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Thread: Why is Wipeout Fusion hated

  1. #11
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    Rapier Racer: Assegai/Qirex, WeedJunky: Mirage, lizEth17: Feisar, MurcielgaoMLRZ: Feisar, Knux_Chaotix: Goteki 45, theconzio: Harimau/AG Systems, SKRUFFEM: Piranha, Apple-Guy-Cipher: Feisar/Harimau, Pixiewonders: Triakis... Just to name a few. I have no problem finding skilled pilots that aren't Icaras. I do see a lot of "n00b" pilots in Icaras and Feisar but that doesn't mean there is an imbalance. It just merely means that most people view the handling and speed stats as more important for whatever reason they pick up the game. I stand by my point: if you find the game unbalanced, you are either not that good, or you don't play with equally skilled pilots. Given the current state of the online play these days, the latter is probably the most common reason people may find it unbalanced.

    Is there an over-saturation of Icaras pilots? Yes. Does this mean WOHD is unbalanced? No. I chose Icaras for one reason: I hate Elimination, I hate using weapons, and I barrel roll whenever I can every time I can. That is what Icaras excels at. Since you only need ship energy to roll if you can get away, this is the ideal strategy for Icaras. Obviously other ship don't share the same ideal tactic, and require the use of weapons to excel. Thing is, when used correctly, the Icaras is a very fragile ship, often one missile assault away from elimination. As I said earlier, I win or I get eliminated. Now using the Triakis for example, you still take 15 energy for a barrel roll, but when you get into one-shot missile range for an Icaras, you would easily withstand it in a Triakis. Triakis rolls about as fast as Fury Icaras does and has more rear end thrust which helps on uphill turns where as Icaras has more of a central-back center of gravity making hill climbing more tedious.

    The hidden stats aren't just related to traction either. It often deals with a ship's sense of gravity and mass as well as collision physics. Ever tried ramming a Triakis in an Icaras? Ever notice how the Auricom handles more like an American muscle car than a Ferrari? Some of the hidden stats are not as easily noticed while others are. One thing I have noticed about the ships with better shields is that they also recover faster from impacts and weapon impacts. While they don't outright tell you this in the stats, it is implied with the shield strength stat.

    True enough that Wipeout isn't just a racing game, but it is still a racing game first and foremost. The dev's didn't intend for weapons to specifically be used to eliminate each other rather change the tide of a race by slowing down and disabling opponents. This is why the shield stat IS important and why I feel there is a balance. Once again though, what makes a game like this balanced is when people play to the ships respected strengths that are all equally matched. Just because you have a lobby full of Icaras ships with one Triakis doesn't make the game unbalanced. It just means that there is a better chance an Icaras will win due to sheer numbers (if everyone is equally matched).

    The only unbalanced thing I might can say is that Auricom handles and feels like an inferior version of the Qirex and the EGX feels like a complete failure of a ship that doesn't really excel at any one thing in particular. However I will say that I don't have much experience with either of these ships so it isn't an unbiased opinion.

    Fusion makes no attempt at balance, but the way you proceed through the various leagues and upgrade your ship it doesn't matter and since there is no online play, balance likely wasn't the focus for the game. This may in fact be the reason some dislike it actually no that I think about it. The end game Piranha essentially has a max stat at everything, and is clearly the best ship to use.

    As far as the speed is concerned, it does appear faster maybe in videos, but you'll also notice considerably wider tracks. It feels a lot like F-Zero did, where the speed was outweighed by wider tracks and far less punishing technical tracks. Some find this appealing. I personally am indifferent. There are not speed classes in Fusion, rather upgrades you make scale the other ship's ai to match. So you might be going faster, but the tracks are so much wider that it doesn't really feel like it. Additionally, F-Zero had almost no technical tracks. Fusion sort of follow this pattern in that most of the tracks are more open feeling.

    When max upgraded, I find the game feels similar to a Rapier race with skilled Ai.

