The AI weapon balancing of Pure has got to be the worst.....

[Hacker X]

of ALL the Wipeout's yet. I'm sorry man, while PURE is the best Wipeout so far, someone up in the developers office needs to go back to game balancing 101. I am sitting here frustrated beyond belief trying to tackle all the tracks on Phantom class and I'm almost ready to throw this PSP against the wall cause this game is pissiing me off to no end. I'm sure you guys playing the game know what I'm talking about, but let me give an example anyway. :?

- I'm in 1st place, AI shoots a shockwave, my craft stops almost dead in its tracks, I SLOWLY accelerate back up to speed but not before getting passed by at LEAST 5 ships

- I gain speed in 6th place, coming up onto the 5th place opponent, I get a shockwave and shoot it, AI opponents MAYBE slow down like I did, but whether they do or not it doesn't matter cause even if I pass them they are still right on my tail within seconds.

- Then, I pull up to 2nd or 3rd place approaching the lead again, but not before the AI craft in front of me drop "BOMB", "MINES", and then from behind "ROCKETS" totally stopping my ship and not only knocking me WAAAAAAY back to 8th, but crippling my ship to the point of critical. :evil:



It's this scenario on EVERY DAMN TRACK once you get up to Flash class and beyond and just gets worse and worse as you approach Phantom.

I'll admit, I LOVE my Wipeout games to be difficult, but I don't like them to be so difficult that I can only win tracks by luck of not getting hit by enemy craft weapons by the roll of the dice. Penalties of losing ground in a race should be due to failure of piloting, with occasional hits from enemy AI weapons, not CONSTANT hits from enemy AI to the point that it makes the game almost unplayable, and beyond frustating. :x

Besides that, I still love this game. Been a Wipeout veteran since PSX, but they should have used common sense when testing this game, and knew that the AI was TOO aggressive with the weapons in the higher classes. But truth-be-told, I still will endure the punishment, cause I love this game ot no end. :P

/end rant

[Space Cowboy]

Alot of us have been making this point for a while now. The game is definitely let down by these issues. I have stopped playing the regular single races and tourny's because of this. I now only play TT and free play mode. I have no desire to work through a tourny only to be knocked out by a single weapon and lose the whole thing. This is especially infuriating on the longer tournaments where you have to spend a great deal of time and effort to complete them.
Unfortunately this is not something that can be remedied by patching as the Pure game does not supprt a patching process.
I only hope that the Euro version is tweaked so that its actually enjoyable to play.
Like I've been saying for months now, playing pure is too much like hard work, and not enough like fun. :(

If I want to play single races or tourny's I just put the amazing WO3 in my epsxe emu and enjoy to my hearts content :)

[Drakkenmensch]

You guys may be interested in looking up internet inline play then - yes, it can be done with just a simple wireless adapter on your PC, and when configured correctly, it's very stable.

link to the thread on this: http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2266

Human oppponents are FAR more tricky than the AI could ever though - be warned that you may start regretting the deadly if somewhat predictable computer tactics once you get down to it ;)

[Sumimasen]

For the most part I can live with W'O"P's aggressiveness, but for two things, which for me, spoil the game.

1. Citta Nuova

2. Disruption Bolt

Citta Nuova is a lovely track, but it's hellishly hard to challenge AI ships on Rapier and Phantom. If I could have made changes, I would keep the track, but make the AI struggle a bit more to make it fairer.

As for the disruption bolt, I'd scrap it altogether, as this is such a race breaker, it just leads to gross frustration. Many a time have I been leading, or challenging for the lead in a race, when I get hit by this and - WAHEY!!! - I steer straight into a wall!!! Back to 8th I go...

I have found also, that the AI seems to be very... how can I put it - erratic. I can get gold on every track at rapier in single race (except for Citta Nuova) and feel confident that I could do it virtually every time. Race a tourney though, and the AI seems to take an exception to me getting the lead in points, so then goes all out to eliminate me to prevent such a victory.

I was on course for gold in Rapier Ascension, when in the last race at Sol 2, I got hit by first a Plasma (drops from first to third) then a bomb (falls off track, uses stored missile to claw back some shield), then the invisble wusswagon plonks me straight into another bomb (falls off track again). Finally 8th place guy hits me with a second plasma, and it's curtains. Dropped from Gold to Bronze overall...

