PS3 Wipeout :)

[Mobius]

There is a part in F-Zero GX like that. It isnt very good IMO.

[Roland]

here are my wishes. appologies for my english.

Overall:

Before we talk about graphics. I think what is important for a PS3 Wipeout is to be true
to the series. Wipeout is not an easy game. It's a simulator with tight controls. Wipeout
games have a very clean minimalistic feel. let's keep it that way. Wipeout has always
been very cool, because it was modern and arty in an intelligent way.


Gameplay:

It would be nice if they would really put a lot of work into the physics and make they
game very floaty and tight when it comes to steering. All i want basically is Wipeout 3
SE with even better physics.

Weapons should stay in the background and even if the PS3 is a very powerful system
they should stay clear of super flashing weapon effects. I also like the pigoens in the
first track in WO 3 SE. Let's focus on the small and subtle suff.


Ships:

I am not a big fan of the ship design in Pure. Ships should be long and edgy. It would be
cool if the ships could have a very shiny look to them almost like a mix between silicon
and metal.


FX:

The PS3 is no doubt powerful. I still wouldn't like it if they add tons of special effects just
for the sake of it. I'd like the weapon effects and ship effects to be very minimal, but still
cool looking by giving them some very nice shaders.

Track Design:

I'd like to overall style to be very industrial. Give me modernist skyscrapers, trees. Sort
of a German highway feel in a Kraftwerkian sense. :).

With the PS3 being so powerful I think it would be wise wise to look at pictures from a
few modern photographers for inspiration when it comes to how to design tracks for
Wipeout PS3 and also how to light them. Let's keep this game grounded in it's hypot. reality and let's not move it into super future land.

example

Peter Bialobrzesk - Megacities (this so screams wipeout)
http://www.photosinstore.com/projekte.php?thema=pro&pro=23&nr=1&content=bilder


I also can't seem to get enough of black and white striped textures for the ground.
nothing brings the sense of speed better across than black and white striped patterns.

Furthermore I'd like to see some long long stretches in the tracks. I think it would be
very nice if you would just go straight for a minute with a big cluster of skyscrapers
approching only to blaze right through them.


Menus:

I like the menu in Wipeout 3 Se. It's simple and yet very effective. It would be cool if they
could get someone like Ben Fry from MIT Media Labs to help create a visualisation
system for the menu. Getting someone like fry is bold and would fit Wipeout inho.

http://acg.media.mit.edu/people/fry/

Style:

No secret that Wipeout 3 SE is by far my favorite Wipeout Game. The Design from the
ships to the tracks should have a very minimalistc / industrial feel. Let's keep the clean
minimal Wipeout feel and don't let become just another Scifi Racer.

Don't get the Designers Republic involved, just for the sake of having TDR back. Most
of the good folks there have left in the last 2 years. Get one of the guys who work there
(preferable Michael C. Place).

Michael C. Place

I already mentioned this guy. he worked on Wipeout 3 Se and basically helped created
the whole Wipeout style. If there is someone to take it the wipeout style as we know it
and update it than he is the man.

http://www.designbybuild.com/
http://www.graphics11.com/creator/michael.html
(click at launch to view some of his work).

Universal Everything (also ex TDR)
http://www.universaleverything.com

Sanderson Bob (also ex TDR)
http://www.sandersonbob.com/


Conlusion:

All in all I want a clean, cold, minimalistic and above all elegant wipeout game that is
somewhat grounded in reality like Wipeout 1 and 3 have been combined with a very
modernist look and feel.

This is really the Wipeout I would like to see and I know it would be very ballsy for a
dev. team at sony to do such a Wipeout game (considering the marketing department
and all those people who who poke in their backs), butgames that dared to be creative
in the art department have been very successful lately, just look at Katamary Damacy,
Ico or just as how excited people seem about Sonys own Loco Roco. Comebine that
with the already big Wipeout fanbase and I am sure that this could be a very massive hit.

God how I'd love to work on a Wipeout game :)

[/url]

[Seek100]

I don't think they should involve outside graphic designers in any future wipEout, TDR have always been given far more credit than their due and involving ex-members would only lead the average person to assume they are responsible for the games again. SL's own people have done an awesome job with the graphic design - logos, menus, etc. in purE and have far surpassed w3o's style which was minimalism taken beyond the logical limit into just being silly. I needed my glasses on to read the menus in w3o - not cool.