  2. #12
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    Still though, Icaras, Harimau and Feisar are a bit too common (AGS is up there too). I just wish there was more color out there. The difference in damage between the Icaras and triakis is more underwhelming than you might think, Triakis takes 100% from everything and Icaras takes 115%. So a 20% hit to tri is 23% to ica. Yes it adds up, but to what? Nothing one extra absorb can't fix (which is what Icaras is going to be doing anyways). Handling seems to have the largest effect on stats, and speed has the least, with Ica having only 15 more kph over the HD Feisar in all classes (in Phantom class this difference seems nearly worthless). I would also say that the Turbo is a tad too common of an item, it's clearly the best one for winning races. But I see your points, and I hope you can see mine.

    I never said I wasn't a skilled player. I've been playing HD since 2009 and I have at least top 100 in all the Phantom class speed laps, time trials and zone events. I would hope that makes me at least minimally decent. I race with Maciek sometimes and he seems to be about same level as me. (Though I can never catch him on Sol 2, he knows something I don't)

    I personally prefer to use Auricom purely for the fact that it's the same team Arial Tetsuo was originally on. But if auri isn't helping me win I'll quickly switch to Harimau or Feisar. I think I've since mastered the Auricom and I think it's safe to say it is not an inferior Qirex. Qirex has drastically worse traction and is much harder to control with accuracy despite it's faster turning arc, so saying Auri is inferior isn't really fair. I also used EGX for a long time and... yeah... it's worthless. Just use Goteki. If the EGX's stats were 90/90/75/70 it would be a viable option over Goteki, it would be a ship with a reliable high top-speed but no real handling or defense. But as it stands 5 base speed is not a fair trade of 10 acceleration and 10 shield.

    I do think it's possible to have technical courses in a fast racing game like fusion, all you would need is the same physics as 2097 and then scale up the speed and width of the track respectively. Most people say "a wider track makes it too easy" but they miss the point, I'm saying it would still be difficult because the speed has been scaled too. FZero has over done the width of the track to making it pretty simple to avoid the walls. Not to mention that FZero machines have perfect traction as if they were connected to a rail on the ground where WipEout ships slide as if they were actually flying. If you can imagine an FZero game with WipEout traction, air time, and slightly more narrow tracks, you would have what I'm talking about. It would be WipEout but with an amplified sense if speed. I can only assume Fusion must have failed to present this.

  3. #13
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    Yes, you are correct in your assumption that Fusion failed to present that amplified sense of speed. Now don't get me wrong here, I personally liked Fusion. There were certain elements in it that I really wish had made it to later iterations such as the RPG leveling and using cash to buy ship upgrades. I just don't want you to get the wrong idea of Fusion. It isn't a bad game. It is just so different in handling from the other games that it hardly feels like Wipeout. Wipeout is so technical that you need that quick responsive handling to make it feel like a Wipeout game. All I'm saying is that Fusion didn't have that. The controls were much more stiff, and when combined with the larger wider courses, it really does feel alien to what you might be used to in a Wipeout game. For Fusion, the ships do have a "heavier" feel to them, and they almost feel glued to the track, except on patches of snow and dirt in which the handling is just wtf all around. But I imagine in a read world AG race, any track segment that didn't have a solid surface would have that effect, so you can't blame them for trying something different in Fusion. Once again though, I would recommend owning all of the titles and just understanding that Fusion is something different and not necessarily to be compared to the other games in the series. In the US, the only Wipeout game actually released on the PS2 was Fusion, and it didn't have the mass following that Wipeout XL, Wip3out, or HF/Fury had. It was different, it was the oddball, it was to some: the black sheep.