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

I too have decided that now I've got Phantom open, I'm going to play multiplayer/TT/Freerun and not chase after the high end golds anymore. I'd like to keep a little bit of my sanity!!! :oops:

[Egg]

Maybe Colin should have made the disruption bolt a Multi-Player feature only.

It's annoying in single-player, but hilarious to hear howls of frustration from other Wi-Fi players when their controls switch round :twisted:

It's the kind of thing which could make or break a friendship :)

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I can see how that would be funny Egg! Although even in a multiplayer scenario I do think that the Dispruption Bolt should only have one effect (if it is the reversal of controls) and have a clear countdown to when it cuts off. And, yeah, I don't think it should be in single palyer - although I do like the warpy vision effect.

[Sumimasen]

I think that the Disruption Bolt is ok in multiplayer, although the random effect thing is still a bit frustrating. At least in MP there's no gold medal at stake - just pride! :oops:

IIRC, and I may be wrong here, but in W'O" 1, wasn't there the mystery weapon that reversed opponents controls, and it was only available in Link Play? :?

I seem to remember that 'fracturing' a few friendships, back in the day! :P

EDIT: D'oh! Got in before me with that one, Mr. Thang! :oops:

[aesop]

then the invisble wusswagon plonks me straight into another bomb...
Ok. So for my piece of mind, which craft is the wusswagon?

[Drakkenmensch]

It's the craft that picks you up from off the track and sets you back on it after you fall off.

It used to be visible in Wipeout games before Pure, now it's just hinted to be there and looks almost like teleportation back on the track.

[Hacker X]

Good responses guys. I agree with what you guys said about Citta Nuova. I FINALLY got gold on Rapier after developing 2 bleeding ulcers and a weeks worth of a state of depression. :lol:

I'm hoping they tweakt he Euro version's AI myself. I usually don't import, but for Wipeout I'll do anything. :wink:

[Sven]

IIRC, and I may be wrong here, but in W'O" 1, wasn't there the mystery weapon that reversed opponents controls, and it was only available in Link Play? :? There were two link-play exclusive weapons in Wipeout 1. One was the control reversal, and the other was some mystery weapon that would make you "laugh like an idiot for days." I always wondered what that mystery weapon was. I don't remember what it was called though. I suspect it may have been a quake, but can anyone tell me for sure?

I wouldn't mind the disruptor so much if it weren't for the acursed control-reversal effect. I can deal with the other effects (the zoom in/out warping one is kind of fun), but getting hit with the reversal in the middle of a turn just sucks, to say the least.

I can't say I've had a whole lot of trouble with the AI's aggresiveness. It's just part of the game to me, and it makes it challenging. Just be glad the plasma bolt isn't still an instant kill 8O

[Sumimasen]

Actually, Invisibility seems to ring a bell for the secret one. Of course, the reversal was the OTHER link only weapon.

*braces for impact and heat from imminent flaming...*

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

wasent this a topic a few months back? :o

but anyway i will take the same stand with renewed conviction>

It is a matter of luck and sometimes the fact that the ai got lucky is what makes the game just hard enugh.

while people say it's too hard they just need to practice.

[Space Cowboy]

while people say it's too hard they just need to practice.

Mate dont even go there. I've had Pure since its release, I've been a Wiper for a decade. I dont need to be told about practice.
The fact is plain and simply obvious that Pure's balancing is off.
Dont mean to be sharp, but as a seasoned Wiper who is all too familiar with perservering I hate it when people put a games shortcomings down to 'lack of practice'.
All the practice in the world would not make Fusions handling any better, so why would it make the case for Pure's weapon balancing. :D

[Dogg Thang]

100% agreed, Space Cowboy.

[Sumimasen]

Having said that, I think that we would all agree that it's still a bloody awesome game though, right? :D

If the W'O" series is going to get revitalised on a home system, then we couldn't have asked for a better template - just with some little tweaks.

