don't want wait (again and again) for the more skilled players to finish their race either - they too are in this game for racing. So the most sensible solution is to get them back into the race after experiencing a suitable (but not devastating) delay to reprimand them for their sloppiness. Wipeout doesn't have to be "realistic" - it is supposed to be entertaining. "Realistic" races are primarily audience oriented - that is why racing sponsors finance the teams and events because they want their brand to be seen and to be associated with the winning team. Racing simulations simulate this environment. Wipeout always has been player oriented - so decisions should always be guided by which outcome will please the most (not all) players.
It basically comes down to "choose your options wisely".
A: I hate barrel rolls!
Z: OK, lets take out barrel rolls.
B: Slow down, barrel rolls are a great "desperate move" feature. It's about taking the risk of reduced craft integrity and reduced guidance stability to gain some precious speed when you desperately need a turbo pickup but you can't find one!
Z: OK, lets put in a "no barrel rolls " option.
Y: Wait a minute, we already specified the medal targets for the track time trials - and some of the gold medal targets require that you use barrel rolls!
Z: Well, maybe make the option available only for multi-player.
A: Didn't you hear? "I hate barrel rolls!" I don't want to be forced to use them - even in single player.
Z: Well, can we allow extra time so that you can get the medals without barrel rolls?
Y: Sure. However, that means that the tracks with barrel roll opportunities will be way too easy for the barrel rolling crowd - the play testers will complain that barrel rolls make those time trials pointless.
Z: I guess we better drop barrel rolls.
B: But now you are making the game harder for the neophyte player. Barrel rolls are a great way to get ahead of AI craft because they don't seem to use them. Some people will lose interest way too quickly without barrel rolls!
Z: So what I'm hearing is that some people hate barrel rolls while others "just adore them". So a configurable option would keep everybody happy right?
A: Yep.
B: Sure.
Y: What about the time trials?
Z: Looks like we now need two sets of medal targets for time trials. "barrel roll" targets and "no barrel roll" targets.
Y: Well, I guess you better significantly increase the play testing allocation for the verification of the time trial targets as there are now twice as many to verify.
Z: "They" are not going to like this, unless we can find something else we can drop ... good thing we haven't announced a release date yet.
If i remember well Wipeout Pure sold 1 million copies. If i'm right it would be interesting to know what are the numbers SCEE is expecting from HD.Quote:
(and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).
But apart from that, if i understand well what i quoted, you're saying SCE has no interest at all in all the wipeout fans. All your points in your response sound like this " when we have to choose if we want to please someone who has never bought a wipeout, ora someone who bought many, we go for the first option".
I understand that if you want to dramatically extend your userbase, than it's the way to go.
But understand that being a long time wipeout player, i'm pissed of by this.
At least i'm a Metal Gear nut too, Kojima at least knows the meaning of "fan service".
You realize that Wipeout's hardcore fanbase is probably in the thousands, whereas Metal Gear's fanbase is in the millions right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Kojima can afford to "listen" to his fanbase because they are a huge percentage of the people that will be guaranteed to buy the game again.
SL Cannot afford such a liberty with such a small fanbase, it is not economically viable for them. When you run your own business, you will understand. They don't pull decisions like this out of their ass, it comes from experience, and more importantly, failure.
-----------
Yeah... I'm back from hibernation :P
Dude! Where the heck have you been?Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarensmps
- F
Did you read my post ? Speaking of businness we're saying the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarensmps
I've said that i'm pissed off not by their decisions from a businness point of view, but from MY point of view, being a long time fan.
Speaking of userbase, from what i know Wipeout Pure sold a million, link:
http://www.edge-online.com/features/...ibution-future
"Wipeout Pure has been a tremendous success in many respects. The title has now sold over 1 Million units on UMD. But just as impressive, it has generated over 500,000 downloaded files, in the form of tracks, ships, skins etc."
Unluckily, i've found no numbers about old wipeouts.