    As far as everything else goes, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a sense of balance when I race the elites on my friends list. I see lobbies full of new/novice pilots that all chose Icaras or Feisar, but I see very few people who I haven't already added that know how to truly race with an Icaras or a Feisar. I meant no offense, and I certainly wouldn't want to insinuate that you were an inexperienced pilot without even racing with you. However that being said, if all of your top records are in SL, TT, and Zone, then I don't know how balance relates at all seeing as how Zone doesn't matter, and SL and TT world records are all owned by Icaras pilots (you have to admit it is the best ship for those modes, and I think there is little argument because the WR times are often separated by 0.5 seconds or so). There are a few records held by Feisar and Harimau too, but in general SL and TT modes don't benefit ships that have exceptional shield stats over speed. It is why you have to beat Zico in a Piranha: it is faster that all other ships except Icaras. Speed wins SL and TT WR's; racing lines win Zone WR's; Reflexes win WR for Detonator; and a combination of all these things wins normal races and each ship has a unique play style, or at least I would like to argue that the developers intended it that way. In short, balance doesn't matter for solo TT or SL play and thus shouldn't be counted in the discussion.

    I can understand having team loyalty based on past experiences, but HD truly allows you to find your own unique play style and find a ship that matches that. My favorite ship in Wip3out was Assegai. I quickly realized however that it just wasn't the ship for me for HD, so I switched to the ship that best suited how I race which happened to be the Icaras HD, and that's HD as in HD vs Fury. I've known some ace Qirex pilots, and a few Auricom, but in general it seems that the Auricom is the only ship aside from the EGX that just doesn't excel at anything in particular. So this is why I say that Auricom seems like an inferior version to Qirex: it handles similarly, but the Qirex edges out the Auricom in just about every way. At least that has been my experience, and admittedly I don't use the Auricom that much because it doesn't feel right to me much like the EGX doesn't feel right. Qirex doesn't feel right either, it just feels less not right than Auricom.

    One last thing. When you compare stats, you can't just assume verbatim that the numerical stats of a ship in the lobby screen tell the whole truth because they often don't. I'm not bragging, but I'm a pretty ace pilot (at least I used to be before I took a hiatus for a few months) with an Icaras. I have about 90 top 50 ranked records across the board, 1 WR for a Multiplayer race, and numerous other top 10's. I would rank myself easily in the top 10% based on wipeoutrankings.com averages. Let's just say I was pretty familiar with an Icaras cockpit. However I never tried many other ships before getting to that point as most pilots who spend that much time playing have a definite favorite ship and a possible alternate they are pretty good with. I switched to Harimau, and ultimately Feisar for Phantom, and it made a world of difference just for Phantom speed records. In otherwords, on Phantom, Icaras tends to be outclassed by ships that handle better due to the necessity of airbraking at higher speeds for certain tracks. I also briefly tried AG Systems and Goteki45 for the acceleration with some success. As is, all of my Phantom records are either Feisar or Harimau. After a while, it got to the point where I didn't care about the stats, and cared more about how a ship felt. Is having 100% handling really worth it on Venom? Is having 100% speed really worth it on Phantom? I just experimented around until I found a ship that handled how I wanted it to and stuck with it. You can't judge a ship by its stats. You can't judge a pilot by his/her ship choice. You can't judge a racing game by its pilots.

    These balances become more apparent at Rapier/Phantom because the tracks force you to race more technically than on slower speeds. Also remember that some tracks are not made for certain ships. For example: on Chenghou FWD or Sebenco FWD, Icaras is at a disadvantage over a ship like a Feisar. However on a track like Moa Therm Rev, the Feisar is at a significant disadvantage to an Icaras. Polar opposite tracks and polar opposite ships create that balance. Meanwhile, ships like Mirage, Assegai, Ag Systems and Qirex all have less polarizing abilities, and are more suited for extended play in a tournament because while they don't excel at either technical or speed tracks, they are good all around ships for a variety of different races and situations.