On the subject of practice, the amount of hours I have put into all the W'O" games combined is into the hundreds - and I deffo think that sometimes luck is the best weapon when playing Pure... :wink:

[Space Cowboy]

Dont get me wrong I like the game, its a fine WO, but its damn frustrating to know that you missed out on the perfect WO experience because of a few balacing issues that are so blatant, its incredible nobody picked them up in testing.
I was looking forward to this game for so long, and I feel let down. After Fusion I thought lessons had been learned and progress made, in certain fields this is true, but other aspects were ignored, and it shows, unfortuantely.
Im sure that the future of WO is very bright indeed, but all things considered its imperative that the devs listen to us, the community for their feedabck.

[Egg]

You live and learn, I suppose ... :wink:

The designers and programmers did a pretty good job, given the ridiculously tight schedule. It was always intended to be a launch game, remember. Plus there was the added pressure of downloadable stuff - the game has to have "hooks" to hang the new tracks and ships on, and all that had to be tested too.

There was bound to be something that didn't get tuned to everyone's satisfaction.

PS, this isn't meant as a get-out, and your opinions are being duly noted and recorded guys. All feedback is welcome :lol:

[Space Cowboy]

Good to know :)

[Hacker X]

Yeah don't get me wrong either. I LOVE this game, and I to have been a dedicated WO fan since PSX. Even the PURE has balancing issues, I still think its the most impressive WO to date. If developers are listening, definately keep up the good work guys. I'll keep taking the abuse from the AI, cause the game is too fun. :P

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

to space caowboy

the ai in pure is not a real issue because it is all luck what you get.

but you must rember that there are 7 ai racers and only 1 of you.

I admit you probably have better racing then me :oops: but you must identify the warning signs that carry with most wepons and act on them

[eLhabib]

right, like you are gonna react to a disruptor that is shot at you by the guy right behind you! no way! it's true that you CAN deal with the aggressive AI if you put enough practice into it, but the disruptor bolt is just a thing to its own. it's too easy to aim, to frequent to get and WAY too hazardous in effect. a weapon that reverses your controls, with you not even knowing IF it did so, and not knowing when it is gonna return to normal either, means a weapon that totally breakes your racing line, should be at least as difficult to aim and as sparse in appearance as the mighty plasma bolt.

[Curved]

Hehe, Ive gotten the reverse controls effect twice through my 130 medals.

[Space Cowboy]

I got the reverse control hit on my Phantom tourny last night. :( Luckily I'd gained enough points to be able to take it and still come first. By the end of the tourny though I was taking a veritable barrage of weapons fire the likes of which I had never seen before, it was quite ridiculous. The result of which was a drop in frame rate, making racing a real bitch :(
But in the end I still managed to come first, but that Disruptor is a sure fire way to spoil your day.

[Colin Berry]

I admit the reverse controls weapon is evil :twisted: and it went through a fair few discussions before getting the 'ok' - the chance of getting a disruption bolt is about 7% give or take half a percent, following that the reverse controls is one of 8 effects so its a 1in8 chance on something that is 7/100, so it shouldnt be too common unless you are unlucky :wink:


You can always use extra time for balancing, but its odd that the AI feel more aggressive in the faster speed classes, because weapon fire / distribution and the factors affecting this remain almost constant across the classes :?


As Egg said comments and feedback always welcome and it is taken on board - honest !

[wirehang]

I think the control reversal should be taken out. For sure.

I also think that the AI on some tracks at some later speeds need addressing. Time trial speeds on some of the download tracks are also slightly too unfair.

matt

[eLhabib]

nah, timetrial gold times are juuuust fine. I wish all tracks had gold times like those to beat!

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah I agree with you elhabib, I love the new time trial times! I get so much more satisfaction beating them.

[wirehang]

nah, timetrial gold times are juuuust fine. I wish all tracks had gold times like those to beat!
It was only Straten Park really that pissed me off. ;)

matt

[Space Cowboy]

You've got to be fast and know the tracks... thats just what WO is about. Leave the times be :)

[wirehang]

Yeah, I got there in the end as my rating shows. However, I thought that one was unusally difficult compared to the rest. On the whole they are fine.

matt

[Space Cowboy]

Staten Park is a particularly challenging TT.