I did read your post, I also understand your disappointment, however, the reality of things is that a small hardcore fanbase is not enough to justify these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Also, sales =/= hardcore fanbase.
How many of those people still play Wipeout? How many of those people traded in those games for something else? How many of those played it a couple of times and then let their UMD sit there and collect dust afterwards?
The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.
but this is true for ALL games, not only for wipeout pure. And a million is not a huge success, but it's far from failure. it's a good userbase as i see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarensmps
As i said i have numbers only for pure and nothing else. But there must be some reason if the wipeout brand is going on no ? It's no mario, of course, but it's something that started more than ten years ago.Quote:
The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.
There must be a reason no ?
Yes Wipeout Pure sold over 1million
That doesnt mean the core fanbase is 1million though
I wish it was :D
I'm not at liberty to give out the sales figures for the other Wipeout titles (if people dig on the net they can get ball park I suspect) but lets just say Pure was a HUGE success compared to any other in the series in terms of numbers sold.
The previous biggest seller for the series incidentally was Fusion (unless you count 3 and SE as one thing in which case it runs it close / possibly tips it)
Oh and Metal Gear ?
Kojima should just go make movies.. :)
(resists uber flame comment)
From what I read about Metal Gear Solid 4, yeah, probably so.
[Note: this is purely speculative opinion on my part, based upon nO experience of the game itself, and should hence be regarded as mere ignorant verbal ejection.]
[That is all. Thank you for reading.] :g
What did you hear bout mgs4, Lance?
Too much FMV at times when there should have been gameplay.
That may be true however there are currently way more PSPs out there than there are PS3s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Now a good number of PS3 owners will own a PSP but not all of them like Wipeout. I suspect that the PS3 owning (or buying) Wipeout enthusiast customer base is too small to make Wipeout HD successful by simply appealing to the fans.
Have a look at Wikipedia: List of best-selling video games
Pure is on the list but Pulse isn't. Meanwhile there are three different "Monster Hunter" titles on that list. It is difficult to find Pulse sales figures so it is unclear if Pure generated a lot of follow-up purchases.
Now look at the PS3 list. "Ratchet and Clank: Tools of Destruction" sold 1 Million units over the last year. But four of its PS2 predecessors sold 2-3 million units each.
Now Wipeout HD has a distinct price advantage but it is also limited to the PSN customer base. So for Wipeout HDs sake I hope that it's customer base isn't limited to satisfied Pure owners who want more of the same. Wipeout HD has to appeal to PS3 owners in general.
I can certainly empathize. However it is often necessary to make game-play alterations in an attempt to appeal to a larger audience in order to perpetuate the franchise even if it alienates a few people. Of course these changes can backfire in a big way. That's what makes some of these decisions so difficult for the creators and designers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
Curly Monsters had a go at it with Quantum Redshift (2002) on the XBox. It was a fun AG racing game but it didn't find much of an audience so the second one with on-line play was never realized. During the PS2 reign there was only one Wipeout (2002) title (which is viewed as the black sheep of the series by many). Meanwhile the original Playstation had three successful Wipeout titles. Pure (2005) on the PSP demonstrated the platform's pixel-pushing power (as compared to the other hand-held) however Pulse (2007) doesn't seem to have duplicated Pure's sales. Is the (PS3) console market ready for Wipeout? I hope so but only time will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon
I still think that respawning should have an on and off option in later installments, as well as the camera's movement effect...
I think that at long last we may have found a WipeoutZone member who is even more verbally voluminous than I am. :)
In a very textual way.
While I agree with many points you make HydrogLox, I must say, the fact that Ratchet and Clank sold 1 million on the PS3 is more significant that the sales numbers of the franchise on the PS2.
Why you ask? Because the install base of people who own the PS3 is much smaller than the PS2. So to see that much penetration of the installed market through the game is a great success.
I would imagine Wipeout HD will see similar success. If only because the majority of PS3 owners right now are die hard sony fans that have their favorite franchises.