    If you went off of stats alone, then technically speaking (based on total amount of stat points) the order of ships best to worst would be the following:

    1. Feisar/Ag Systems - 330 each
    2. Qirex/Goteki45/Assegai/Mirage - 320 each
    3. Piranha/Triakis/EGX/Harimau/Auricom - 310 each
    4. Icaras - 300

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGgamer View Post
    The new focus on combat was something the series had always needed in order to make shield energy actually make a difference in a race. In HD energy was almost worthless since absorbing could restore more than a weapon could deal. And more often than not you got weapons you didn't want at that moment and you would absorb them. In fusion you can't absorb, if you want to heal in fusion you have to go through the pit-stop and lose precious seconds of speed; punishing you for not being able to manage your health. The shield stat was what it always should have been: A risk versus reward stat.
    Sure, in later installments you can eliminate someone in a race if enough hits were given but in races they were highly uncommon (for me at least).
    Last edited by Rovenami; 9th July 2015 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Quotation error fix

  5. #15
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    I'm on the same page as you on this one. I didn't feel like eliminations were common at all until HD/Fury. And even then they aren't common, rather more frequent than they used to be. Elminations are a part of the game, but it certainly isn't the focus. I personally still find the shield stat relevant.

    Additionally for HD, when you absorb, you get an amount of energy back based on the weapon. Absorbing a plasma bolt can restore as much as half of your ship energy while absorbing a leech beam restores less than 20%. Absorbing gives you close to the same amount of energy back as what the weapon could deal, and in most cases actually less. So the comment above: "In HD energy was almost worthless since absorbing could restore more than a weapon could deal" is false.

  6. #16
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    Just a small two cents on the energy and stuff. I think one of the toughest games to play online was Pure. I know it does not have full online but we fixed that with tunneling software and boom online Pure. Sheild mattered a lot here, the energy you got from absorbing was minimal at best even the plasma didn't offer a great deal compared to the damage it could do so you had to be sure you were making the right call when you chose to fire off those rockets. Playing it online every week I can tell you that eliminations were rife all over the place with up to 4 or 5 players being destroyed at a time! And I'm talking about skilled players. Anyone who played those sessions will tell you eliminations were very much alive and well before HD came along. I feel Wipeout Pure brought a large tactical element to the series one that is no longer present and one that meant despite the new absorb mechanic you were still at huge risk of death if you made the wrong call or took that risk which didn't quite pay off. No respawn either so you really had to choose wisely!

  7. #17
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    RR, yes, you`re right!, Pure`s online is a total different televish! (sp?) But imagine, me, asa, Rapier, mad-ice and Lunar! that year were awesome!

    Sorry for off topic!

    stevie

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    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    Fusion had the worst mechanics for braking imaginable. You tap on the brakes, and its almost as if nothing happens. For me, this alone was enough to make it a noticeable inferior title. It didn't feel like a Wipeout game, the mechanics are just that different.
    I just finished playing the game for the first time (on an emulator at decent speed). I don't know where your opinion about the air brakes come from. Tapping them while turning allows me to perform a smooth slide, useful for those semi-elevated corners. It's less straightforward, I know. But this feels more realistic imo because the ships don't look aerodynamic at all which can not explain, let say, Wipeout 3-style handling on these things. I guess this would also make the game too hard. Did you ever race on that oval prototype track on wipeout 3 SE? Accelerating beyond 600 kph would cause your ship to take of with the slightest steering mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    Next, the track design, while not completely regrettable, didn't really have any memorable standouts. The track design was just not up to par with the rest of the series. Different sections of the track would open and close based on the track selection, which was kind of cool, but the tracks themselves felt uninspired.
    I think most will agree that the huge drop on Florion height is one of the most memorable track sections of the whole series.
    Other than that, I think the overall design of the game needs to be taken into consideration, in which case all the track designs fit well as they form that dark atmosphere we all like from XL but with a more modern take on it. (I think Pure applies to it in some way as well but it added lots of sunlight). Both Fusion and Pure have the best looks in the way that they use 'normal' architectural designs, rather than the Star wars neon bleep bleep of Pulse and HD.

    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    In all the other games, there wasn't an outright "best" ship. The ships were diverse in their handling so that the term "best" was objective. You could be just as quick in a ship with high top speed as a ship with good acceleration. In Fusion, there was an obvious progression and a vast inequality between the different ship classes when fully upgraded.
    I felt disappointed about that too, but I discussed this already elsewhere on the forums. The point is that this is a realistic approach, (see real F1) as the guys with the most R&D (read: most money) can build the best racing vehicles, and are as such always better at anything (safe for reliability).