[syckls]

I admit the reverse controls weapon is evil :twisted: and it went through a fair few discussions before getting the 'ok' - the chance of getting a disruption bolt is about 7% give or take half a percent, following that the reverse controls is one of 8 effects so its a 1in8 chance on something that is 7/100, so it shouldnt be too common unless you are unlucky :wink:

Would the chance of getting hit by a disruption bolt as you mentioned be 7% for every race or 7% for each time an opponent behind you is programmed to pick up a weapon? And I would also be very interested in hearing all eight effects of the disruption bolt. I know of reverse controls, random sideshifting, bouncing, partial autopilot and slow down, and I believe I have also been hit with a dud that only lasts for two seconds. If you've already said this somewhere on this board, please simply direct me towards that topic.

[Colin Berry]

The chance of any ship picking up a disruption bolt is about 7% (there are 10 pick ups but each is weighted individually)

The Disrupter effects....... hmmm well the game has been around long enough and most of these have been mentioned at some point or another so...

crikey I cant remember, one second I'll have to check... there might be more or less than 8...

right there is actually 10 (there was 14 but we cut some)
(all are temporary effects)

Stall
Disable airbrakes
reverse controls
autopilot slow
autopilot fast
drunk controls
rubber ship
alter gravity
drunk camera
trippy

[Hellfire_WZ]

Which ones were cut?

[Kansas]

Good responses guys. I agree with what you guys said about Citta Nuova. I FINALLY got gold on Rapier after developing 2 bleeding ulcers and a weeks worth of a state of depression. :lol:

I'm hoping they tweakt he Euro version's AI myself. I usually don't import, but for Wipeout I'll do anything. :wink:

I have golds on every track and every speed (except for Phantom)... with one exception... when I scroll down, there's that one silver on Citta Nuova... :sigh:

So many times I would be in 1st just one turn away from winning... and a wayward missile or a mysterious bomb would pop out of nowhere and that would be it for me...

Or, there was the time when I had hit a computer ship with a missile... I was all alone! Gold medal, here I come. Suddenly, the same ship I had just knocked out wooshed by with a speed burst... :brickwall

[Space Cowboy]

Colin, did you take into account that as the game speed increases craft pass over weopon pads more frequently, as a result the rate at which weapons are used or absorbed increases, hence the barrage of fire that you face on the faster classes?
Surely this would act as a 'force multiplier' resulting in increased weapon usage?

[syckls]

D'oh, I forgot about drunk camera. Can't believe that I did. :roll:

[Sven]

rubber ship
alter gravity
Say what!?

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

sorry for the late reaction.

the point of a race is to not be directally in front of another racer. That is the key to stop point plank shots but some get lucky this taictic has lead me to my 190 medals. 8) and the disruper bolt's reverse controls is the worst.

[Colin Berry]

Colin, did you take into account that as the game speed increases craft pass over weopon pads more frequently, as a result the rate at which weapons are used or absorbed increases, hence the barrage of fire that you face on the faster classes?
Surely this would act as a 'force multiplier' resulting in increased weapon usage?

Yeah that was taken into account but I cant for the life of me remember what we did about it, it was 9 months ago at least...... :?
We didnt use different pad refresh rates for different classes, which leads me to think we put in some sort of overall adjusting factor, which maybe didnt adjust as much as some would like but must have felt right at the time or we'd have changed it..

[djlucite]

rubber ship
alter gravity
Say what!?

Yeah, I don't remember ever feeling those effects.

Seems pretty nifty though.

[Space Cowboy]

Cheers for the input Colin :)

[Colin Berry]

no problem, its odd at times because so much was done ages ago so its tricky to remember, also with the game not yet released in Europe we cant comment too much about certain things.
Which is why when some people ask questions and get no answer it may look like they are being ignored, but its often a case that we cant comment

And then of course, sometimes we dont know :)

[Space Cowboy]

Fully understandable, given Sony's Iron fist when it comes to non-disclosure.
The devs here do seem to be some of the most outstanding when it comes to engaging with the community. Its good to be able to discuss a game that we are all so passionate about, and recieve feedback. :)

[wirehang]

And to state at every opportunity - i bloody love this game :D

matt