I favour bringing back industrial elements, but industrial and minimalism are 2 diametricaly opposed styles, wipEout and 2097 were very much styled in the industrial vein, dark and forbidding, towering black skyscrapers and neon lighting abound. w3o completely reversed the depiction of the future with it's clean bright sterile parks and open layouts. The former is a very dystopian view of the future, the later an almost Star Trek like utopian view. Personally I'm in favour of the former style, I was quite let down by how bright and 'nice' everything was in Fusion.

I'd tone down the floatiness massively from wipEout 3 SE as they increased it beyond anything previously seen in wipEout, made numerous maneouvres look comical not to mention being bloody annoying. 2097 still ranks top of the pile in my book for the handling model and floatiness, w3o pretty much kept the handling but as I already stated increased the floatiness of the craft to silly proportions.

One thing that royally p*sses me off about purE which it has inherited from Fusion it seems is the ridiculous amounts of weapons fire giong on from Flash class and faster, this is meant to be a racing game, not an airborne wrestling match! :roll: One race on Chenghou, Flash class I was struck by 4 (FOUR, IV) quakes in a period of no more than 10 seconds, and that is no exaggeration. Obviously that's the extreme example but the emphasis on weapons over racing is still too great.

[randomperson1]

More of the same for me, just with better graphics and these ships:

All of pure's ships with the addition of:
Xios
EG-r
NX1000
Quantax(unbranded)
Al-Vaskei(unbranded)
(And please remove Medievil)

Oh yeah, and the classic tracks to incude Citta Nuova please.

[Sausehuhn]

If they would add classic tracks, I would love to see them not just as a simulation, they should look real, especially because the PS3 will be able to hadle high graphics. It would be so fantastic to race around Manor Top or Florion Height (still Florion's tracks are one of the best ever in my opinion) when these tracks would still look like the original, just with more elements; better effects (neon lights for example), more details and also more atmosphere with adding flying crafts in the sky and moving/walking/talking/acting people on buildings.

The handling should not be like Pure's one. Studio Liverpool did a big step backward with Pure's handling - and this is a positive thing. It's way better than Fusion's, but still it's not enough WipEout for me.
I don't wanna have this direct turning, it's too direct in Pure, so you cannot use the airbrake but also you're not able to turn without it.
Also I don't wanna have a 2nd Wip3out, because this game - as good as it is - has too much bouncing. And this is the same in 2097/XL. I don't want to bounce up and down and up and down and up and down again and again and again in a very, very, very short time in a tunnel, just because I entered the tunnel after a jump.
Don't get me wrong, I love the boucing, this is what makes WipEout so floaty, but it should feel not as hard as it feels in the older games, it should feel smooth. I cannot really describe it - maybe you all know what I mean.

Tracks should be designed intelligent. I don't mean the design of the buildings and the sourroundings here. I mean things like the entrances of tunnels and so on. It just killes the fun when there's a biiiiig jump, you're at full speed and then you cannot enter the following tunnel because you're too high in the air and the entrance of the tunnel is too low. So you've to break before the tunnel and you cannot enter with full speed.
This happend in Gare d' Europa in 2097.
If it will be possible to fly on the side panel, there shouldn't be any lamps etc. that could make you crash.
Boards should be on places you couldn't crash into. In Citta Nuova this happends many times and it's just a party killer.

And then something about speed: the tracks should have more things near the track that are flashing by when you're on the track with full speed. This makes the whole race seems faster. They also should add stripes on the left and the right of the track like in Fusion - this makes the same effect.

And Phantom should be faster. In Fusion it's A LOT faster than in any other WipEout game. I know it would be hard to fly at the beginning. But everyone who played WipEout longer than one month knows that after a time also Phantom seems more or less slow.

[eLhabib]

the way I see it, the 'simulation' look of the classic tracks in purE makes sense to keep the believeability of the game together. Seeing as the whole league is located on Makana island now, how would the classic tracks fit in as 'real' tracks? They wouldn't, hence the virtual look. Makes perfect sense, fine with me.

