Explaining lag ramming and why YOU ALWAYS lose!

[ONlock]

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to how the online code actually works. Alot of people here probably understands what I'm about to explain very well, but for those who don't, I could try to help.

When you are racing online, you can see all the contenders as if they were actually racing beside you. However, it's not really that easy. What you see is where they WERE half-a-second ago, more or less depending on how much ping they have. This usually get's worse the farther away you live from the host, resulting in getting rammed harder.

What this means is, that when you collide into someone, you are not actually hitting them, but you are hitting a solid ghost of them, which is at this point, an immovable object. The person you hit won't neccesaily notice at all that you got rammed of the map by him/her.

Contrary, when other people see you ship, they also see where you were just a second ago. And if they hit you, you most likely won't feel it, because it's all happening BEHIND you now.

So, racing online isn't as easy to understand as you might initially think.

This is what my experience from playing online games a few years tell me. If anyone has anything to add, please do. And if it was hard to understand, I could probably make some illustrations.

[Amorbis]

The lag in HD is what makes me want an option to have permanent ghosting instead of the game guessing where everyone is. With rubbish internet such as mine you always seem to be at the mercy of your bandwidth.

Even if the other ships weren't like solid walls on the track it would be better. I don't like it when you get side swiped by, as you say, someone who is minding their own business and on their screen it doesn't appear as though you're there.

[ONlock]

I have been thinking about the same thing. Permanent ghosting would be nice, or at least have the option to have it as you say.

It would be a bit like trackmania, even though WipEout is soo much cooler!

[Kyonshi]

In his self-introduction thread, Haiku also explained very well the lag issues with WipEout HD, and then with pretty much any other online games as well.

We'll probably never see an update in WipEout HD to permit permanent racing ghosts, which is the best solution IMHO too, since SCEE don't give a f*** about maintaining an efficient team of developers such as Studio Liverpool. So until we see another WipEout game being born, we're stuck with this unfair crap that laggy collisions are.

Hell, yesterday i raced with BloodyHarry_89 and at some point, he was actually surfing on my ship, without losing speed while i was getting slowed down to stalemate. Wonderful.

[JABBERJAW]

I agree with all comments here for sure. Although I still want the weapons to hit the ghost ship. Still want the time trial head to head though.

[leungbok]

Good thread Onlock ! I agree Jabberjaw, TT online would rules !

[lunar]

Good explanation ONlock. What`s strange is that playing Pure online unnoficially through Kai the lag ramming problem is not as bad as through HD`s official channels. In HD every race is almost constant ramming but with Pure on Kai it`s only an occasional problem, so although I don`t know why the two games are different I don`t think HD has to be as bad as it is. No chance of any improvements to HD now though, I suppose.

[TarquinFarqhuar]

Thanks for that explanation ONlock. I first heard of LagRamming a couple of months ago, but being relatively new to online gaming, never really knew what it was.. You've cleared that up for me, cheers

[Moriarty79]

I understand, but with the weapons is the same? No, when your 'solid ghost' take a bomb, you take a bomb!
How the code works with weapons????

[Nutcase:259]

this explains why i think im neck a neck with someone going over the finish line but then i find out i came second by about a second.

i also am confused by how weapons work with this. seeing as if my 'solid ghost' ship is hit by a plasma but thats not really where i am on track (because if i read that right it means that to the person whos looking at my ship, im actually several milliseconds in the future!!! )

the above probably make no sense to me or you

[ONlock]

I understand what you are saying perfectly Nutcase:259. That is exactly how it is. He's not really hitting YOU, but rather your ghost from the past (lol). And what then happens is, the server sends a message to your client that you just got hit, then you feel the effects.

And yes Moriarty79. If your ghost is hit by a missile, or by rockets, you will take the punishment.. But with bombs it's different. They are stationary and will only detonate when you yourself actually hit them, not your ghost.

[Nutcase:259]

if my past ship meets up with my present ship will that create a time paradox ending time and space as we know it?
major respect to the devs who seem to understand these cosmic forces.

(on topic) i suppose it makes sense, is this the same for all games?

[ONlock]

Ha ha, good one Nutcase:259.

But this is how most games work online, where you have to interact with other players actively.

I have played some FPS games over the years, and you get the same problems there. For example, if you are very low on health and you have to escape the people shooting at you. Then you see a corner and you try to get around it. But when you actually get around the corner and your enemy is out of sight you still get killed, even if you couldn't see the enemy anymore.
Then you have to understand that they still can see you before you went past the corner, and they can still shoot you. That's why you want as low ping as possible when playing online. Makes the game more preditctable and fair.

[Aeroracer]

i hate lag and i hate ship collision.it is total rubbish.it puts me off phantom as you can touch a ship and lose most your energy.its a bug imo
they should fix this and put in ghost option or just turn off ship to ship damage.
nothing to do with lag but i would like an option where a weapon off race you can also turn off ship energy so you can purely race and go br crazy..

[Nutcase:259]

yes! that the single most annoying thing. that every ones heading into the same thing the speed/weapon pad and u get smashed to pieces or knocked off track!!!!!!!! and to find out ghosts are doing it is even more annoying

[JABBERJAW]

One thing I don't understand is why the lag has to affect your ship handling. It seems that your ship could control exactly the same as offline tt, and that you getting information from the other person should not affect that. I would rather get the opponents information later, if it meant i could actually drive correctly.

[Whizawk]

Does this mean when a rival rams you and turns into the wall, pushing you into it to slow you down as well, is all the work of a ghost?

[SaturnReturn]

I'm sure it's not always that way, but am also sure it very often is just a ghost. I've seen it by comparing videos with people. Just the other day I boosted at the end of Sebenco and rammed into yeldar's ship. I exploded on impact, but his video showed no contact between us whatsoever. It's insane.

It makes me wonder what happens when another ship sticks to our own though. That must be when you're actually in more or less the same place and the game is trying to make you both occupy the same place, or something.

[Task]

What you see is where they WERE half-a-second ago, more or less depending on how much ping they have.

Very close, but not quite.
It's not 'where they were a moment ago', it's 'where they were last time I knew' modified by 'their velocity (speed and direction) last time I knew'. These two factors are used to predict the location of all other players on the track. Two things make this innacurrate: Player inputs and time delays. If the player did something just after the last data set was sent, then the prediction is going to be off by whatever their action was.
The size of the time delays between data packages is the lag factor, the longer you have to wait for better data, the worse the prediction gets.

But yes, that's how it works.

There's a good implementation here: http://www.asyncracing.com/game.asp

[Nutcase:259]

This is all high tech sorcery. lag? Ping? Data Packages? Ghosts!?!?

What i want to know is what exactly ping means? as i dont have a degree in astro physics or practice witchcraft

to me. PING is just that word that some stupid pro golfers have written on there caps
http://www.kateconnick.com/postcards/pinghat.jpg