How can I avoid/reduce HDTV lag?

[AG-wolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBolS3c1-Nk&fmt=18

I tried to record a video that showed the delayed reaction on screen versus the instant I press the button on the controller. For both consoles, 360 and PS3, I was using the standard component cables and running at 1080p (the TV's alleged native resolution).

This has been ANNOYING THE F*** OUT OF ME, and it happens almost on EVERY HDTV I seem to encounter. My buddy's 50 inch Samsung, a panasonic I used at one point, another friend's older 52" Plasma (or LDP) Sony Wega 720p; though on the Sony, if I put the signal into 720p (native resolution) there was almost no lag. Mind you, this is NOT the 4ms "response time" that my TV has listed in its specifications, the 4ms would barely be noticeable at all.

I know if you're using a non-native resolution, the chip inside the TV needs to process the image a little bit, which will introduce lag... but Ive tried EVERY resolution possible with Composite, S-Vid, Component, and HDMI and nothing has gotten rid of the lag. I've turned off as many image processing options as I could on the TV (noise reduction, edge sharpening, automatic contrast, etc etc) and still nothing.

I had a TINY ray of hope when I used my 360's VGA cable just for the hell of it, and for some reason the lag is reduced but still just slightly noticeable- doesn't affect gameplay that much though.

With the PS3, it SEEMS like the HDMI cable doesn't have much lag when navigating menus and stuff, and WOHD plays almost the same as my old CRT, but you can plainly see with Sonic 2 (Sonic MegaCollection Plus version) it can have lag just as bad.

I found one forum online that seems to be devoted to my specific model:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-1007540-p-44.html
But i cant sit and weed through 80+ pages of replies

Anyone have any pointers for HDTV settings?

[mdhay]

Try resetting your settings on either console.(Don't Restore)

[Darkdrium777]

Is your TV FullHD 1080p certified? If it isn't, it will take the 1080p signal and downscale it to 720p (Video processing) thus creating a longer 'lag' time, I guess...

[AG-wolf]

been trying to figure that out. I'm pretty certain its 1080p certified, or whatever.. 1080p is noticeably better than when I do 720p, so I know it's not scaling it down

[ProblemSolver]

There is currently no satisfying solution for HDTVs utilizing LCD displays.
They all lag like hell, because they aren't really built for fast paced gaming.

The same situation holds true for TFT displays having an PVA or an IPS
panel. Despite these panels have a very high quality they lag like hell, too.
The input-lag for these panel are in the range of 30 - 60ms which amounts
to approx. 2 - 4 frames at 60Hz. And that's already too much! The one and
only panel type which comes close to a zero input-lag (like a CRT has) is
simply an old-school TN panel. These panels don't have the same quality (in
viewing angle, contrast, bits per plane, and brightness distribution) like an
PVA or IPS panel has, but they usually have an input-lag less than 15ms.
Some TN panels don't even have any measurable input-lag at all.

So if your are really into fast racing games or even fast paced shooters, then
the best solution is to buy an 24" (or 22") TFT with a TN panel inside utilizing
a 1:1 pixel-mapping. Hence, in my mind, the best setup consists of a large
HDTV for movies, general games etc. and a low input-lag 24" TN panel for
everything that is really fast paced. I know, this sux, but lets face it; HDTVs
are not built for hardcore gamers!

If you look closely you will recognize that there is a growing demand for low
input-lag TFT displays. BenQ tries to address that problem since about a year.
Their new TN panels have a rather less input-lag by retaining a good display
quality, as there are; the BenQ E2400HD (input-lag; avg. 7ms, max. 16ms)
and the BenQ E2200HD. The E2200HD is a 22" with a real 16:9 display, it
maps a FullHD (1080p) signal, 1:1, over the entire screen. Anyways, don't
expect a bombastik cinematic feeling. ;)

Remember, there is no best solution that covers all the issues. A display with
a very low input-lag, a big screen size, and a superior display does not exists.

[lunar]

I read somewhere on the net that if you play an HD game on an HDTV you don`t get any lag, but you get lag if you play SD games, because of upscaling, as AG Wolf says. For instance, Wipeout HD will not lag on a 1080P TV, but WipEout 1 will have lag. Is that right? I`m considering an HD upgrade, but if it makes the old Wipeouts difficult to play I don`t see the point for just getting some extra shine on HD.