As for purE's handling: I grew to like it A LOT. It's a bit more like a simulation than the older games, which were very arcadey. Now, it shouldn't BECOME a simulation IMO, but a tad realism definitely adds to the experience. For a future wipEout, I would like to see a refined version of purE's handling. A little bit floatier, a LITTLE less affected by inertia, and a LITTLE faster out of corners, that's all.

[Mobius]

You would think though that in 250 years time that they could make a simulation which didnt look like Tron and looked like the real world wouldnt you?

As for the physics I agree with eLhabib make them a bit floatier, but not to the extent of 3SE, which i think are the best Z-axis physics but like the steering in pure witha bit more punch.

Going slighly off, does anyone agree with me that the ships in pure behave like boats on water do?

[bakkufu]

I am getting used to the steering on pure, I think from personal preference I prefer the handling on 2097 though.

[Riotstarter]

Definately agree about the handling in 2097...I thought it had an awesome "anti-grav" feel to it.

Apologies if this has already been said, I haven't read all 11 pages...but one thing I'd love to see in a future Wipeout game is an advanced physics engine with realistic damage models, e.g. a missile/rocket blows off a wing leaving you listing to one side until you're ship is repaired...how that would be done I have no idea. That said, the weapons system would have to go through an overhaul so weapons aren't as frequently used. I just think it would be awesome to smash into a wall head on and bend/dent the fueselage of your craft.

Again I don't feel too much emphasis should be placed on special effects, it should just be kept realistic. However one small touch i'd love to see would be a sort of light bending effect around the engine exhaust...now that would be cool.

But yeah, back to basics...clean lines, long stretched out craft...I mean come on, Goteki anyone?

[randomperson1]

Apologies if this has already been said, I haven't read all 11 pages...but one thing I'd love to see in a future Wipeout game is an advanced physics engine with realistic damage models, e.g. a missile/rocket blows off a wing leaving you listing to one side until you're ship is repaired...how that would be done I have no idea.

You could have a proper pit stop...

[Seek100]

one thing I'd love to see in a future Wipeout game is an advanced physics engine with realistic damage models, e.g. a missile/rocket blows off a wing leaving you listing to one side until you're ship is repaired...how that would be done I have no idea.

wipEout Fusion had this. I thought it was a cool idea before I actually played Fusion, then I had the misfortune of experiencing it. It sucked. We all screamed to have it removed. It just isn't as fun as it sounds I'm afraid.

@ randomperson1: I doubt a proper pitstop would be feasable, actually replacing bits of the craft would take minutes, an average race in pure only lasts between 1 and 4 minutes meaning an instantly lost race if you lose a wing while you sit in the pit having little polygonal technicians with really nice animation unbolting the wing and getting a new wing and bolting it on. It'd look really awesome but destroy the gameplay.

[randomperson1]

Yeah but this is 22?? (in the next game) so the technology could be much better and therefore only 4 - 5 sec. pit stops

[Seek100]

No matter how advanced tech gets it still takes time to take something apart and put back together, unless you have it done by a complicated set of machine arms working much faster than a pit crew could ever dream of, it'd still be really painful in such short races as wipEout purE has - remember how fracking annoying the pit stops in Fusion were, they forced you to slow down and 3 or 4 craft would overtake you while you were in the pit lane. We could always compensate the time loss by going back to the really long course of wipEout 1 and thus give people a chance to make up for those 4 or 5 seconds extra spent in the pits. But really if they have this automatic ship-repair tech in 2097 why would they suddenly abandon it a hundred years later in favour of mechanically replacing components?

[eLhabib]

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

the ideal pitlane for me would be one like in wo2097/xl, meaning a strip, next to the track, where you fly through and get repaired.
BUT
-the strip should NOT slow you down in any way, meaning you CAN fly through it at top speed
-the strip should be VERY short (like 4 to 5 ship lengths), so if you only need a bit energy, you can speed through it, but if your a$$ is on serious fire, you have to slow down considerably to get more energy replenished

any pit lane - or even pit STOP - that slows you down in any way or even brings you to a complete halt will effectively destroy the flow of a race totally, meaning it is NOT acceptable for a wipEout game.

[Riotstarter]

Yeah I thought about this, and the whole slowing down issue. It would definately have to be a similar pitlane to 2097/XL. By the time you got out of a literal pitlane everyone else would have finished the race...point?!

Hi to everyone by the way - I'm new to the forums :D glad to have finally found a bunch of nutters who are as addicted to Wipeout as me!

