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Thread: No Barrel Rolls?

  1. #31
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    Damn the kickstarter window closed feck.

    cost of PC: approx £1500 (british pounds)

    I guess i'll just have to wait til official release... I really wanted a custom craft dammit. Missed oppo there. My shortsightedness, got me shot in the foot, with my own gun.

    I'm well sore there will be no BR's. But not as sore as seeing all the ships look exactly the same some variety would be nice.

  2. #32
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    I'm happy about no BR's and I'm a seasoned player

    As for the pilot matchmaking system online, I do believe R8 suggested that there would be different leagues available to play in online. I guess that's just related to speed class but it would be cool if you had to advance to those ranks and not just jump in to the fastest online league. I hope they implement something like that.

  3. #33
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    Aww no rolls stinkleroy? I thought you like the rolls!

    If there was a matchup system however I think it would placate a lot of the problems beginner pilots had. 100% of the negative reviews about HD involved the "steep learning curve." I personally liked Venom and Flash more than Rapier and Phantom because you had to be way more technical with lines and barrel rolls. The problem for me is that I feel bad when I'm in a Venom lobby, and a new pilot joins expecting an easier race because of the speed class and finds the competition more challenging than they expected. Phantom as one might expect, is typically for more seasoned players and I think most newer pilots just come to interpret Phantom as just that. To me personally, the speed classes have always represented different play styles as opposed to different levels of difficulty.

    Ideally, you could compete in any speed class with pilots similar in skill. That is to say that the difficulty shouldn't be weighted by class, rather the competition itself. I'd like to see a system where new pilots could compete with other new pilots on Phantom, and elite pilots could compete with other elite pilots on Venom. The whole construct of difficulty is objective, and as such I definitely think that some sort of balance would help to attract new pilots.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    I personally liked Venom and Flash more than Rapier and Phantom because you had to be way more technical with lines and barrel rolls.
    What do you mean by “way more technical”? You can as well be technical with barrel rolls (or other things) in Rapier and Phantom, and it probably requires to be even more technical, isn’t it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    I'd like to see a system where new pilots could compete with other new pilots on Phantom, and elite pilots could compete with other elite pilots on Venom. The whole construct of difficulty is objective, and as such I definitely think that some sort of balance would help to attract new pilots.
    I agree with the point that elite pilots can be seen in Venom just as much as in Phantom. However, this is a bit contradictory with your suggestion to attract new pilots. Because if “elite” pilots do their best in Venom, there’s no way a beginner pilot can catch up without saying to himself that the records look unreachable.

  5. #35
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    Nope I'm a BR hater mannjon, only do them to keep up with the competition but it breaks my thumb and ruins my line on far too many occasions

    I agree with both of the above posts to some extent, but I'm really hoping that FF doesn't pander to new players in an effort to become a popular franchise. I love how hard Wipeout games are and that in itself is the essence of the game and why it feels so good when you finally nail every corner on that evil track. I understand games have to make revenue but too many games bow to the corporate gods these days and it makes me really sad. Sorry a bit off topic.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vincoof View Post
    What do you mean by “way more technical”? You can as well be technical with barrel rolls (or other things) in Rapier and Phantom, and it probably requires to be even more technical, isn’t it?
    Nope... Yeldar proved that in phantom, BR's don't take precedence, lines do.

    In venom and flash - good luck with that method - you NEED to be a BR ace to get those top times.


    Quote Originally Posted by vincoof View Post
    I agree with the point that elite pilots can be seen in Venom just as much as in Phantom. However, this is a bit contradictory with your suggestion to attract new pilots. Because if “elite” pilots do their best in Venom, there’s no way a beginner pilot can catch up without saying to himself that the records look unreachable.
    Some Phantom pilots can't handle venom and flash. It's too "tricky" for them, and they complain of "weps" damage waaay too much.

    Point I'm making is that venom and flash require different disciplines and anticipations to phantom speed.

    I agree with mannjon, and I prefer the trickier speed classes, they keep things really interesting - if - there's good competition around.

  7. #37
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    Well Vincoof, that was kind of my point. The balancing method would need to be independent of speed classes. True enough that in a full venom lobby with myself, terra-wrists, and 6 other beginner pilots, I'm fairly certain who will place 3-8 every time. I'm like Terra in that I personally prefer an aerial acrobatic showdown on Flash or Venom as opposed to a high speed line battle. So the balancing should be based on pilot ability rather than speed class.

    Truth be told, if a record seems unreachable from a new pilot's perspective, that isn't balance at all. It may serve as a mark to determine one's growth though. I can even admit that when I first started playing, I thought those times were a bit unrealistic myself. But I got better. Fast too, because I had a time to beat.

    If there was a system that were to match players based on average time increments for tracks, I think that would be a good starting point. Essentially, you are a new pilot, you start out in an entry league. Then, if you get a top 20 time for a track, you would jump to the advanced league. There would be some obvious problems, and this system would require some thought, but the only real way to determine one's relative skill at multiplayer is to compare to other players' skills as well. But the basic idea is that you would be ranked on your racing ability instead of speed class (which we can agree is not really a distinction of difficulty rather a difference in play style).