[Darkdrium777]

Sharp Aquos LC32D64U, I don't have any of the problems AG describes, if they exist I am unaware of them and they don't cause me any problems.
IMHO it's also a very good TV for gaming: full compatibility for resolutions, you can plug your PC with HDMI to DVI (DVI on graphics card, HDMI on TV, set computer to 1080p), short response time (4ms), very acceptable image quality and wide variety of inputs.

[klax75]

I have a older Sharp Aquos HD LCD, and I love it. I've always liked the picture it has no LCD ghosting at all. I've never experience any kind of lag from the PS3, or from the Computer. I have DVI to switch it on screen as a second computer display. Also have my cable box hooked up in HDMI. I just wish my TV for my room was bigger. It's only 27", may upgrade to a new bigger model one day.

[eLhabib]

Remember, there is no best solution that covers all the issues. A display with
a very low input-lag, a big screen size, and a superior display does not exists.

WRONG. I presented myself with a Sony 46Z4500 (http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t46-z-series/kdl-46z4500) for christmas, and it has ABSOLUTELY NO LAG. There even is a special 'Game Mode' that cuts it down to an absolute zero (tested with the calibration option in guitar hero - 0ms), but even if you have it running on Movie Mode (including Motionflow 200Hz for a full 1080p motion resolution - something most LCDs, and even most plasmas can't do), the lag is still at impossible-to-notice 8ms.

Granted, the Z4500 is the second most expensive Sony model, but my mate has a W4000, which is over a year old by now, and considerably cheaper (less than half), and he has ZERO LAG as well.

In terms of picture quality, most new Sony LCDs are second to none - wonderful blacks, every setting customisable, great SDTV upscaling, and no clouding whatsoever (at least on my Z4500 - the W4000 has some slight clouding).

If you wanna know performance details, here are a very competent reviews on both the Z4500 (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl40z4500-20081124136.htm) and the W4500 (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl40w4500-20081116135.htm) (newer and better version of the W4000) - I did a lot of research before buying a TV, and this site helped me a lot with my decision.

[Mad-Ice]

And what about component input? Because I have a Samsung 32" series 5 model and when I play Wipeout HD connected with HDMI there is no lag but if I play Pulse on PSP to TV with component there is a lot of lag! Very frustrating, you can see it on my youtube vids in the Dutch WOZ meetings.

[eLhabib]

Haven't tried component, but I wouldn't see why there should be more lag... :?

And I also learned during my research that most Samsung TVs tend to have rather big input lag issues (60-80ms!!!).

[AG-wolf]

Appreciate the input, guys... I returned the Samsung and got a Sony Bravia 40V4100.. the Samsung's picture was worlds better, but this TV has a game mode and considerably better input response time. It still lags just a tiny bit compared to a CRT, but not as drastically as the Samsung I had before. I still get worse lag on the 360 unless I use VGA for some reason, but whatever, not a big problem since I do have a VGA cable afterall :P

PS3:
HDMI, Component, any resolution - all the same response speed, very tiny lag
S-Vid, Composite - slightly more lag (obviously)

PS3 when playing PS1/PS2 games
Any conection - worse lag than S-vid.

360:
HDMI, Component, any resolution - more lag than PS3
VGA any resolution - apx same lag as PS3 HDMI/component, maybe less
S-Vid, Composite - again slightly more lag


Here's the kicker:

N64:
S-Video - ... no lag o_O

Saturn:
S-Video - slight lag


I dont have the time or attention span to test anything else today, plus I have to get ready for work, but suffice to say WOHD is playable. The screen itself has a bit of ghosting/image trailing because the LCD element doesn't update in time when it transitions out of full-black, but that doesn't affect gameplay response time. I think the store will kill me if I try to return this TV too, so I might as well pay it off and keep it for a while.

[Frances_Penfold]

I am considering getting an HDTV and wanted to thank folks for contributing to this thread-- very helpful.

Also, for what it's worth-- I have an LG 480p 19" TV and as near as I can tell, there is no obvious lag when running WOHD or Wipeout Pure/Pulse (via the official TV line out on the PSP slim model hardware). So there definitely *are* TV options out there that work. Too bad this one involves such a God damned small screen ;)

[AG-wolf]

Frances, I checked out an LG before I decided on the Sony; I could get a bigger screen for less money, and the lag was not an issue, but the picture was BALLS- horrible quality.

Your best bet may be the Sony Bravia series, Sharp Aquous, and Toshiba Regza or something like that? Panasonic is good too. I still say drag your PS3 into a store and just test any TV that catches your eye.