[Colin Berry]

Pit lanes are a thing of the past.

:)

[Sausehuhn]

So you've not planned to bring them back in the next WipEout?
hm... I mean: the absorbing thing is good for a portable game like Pure, cause you don't have to pay as much attention as you would have to if the game would still have a pitlane. That is a good thing for a portable game, esspecailly because the places you play with the PSP aren't that quiet most time.
But for I home console game I still prefer the pit lane. There's more thrill and the absorbing thing works good, but not as good as a pitlane does, because sometimes you're just absorbing, absorbing and absorbing, just to surrvive...

But hey:
do what ya want!
I'm fine with the next WipEout sa long as it has EG.r ;)

[lunar]

the absorb system is perfect, particularly for multiplayer which is the future. Absorb creates dilemmas, forces you to make strategic decisions on the fly and doesn`t slow down the game.

A typical situation is this: you`re on the last lap of a race, 1 second behind the leader and you have a turbo to have him with on the final straight - but there are three nasty bends to go and your shield energy is bottomed out on the red. One mistake or weapon strike and you`re dead. What do you do? Absord and hope to oufly him? But will you be fast enough? Will he make a mistake? Or do you risk it knowing the turbo will probably win you the race if you survive? Don`t change it plz - it`s lovely.

[Drakkenmensch]

Another plus to the weapon absorb system is that it gives usefulness to every weapon regardless of situation. Getting mines while you're in last place is not completely useless, you just turn them to shield energy which you can then use to barrel roll.

I also find it VERY interesting that quakes and plasma bolts give MORE energy than other weapons when absorbed - if you're low on energy, do you absorb it and be assured to survive, or do you let it rip anyway and HOPE your skills will carry you through to the next weapon pad?

ADDITIONAL: (edited to avoid double posting)

It might be nice to have a system of pseudo-realistic damage - visible damage that reflects the amount of shield energy lost, though not actually affecting ship performance, similar to what you have in Twisted Metal: Head-On. This would allow you to guage if your opponent is close to death, not to mention look cool! Effects could include twisted or broken fins, missing airbrake panels, lost hull sections, cockpit cracks, missing canopy, sparks and sputter from the main exhaust and a trail of smoke when you're a few pixels away from eliminated contender status.

Another idea that might be interesting would be a more FORCEFUL player elimination - when your ship goes, it goes with a BANG, exploding with the same force as a bomb and possibly taking out the offending racer who finished you off :twisted:

[lunar]

I really like the last idea, Drak, it appeals to me; and also when a ship goes up you feel a pulse of energy and see a bright light flash around the whole track. On dark tracks the sky lights up. This could add a whole lot more drama to "contender eliminated."

If there`s going to be ship damage it should only be in the last few moments before elimination, when your shields are out and you`re pretty much toast already. But I think we`ve seen with reversing disruptors how things that sound clever in theory can just be annoying in game. Though hitting someone with one of these so they fall down the Sinupit can be pretty amusing. Never makes up for the rage of getting hit yourself though and it killing the race.

[Drakkenmensch]

That's why I think the "damage" should only slightly affect the look of your ship, not actual performance, much like Daytona USA :)

[Colin Berry]

The problem I have with pit-lanes is, you go in at the end of your second lap, top up your energy three laps to go, great - race on ! Then you come out of the pit lane and get hit by a plasma - you now have to race like an 80 year old grannie, carefully taking corners not wanting even the slightest scrape because your energy is low and another hit or two means death. Sure we could have pit lanes and put the energy pick up back ala 2097, but if we do end up making a new wipeout, then we will probably prefer to look at the new system and ways in which we can refine that rather than go back to something from a while ago.

[eLhabib]

+1
I strongly agree with that.
I also like drak's idea to have smoke trails on a ship which is badly damaged and only needs 1 or 2 more blows (which would of course mean that EVERYONE will be bullseyeing it :D ).

[Riotstarter]

Love Draks idea viz aesthetic damage. Would look really cool, especially the smoke trails. They should glow red near the engine to give the appearance of an engine fire or something.

Then a splintering explosion which rocks the track and blinds pilots in the nearby vicinity. Awesome....