    That doesn't mean I find the game pure awesomeness at all times though. What I hate the most where the abrupt stops a ship would do if hit by anything from any direction. Especially later on when you unlock stuff like the gravity bomb. It's for the first time in the game's series that the AI is fully armed, but this just shows how overpowered some weapons are. (one of the races I did today ended in a mere three contenders reaching the finish line - not good)

  9. #19
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    Lot of good thoughts there. I want to make it clear that I loved this game. I far from hated it. I just felt on the whole, it wasn't up to the same level as the other WO games in the series. It is hard to compare it to the first one, simply because everything is hard to compare to the first one. the first Wipeout in a sense, has an immunity because without it, there would be no XL, wip3out, Pure, Pulse, or HD and 2048. It isn't bad at all, just different enough where if barely feels like a Wipeout title.

    Now depending on you PC control device, there may be no lag in the controls and an emulated version might work better. I can't personally say because I haven't tried it. But the actual PS2 Dvd-Rom version did have significant handling problems. I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that point because myself (and many others that have replied) found the controls to be the biggest difference from the other games. In Wip3out, the brakes are pseudo pressure sensitive. You can press for a slight reduction or hold for a sharp continuous curve. If was fluid in the same way HD is. Fusion didn't work the same way. The only way to get accurate turning was to multi-tap the brake. Many pilots didn't like the way that felt as they were used to the old mechanic which was more fluid and natural feeling as an airbrake. I don't care one bit for reality in a futuristic racer. In fact, the more realistic it is, the worse it is for me. If I wanted a realistic and un-fun driving experience, I would drive myself to the Dentist. I don't play Wipeout because it is a realistic game. I think most of us play it for the exact opposite reason. I did play all the prototypes on WO3, and while I'll admit they are stupid hard compared to the other tracks and way less forgiving, it just took practice and wasn't an effect of the handling mechanic. The track's texture mapping I felt was the real culprit there because depth perception was easy to get confused on with the solid textures and it was easy to get lost/confused.

    Now when I speak about the track design, you might have misinterpreted what I meant to say a little. Take HD as an example. You have tracks like Chenghou and Sebenco Climb which will live in fear for many pilots, and utter delight in others. The track design was superb for HD. Since Pulse had the original HD tracks, it gets a nod also (and it had some additional gems as well that didn't make it to HD). Wipeout 3 had memorable favorites like the Manor Top, and was the first to explore an inner city setting. Who can forget the first time the raced through the Jungle in XL? Or how stupid hard that metro station was. In general, I feel that the main problem was tied into the ship handling, because most of the tracks were much wider and to me felt more like F-Zero style tracks. There were some that had some excellent scenery, but for the most part when compared to the rest of the series, the tracks felt more generic. The graphics were awesome though. I liked racing through the jungle in particular, and Florion Heights almost had a Pod Racer feel to it. The graphic design was definitely on par with the rest of the series.

    Honestly, there is little balance between ships. But as I've stated before, I liked earning the best ship. It gave a clear goal to work towards, and I felt as though I had earned it. Part of the major discussion in this thread was over balance, so I only find it necessary to mention the lack of it in Fusion. However it was local multiplayer only, so this wasn't really an issue. As you've said, the obvious best R&D at the time of Fusion was with Piranaha. You are essentially a freelance pilot, and you change your ship loyalties through the game much like a real sponsorship would work. You'd have to outright beat the pilot of the best team to be able to race under their flag, and that is exactly what happens in Fusion with the challenge levels. That part I like. So while it is a bit disappointing that there is a sever lack of balance between ships, I can understand the reasoning for it, and it works for the story and play advancement motif, and there is a little balance with the cost of ship upgrades. For the same amount of credits, you can max out a Feisar or upgrade a Piranaha to about 30%. So if you only used the amount of money needed to max out the Feisar for upgrading on each ship, there would be a balance.
    Last edited by mannjon; 20th July 2015 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #20
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    Still a maxed out Piranha or Xios is way more OP than a maxed out FEISAR or van-Über.

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