Also, since most electronics stores have a WALL of TVs which are all displaying the same video feed, kinda let your eyes blur a little bit (dont focus on any one single tv), and try to see which ones change scenes first before the swarm of others... chances are, those are the ones you wanna test.

[ProblemSolver]

WRONG. I presented myself with a Sony 46Z4500 (http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t46-z-series/kdl-46z4500) for christmas,

The Z4500 is rather new and quite impressive.



and it has ABSOLUTELY NO LAG. There even is a special 'Game Mode' that cuts it down to an absolute zero (tested with the calibration option in guitar hero - 0ms), ...

Granted, the Z4500 is the second most expensive Sony model, but my mate has a W4000, which is over a year old by now, and considerably cheaper (less than half), and he has ZERO LAG as well.

Sounds interesting, if true. About the calibration; Is that Guitar Hero
thing an objective test?! Or is it an subjective one were you have to say;
"Yeah it's in sync now."? I wouldn't trust a game, anyways. Can you do
a real objective test using a stopwatch (http://www.flatpanels.dk/monitortest_inputlag_dk.php) and CRT as a reference? That
would be awesome, really! Here is a link on how you can do it. (http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/ourtest)

[eLhabib]

The lag test in Guitar hero is pretty sophisticated. It consists of two steps:

1st) Audio lag calibration. Asks you to strum the guitar in synch with 8 to 10 klicks coming from the game.

2nd) Video lag calibration. Asks you do strum the guitar in synch with 8 to 10 notes passing through a circle (no sound).

It's very accurate in that I even tested out the different modes on my TV. With Game Mode enabled, I always got to 0ms - which got me suspicious of how accurate this actually is. So I disabled Game Mode and turned on Motionflow (Low), then tested 3 times. The Video lag was always 6ms (no audio lag, running directly to my 5.1 via optical). Then I tried Motionflow on medium, again 3 times, lag was always 8ms. Then Motionflow max, again 3 times -> lag always 8ms again. So I guess it's really very accurate.

[ProblemSolver]

I wonder how precise the results really are. But anyways, your results are
within the range of 0-10ms and that is rather impressive for an LCD.

It's not a trick, it's a Sony! Hm? :)

[Darkdrium777]

LCDs shouldn't have more than 10ms of lag anyways, or they wouldn't be very competitive nowadays. I guess it depends on the brand you buy, if you get Sharp, Sony or other good brands, you will get a TV with lag less than 10ms most of the times. However if you go cheap like LG or Insignia, well that will obviously be different.
Haven't done tests at all on my Sharp, but I can play WipEout Pulse perfectly well on it, even better than on PSP (Bigger screen). There's absolutely no lag whatsoever, or it is very minimal. I had heard about lag problems connecting through components, problems that could sometimes make the game unplayable because of the severe lag. Well Sharp doesn't have this problem, so get one if you can ;)

[Mad-Ice]

I tested some more with Pulse and PSP to TV with component, but now I used the 'game mode' on my TV and man what a difference. I now can play Pulse on my 32" Samsung Full HD 1080p with no lag. I am one happy man now! I just didn't use this 'game mode' before. Stupid me :brickwall

On a side note: wouldn't it be off the chart to record races of our European Wipeout Convention in Germany. I wonder what happens if you edit the recorded sessions of 5 screens in division 1 and use the best bits of all races in one nicely edited vid. One can dream or will it become true?

[JABBERJAW]

I have an 24" lg lcd with supposedly 3ms lag, and it works fantastic, no problems that I can see. I'll have to check if this has game mode or not. I also have my 30" crt which is nice as well, but kinda want to save it for movies (longer tv life). The picture is as good as my older 24" gateway

[TreAtzTMA]

I have a 2 year old Panasonic Viera Plasma (1080i) hooked up with HDMI cable. Haven't noticed any lag. However, I use an optical cable from the TV to my stereo and there is audio lag, so when I play quick twitch games like WOHD I just use the TV audio.

Haven't noticed any PS2/PS1 lag on my PS3.

[Soccermom]

Just wanted to add my input to the discussion.

I have an 40 inch samsung screen (LE40F86) and I am also suffering from quite a lot of input lag. It is possible to reduce the lag to 35-40ms, if I turn on game mode and turn off all picture processing (as assessed by my audio sync delay on my Onkyo875 - not a true time watch test, I know).