[Sausehuhn]

In Fusion there is already such a "visual" damage. Just turn off the damage simulator and the ship's handling will be the same all the time, just the "face" of the ship will be damaged. Like this a lot, esspecially because the PS3 will be able to make really realistic damage effects :)

But in the next WipEout you really just should lose (for example) the left wing when you crashed with the wing into a side panel or something. The ship souldn't change it's face as a result of the lose of energy, it should be a result of the way you make your race.

[Fenix]

Well, I have been playing wipeout2097 ever since oct 98, at least 2 to 3 times a week, im an addict :o (i love qirex). Anyways, so whatever comes out of wipeout in ps3 or whatever wouldnt disappoint me, ive been playing wo97 ever since i was 10 and i still enjoy playing, i feel like i owe psygnosis so much lol :wink:

[element42]

[off topic] Fenix! Welcome :D ! If you've been playing 2097 for that long, you must have some good times you can post in the tables on the main site! [resume topic]

[Fenix]

I will put them up once i finish my exams, thanx for the warm welcome element42 :P

[Dominator]

Having played Wipeot since it's conception back in 95, good old Psygnosis, and then all the sequels, Pure is just brilliant!!!! Back to it's original roots like 2097, mind blowing music, exhilarating speeds and good old fashioned racing, not knocking Fusion as i did enjoy it, just didn't feel like a Wipeout sequel. My hat goes off to Studio Liverpool with this installment, hoping they work on the PS3 edition and take on board all the great idea's posted on this forum.
New member!!!! :D

[yawnstretch]

WELCOME Dominator ;)

Enjoy your time here in the bliss of wipeout-itude 8)

[Dominator]

"Thanks Yawn" Finally, others who share my passion, AG Racing, nothing else compares, and FEISAR still rocks!!!!

[Sausehuhn]

I wanna see alot of bump mapping on the PS3 :rock

[exarkann]

never. ever. ever. get rid of quake.

[Sausehuhn]

One thing I defenitely want to see - or better: want to feel - on the next WipEout is speed.
I don't want to say that the WipEout games are slow - truly not!
But there're ways to make it feel faster. Fusion made the first step there with alot of stripes on the left and right side of the track. These lines are flashing by directly next to your craft and it makes the whole thing feel faster.
But lines on the sides are not the only way to do that.
Things that are far away from you don't change their size really noticable, because of their big distance. But boards, lamps, buildings etc. that are near on the track are changing their size alot faster because the distance is not that big. So: things that far away don't flash by fast, things that are close to the craft are flashing by fast.
So we need more objects that are directly next to the track.

We also need a new view. Especially Pure's view is a top view. The new view has to be more behind the ship so you maily see the ship's back side - something like 2097's or 3's.
(it would be a good solution [that were also done in Fusion] to make more than just 3 views for all these guys who like other views as well)

[username]

I wanna see alot of bump mapping on the PS3 :rock

what is bump mapping?

[Sausehuhn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_mapping

[Lance]

and always always always have nosecam view available. :)

[Megatron42]

How about some awesome post-processing effects, like a motion blur? Kinda like the one in these latest Trackmania games (if you've ever seen that, I think it's awesome looking). It can really help the sense of speed. Imagine a post going by on the edge of the track. Seeing the 12 frames of a post's static position as it travels frame by frame is very unconvincing versus the effect that you get from blurring the post in the direction of its travel.

[eLhabib]

I'm not totally against all those graphical 'enhancements', but I have to say I absolutely love the clean, sterile speed feel of the wipEout series. Granted, some motion blur in the right places would be cool if it's used wisely, but please don't let wipEout become another Burnout or NFSU, EVER! Those games have definitely overused the blur effect just to make it look cooler. WipEout doesn't need that. It's fast enough as it is.

[username]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_mapping

i see, thanks max :rock

[Sausehuhn]

@ eL

that's the reason why I thought about "normal" ways to let it feel faster.

[Megatron42]

Well if used sparingly/realistically I think blur is the answer you're looking for. There are just certain things about static frame refreshes that otherwise inhibit normal interpretation of motion.

See this little essay (http://freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/graphics/x_motion.htm). It explains it a bit, but check out the cube demo.