    Maybe there is an ability to record and update ghosts at break points. Or maybe the devs can preprogram vs races in the game that "unlock" certain racing classes. Remember Beat Zico? There are only a handful of pilots that have done this. The ones that have definitely stand out above the rest. However, to get into the top 100 records for Anulpha Pass, there are only an elite few which are on another level altogether (it personally took me over 100 laps to get into the top 50, and I can tell when pilots have similar skills/devotion).

    So maybe there is a time limit that if you beat in certain skill brackets. You are allowed to compete in rookie online races from the start, novice online races later (this will be relatively easy about on par with a "skilled" skill level), then maybe an intermediate level (about on par with the "elite" difficulty), and advanced skill level (beat Zico difficulty), and Elite which would be for those that place within the top 500-1000 or so, or beat/tie with a certain time.

    I realize that this wouldn't be an ideal balance, but I think it would help. At anytime you could chose to play outside of your league up to a certain difficulty level (say advanced), but a warning should pop up to let you know ahead of time for potential ownage. Also I think that any players on a more advanced level should be allowed to join a game on a lower level by invitation from the host only (essentially no elite players should terrorize new players without specific invitation to do so) or with a handicap (like they start out in last, or have reduced ship energy) basically to even the odds.

    As an alternative method to the one above, you could easily make a couple of new race options, like having a difficulty range. So for example you could have a Venom race, and set the online difficulty to intermediate-advanced, or anyone welcome that would allow newer pilots to train against the pros. Or similarly, you could have a Phantom race that limits the difficulty to rookies only to get used to online play at a faster speed without the brutal competition typically at that level.

  8. #38
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    You know on second thoughts, I think the devs on FF have made the right choice for not including BR's.

    I'm such a BR junkie, but can learn to live without so long as the game provides ample opportunities to really take the learning curve to new heights. I'd like to see how they manage that - i'm sure they got a few tricks up their sleeves.

    But those ships though - will they all look the same? As in formula1? that's a down for me. I want ships of different shapes on the same circuit, I'd choose that over BR's.

    Regarding pilot skill matching, those are some good options mannjon, but they'd only really be realistic if the game has a larger following than the current wipEouts have. We're a small enough community and if that remains the case with FF, then pilot matching will only make it harder to get a game online.

    thoughts?

  9. #39
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    Well I agree that WO has a small but loyal fanbase. The idea with incorporating a matching system might help to attract more pilots.

    Assuming that there are the types of matching in place that I suggested, my assumption is that there would be more pilots available to make the system work. But realistically speaking, it would be prudent to have some mechanism in place for when there aren't that many pilots online. You might could have a list of sorts that would show pilot skill levels from some matching screen where you could chose to play different difficulty leagues based on few online pilots. For that reason, it might be a good idea to also include a free lobby where there are no restrictions in the event that no one is online.

    I guess the bottom line is that the matching should be marketed as a feature to attract new pilots, but not be the main mechanism for online play. I don't want the community to die out, but at the same time I do want to maintain a level of competitive play so it becomes a catch 22. There really isn't a perfect option because quite simply put, I fear futuristic racing as a genre is a dying breed. Unfortunately, the trend in games for the PS3, XBox 360, and even Wii U has been geared more for casual gamers. The thought processes from developers is that they can make more money off of games like Call of Duty (the epitome of modern gaming as far as I'm concerned) that caters to casual gamers and awards them meaningless trophies. That being said however, the market has begun to shift back towards consoles as many casual games are now being played on phones and tablets. Although we haven't really seen that trend much in XBox1 and PS4 yet, there are still some indications that the market is shifting back to a far less casual market.

    Bluntly put, many casual gamers find solace in Indie games in this current market which is posing some serious competition to the mainstream console market. Should the trend continue, I don't doubt the market will gradually shift back to less casual friendly gaming in the near future which will serve to separate the gap between the hardcore crowd vs the casual gamer market. You simply can't ignore the demand for more in depth gaming once the casual gamers stops buying $400 dollar systems to play indie games for 0.99 cents. At that point, I suspect that the older generation of gamers will stay true to their roots and continue to pay 59.99 for games with more in depth content.

    The problem is that developers currently have little incentive to create higher budget games that have higher production costs when they can make money off of cheaper production games. Some developers will make a choice to produce cheaper games, while others will make the higher budget titles. I for one will stop buying next gen systems if the indie trend continues, and I'm not alone either. I HATE indie games, because back when I played the NES and SNES, ALL the games were, by today's standard, indie games. Modern indie games seem to follow a trend of having sub par graphics and reused paradigms as the focus of a game as though they forgot all about earlier systems. One example is the FFVII re-release. There is still enough of a market to warrant Enix to produce the remake. People will gladly pay the money because the market is still there. I would like to think Wipeout as a series would be the same way.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by terra-wrists View Post
    Nope... Yeldar proved that in phantom, BR's don't take precedence, lines do.
    Not entirely true. I suffer enormously in those faster speed classes from not doing certain BR's in certain places. Lines and BR's are very important in phantom, Yeld mastered that

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