With regard to WO, the input is very noticeable especially when doing barrel rolls. When I hook up my 22 inch computer display with 2ms lag, the game feels a lot more responsive (BRs, side shifting and smooth cornering are a lot easier).
I am not willing to sacrifice the full HD experience so I have had to learn to live with the delay. However, if I had to buy a new TV today, input lag would be very high up on the priority list (I did not play WO when I bought the TV :P)

Basically, I would urge all WO addicts to really check the specs on input lag on a new LCD purchase. It is very rarely advertised and often not mentioned in tests, so check/ask on sites like AVSforum (excellent forum btw.) before you spend your hard-earned money.

A final comment on minimum input lag. It is not possible to reduce input lag to an absolute 0. A LCD screen always buffers one full frame before displaying, so the minimum absolute 0 value for a game running in 60 FPS will be 1/60 of a second. Thus, my HDTV has a total input lag of 35-40 ms (picture processing lag) + 16.6ms.

EDIT: If you are experiencing bad input lag. The first thing to try is to turn off all special picture processing from the TV's menu (usually you would want to do that anyway) and make sure the PS3 is outputting the signal at the screens native resolution. Smooting, DNLe etc. taxes the processing a lot and on most TVs (except very very highend products), the built in scaler does not do a good job.
I have a dedicated scaler (REON chip) in my Onkyo and with that enabled, WO becomes almost unplayable (albeit very good looking ;))


I have a 2 year old Panasonic Viera Plasma (1080i) hooked up with HDMI cable. Haven't noticed any lag. However, I use an optical cable from the TV to my stereo and there is audio lag, so when I play quick twitch games like WOHD I just use the TV audio.

"the audio lag" you are decribing is input lag. Relaying sound has virtually no delay and hence it arrives before the picture does. Your TV is compensating for the lag when your are channeling your audio through that.

[AG-wolf]

after all the hassle with getting a TV that doesn't have terrible lag; guess what I was greeted with this morning when I woke up:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2030/damnitey0.jpg

already tried tapping/massaging/ etc, the screen-flashing program, etc. damnit. That's gonna drive me nuts now. and I can't exchange the TV because the store I bought it at is going out of business. I hope it fixes itself.

[Lance]

~snip~And I also learned during my research that most Samsung TVs tend to have rather big input lag issues (60-80ms!!!).

NOW you tell me. :D

[eLhabib]

1) that only concerns the bigger models, Lance, you should be fine! (I hope... :paperbag)
and 2) I only learned about the lag issues with Samsung a couple of weeks ago when deciding what to get myself! Sorry!

Anyway, I also have a 24 inch Samsung (pc monitor), and my cousin has a 32 inch Samsung TV, and both suffer from no noticeable lag.

[Soccermom]

I have to agree with eLhabib. Don't worry about input lag unless you are being bothered by it on your TV or if you have to purchase a new LCD.
All the measurements in the world are not gonna affect how the game feels. If it feels right ... be happy and bomb the slower people on the track :P

[rushin]

i think i must be odd, have never noticed any input lag. Got a sony 40" something or other about a year ago.

quick solution though - replicate my playing conditions by being a little drunk/stoned and you'll never need to worry ;)

[Lance]

Great suggestion, rushin!

[Has a look about.] Damn! I'm outta whiskey.


Again! :g

[lunar]

Whatever the "risks" of getting lag on an HDTV, the advantages of playing Wipeout HD on an HD set far outweigh them, imo. I played it in high definition for the first time at someone`s house. Before I`d only played it at PAL 50HZ and I have to say the game is comparatively smoother, and easier to play in HD. I think you can compare it to playing other games with an increased frame rate: it may not be faster, but it`s easier to play if you are at all sensitive to lag and framerate issues which many people are. Certain corner sections could be taken faster in HD, probably because I seemed to have tighter control.

I did notice a small amount of input lag, I think, but it was a cheapo Goodmans TV set and I soon adjusted to the lag if it existed at all. I also saw some tearing on Sol2 in zone which SD nicely mushes out, and any drop in framerate was very noticeable in HD, but overall it makes flying better and all SD users should upgrade, me included!! When I went back to SD on my home TV it was a sad moment. I will upgrade one day, but not the Goodmans route for sure, as there was also some nasty ghosting and strange effects on this TV. The Ubermall Panda had a strange "double image" effect on every lap with it.

The game did look stunning, but overall I thought the biggest distinction between PAL and High Definition was the smoothness.

[Lance]

Regular tv progs in HiDef look pretty damn' stunning, too. The pursuit of great gaming by getting a new tv will produce a good result all round. Progs in 1080i will be converted by a good tv into 1080p. At least 5 or 6 of the local tv stations here broadcast in 1080i on their primary channel, although the sub-channels are 480i.