[XR_GTR]

IMO, there's been one thing that bugs me: when you run out of shield you go down, and IMO I think it'd porbably be better if you could suffer just a little more after your shield is gone- THEN the craft takes visual damages, and shortly after blows up. Course, that may make the plasma/energy bolt ineffective as a elimination weapon, more like a shield take-down weapon, much like the plasma pistol from Halo. You could then finish him off with a missle or two, but I guess that takes too long. The pit lanes they can put back in, I really don't care too much, as long as they are open, so one can just swerve in to get a little more shield to quickly get back into action, or go the whole distance and get a full recharge.

[xqpx]

One little thing I've been wondering about for a while: how well will online gameplay work with all these random weapons? I've never played Wipeout multiplayer with anyone good, so I wouldn't know, but wouldn't it be frustrating to be doing a perfect race only to get hit by a missile that can't be avoided? It just seems like there would be too much luck involved once you master the game. I can think of various ways to solve the problem, but they all kind of detract from how weapons are supposed to work in Wipeout.

One of the things that I love about the online races in Burnout games is that there's luck that makes it fun for new players, but almost all of this luck can be controlled if you're a good enough racer. You always know that if you were good enough you would have dodged that truck or avoided that slam. I'm just worried about how things will work out in Wipeout.

You know, maybe this isn't even a problem. But I'm just wondering if anyone else can comment on this...

[lunar]

Me and Assayeah were discussing this sort of thing after playing on Kai - and while there can obviously be individual instances of good or bad luck with weapons: getting what you need when you need it, it just adds some spice and the luck all evens out in the end. When you get a good pick up you often have to work hard and have a good strategy to turn it to a major advantage. So although there are instances of good luck in particular situations, weapons can`t do your work for you overall.

When you`re playing well you always seem to get the weapons you need, and when you`re playing badly you always seem to get the worst of the luck. But it`s just an illusion: fly better and your weapons will be better too, grasshopper ;) The weaker pilot is relying on his weapons to do the work for him. They never can, so they seem bad. If he then blames his own weapons or his opponent`s "good fortune", rather than blaming himself, he is in a mental trap. I`ve been there plenty of times. :cold


Any more powerful weapons than in Pure would ruin this balance completely, but it does work well at the moment, although bombs should be clearable by quakes and there should be less deadstops generally, and no race-ending weapons like reverse disruptors. Generally it`s good and only needs a tweak for PS3 Multiplayer Imo.

[Asayyeah]

Absolutely agree with Lunar.
Weapons could give you sometimes an extra advantage for the finishing line but that means you do very good the other laps . Moreover it's not rare for me to wait with a certain kind of weapon during more than 1 lap ( best on Sol2 waiting 4 laps with a quake , just to have enough time to do it reverse ( backquake ) after the open area for maximum effect : result : 2 contenders eliminated ;) ). Mostly i absorb or fire the weapon asap to have the ' luck ' to get next a destructive one or a turbo.

Back missiles missed me ( but not backquakes : the difficulty to turn around to fire it reverse is funny enough for me ;) )

[exarkann]

^how do you manage to turn around quickly? that was one part of fusion i did like, backquake and backmissles...

[eLhabib]

just heavy airbrake and steer all the way to one side in a wider section of track (or a turn).

[xqpx]

OK guys, thanks for telling me what the game is like online. I had never played on Xlink Kai, even though I wanted to. I followed all the directions on their site a while back, but it just didn't work, and no one would help me fix the problem... so I just gave up. I'm just waiting for the PS3 now, with the Xbox 360 (and the new Burnout Revenge) to help pass the time.

[ProblemSolver]

... I'd like to see at least 20 tracks to choose from, and I don't mean ten forward ten reverse. Upwards of 20 is the standard nowadays ...
Something we can still dreaming off. Arrgh!

[wipeout rocks]

if you check wikapedia on s.l and look at titles one is listed as wipeout ps3 (working title)

[Lance]

ProblemSolver, the last post in this thread before you posted today was more than 3 years and 9 months in the past. Any particular reason it needed to be revived?

[ProblemSolver]

Putting the former expectation in contrast to what we got. Pretty good read.

[Chill]

I was just about to post the same thing about the wikipedia thing... Like just now...

Perhaps they were originally planning the original PS1 Wipeouts... without barrel rolls and with pit lanes and overdrive... and with PS3 neGcons... and all that goes online... Uuugh practically a dream come true... :P

Sorry Lance...