Doubles league again anyone?

[OBH]

Okay ive updated the "interested" list, so feel free to try to snap yourself up a partner

Going to be a while till it begins, but cant hurt to be prepared!

[DreamyElf]

i've never raced before in double league...
but the avalon experience was great so i guess this will be too!^^
so yeah sign me up OBH.

[SaturnReturn]

You considered a different points system to the standard HD one OBH? I was always a little unsure about the standard scoring system. Giving 8 points to first place means that a team could be made up of the best player who wins every time, and a complete n00b who barely avoids DNFs. That always seemed a bit wrong to me, i.e. that in a doubles/team game, a team could win solely on the efforts of one player. Imagine if that one player ghosted the whole time or something and never got rammed or missiles wouldn't lock onto them.

So yeah, I'd suggest a review of the points system for individual races. Perhaps something even as simple as 7 points for a win instead of 8. Feel free to ignore me though as I more than likely won't be taking part anyway, but though I'd throw that out there.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

Saturn makes a good point. I reckon the points for the finishing positions should be changed, as it'll only be the person who finishes 1st that counts.

[KGB]

Giving 8 points to first place means that a team could be made up of the best player who wins every time, and a complete n00b who barely avoids DNFs.

What are you trying to say?

[OBH]

Alright, its a point well made.

I think the best way to do it would be to ask each player to mark up the positions of each race, like so.

OBH           -  1  2  2  3  1  3  4  4
Amorbis       -  2  1  3  1  2  2  1  1
KGB           -  3  3  1  2  3  1  2  2
Yeldar        -  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3

(like the realistic positions ive made up? )

And then once the race has finished award points like this :

1st.  8 points
2nd.  6 points
3rd.  5 points
4th.  2 points

People happy with that? I think the sum of 2nd and 3rd should only be 1 point more than the sum of 1st and 4th personally, but of course im open to suggestions

[kaori]

It will be the game "don't be last", players who think they are slow won't enter in the competition. ("if I'm always last my teammate will hate me")

And if you create a new marking scheme for 2vs2, you should create an other barem for 2vs2vs2 & 2vs2vs2vs2.

But, the difference of points between two players only can be degressive (or no change) : higher ranked you are, higher are the differences.

It's the case in all racing competition : F1, WRC, Nascar, MotoGp, Motocross, V8 Supercars, SuperGT in Japan... & in the games too : F-Zéro GX, Gran Turismo, Modnation Racers... And in football/soccer too (win = 3 points, draw = 1 point, lose = 0 point)

So :

1. Original marking scheme of WipEout HD 8.6.5.4.3.2.1.0 is okay
2. 7.6.5.4.3.2.1.0 is okay too
3. Medals ranking (like Olympic Games) is okay (but special, it's like (for WipEout) 1st = 900 points, 2nd = 30 points, 3rd = 1 point)
4. 8.6.5.2 is not okay.

I prefer original barem, just 1st pilot have one point bonus, it's normal.

Imagine a 8-races tournament where it's always :

Team A 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Team B 2 3 2 3 2 3 2 3
Team B 3 2 3 2 3 2 3 2
Team A 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Hey pilots from Team B, you are always 2 behind the same guy and you are unable to catch him ? You were 2 vs 1 oh ! And you want to win the match ???

And in tourney with 3 or 4 teams, this "advantage" will tend to disappear

[KGB]

The race times between 1st and 4th in the doubles was never that great. 6 points seems a big difference for what could of been only a couple of seconds.

You could change it completely and go the other way with the points system. What if the lowest score wins. You get 1 point for first, 2 for second, 3 - third, 4 - forth. The one with the lowest score at the end wins. Easy to add up as well.

EDIT: Now I've read it back, it might be the greatest idea I ever had. Simple, fast, fair and fun.

[KIGO1987]

Right, enough of this poncy scoring system.

When are the fixed dates, that the doubles League going to resume?

[OBH]

@KIGO
No fixed date as of yet, had planned late august / early september (as it says on the 1st post )

@Kaori
I really like 2vs2vs2vs2 but it then means more organising. My plan was always to keep it 2vs2 with no more than about 6 races -- easy to organise, easy to race
I very much like the idea of having different points awarded based on your rank, though im not sure what method to use....??

@KGB

The race times between 1st and 4th in the doubles was never that great. 6 points seems a big difference for what could of been only a couple of seconds.

The problem is though, as mentioned, is with the current scoring system the grand total of 1st + 4th = 12 points, while 2nd and 3rd = 11 points.

As its meant to be a team event, it doesnt quite seem right (at least to me) that one player could win it for his team alone, so long as he continues to finish 1st.

We could make it really simple and have it :

1st  -  4 points
2nd  -  3 points
3rd  -  2 points
4th  -  1 point

This way 1st + 4th = 5, as well as 2nd + 3rd, a single position could mean the difference between winning and losing, and the points awarded are close enough to mean the match can shift very quickly from one team to another

Any thoughts???

EDIT:
Okay, so far i tihnk a fairer scoring system along with the Ranking Calculator used in the last doubles tournament is best.
If the ranking calculator confuses you, read the notes at the bottom

[kaori]

...

@Kaori
I really like 2vs2vs2vs2 but it then means more organising. My plan was always to keep it 2vs with no more than about 6 races -- easy to organise, easy to race

...

"2 vs 2" format is THE problem : too hard to find a rendezvous for 4 players. After two months, only 2 or 3 teams keep motivation for the competition.

It's why I think "don't plan meetings, just plan the date, & feel free to join"

Rendezvous this friday 19.00 GMT, join Xpand channels (PS3 textual chat that lot of wipers know), & look how many teams are presents.

One team is coming ? Sorry no tournament tonight.
2, 3, 4 teams are present ? Nice, let's go, have fun.
5 teams or more ? Ok, we do 2 pools and enjoy too.

Simply use ELO system from TorquedSoul for general ranking, no calendar to create, no imposition for teams (I believe 2 or 3 substitutes could be welcome).

[KGB]

Well you just robbed my idea Haydn but did it the other way round, did you not see it

[OBH]

I just ignored your crazy idea, and invented my own brilliant one

"2 vs 2" format is THE problem : too hard to find a rendezvous for 4 players. After two months, only 2 or 3 teams keep motivation for the competition.

This confuses me, we were able to rendezvous 8 players, sometimes from half way round the world for the WWC. I dont remember ever having trouble organising a doubles match before.

Another problem is that if we do decide to use the rankings calculator, I wouldnt know what do if every now and again we have a 2vs2vs2vs2 match...

EDIT:
Okay, i checked out the ELO calculator, and that is actually pretty good, we can simply put in multiple teams in there is a 2vs2vs2vs2 match.
I think were onto something....

i knew joining forces with kaori was a good diea

[kaori]

With Multiplayer Elo Calculator

exemple :

(after 2 tournaments)

[OBH]

I like it.
Is there a particular value your ELO ranking should start on? I was just going to use 1

edit:
Ive had an idea
Seeing as the ELO calculator needs no specific values (only finishing positions), im tempted to make the doubles league cater for all game modes!!
Example:
Week 1 - Weapons On
Week 2 - Eliminator
Week 3 - Zone Battle
Week 4 - Weapons Off

[kaori]

1500 is the medium value (and the start value)

Good idea to play eliminator & combat zone

[Amorbis]

I'm happy with the ELO system if we get to play eliminator, but I was never too good at Zone battle. I'm not so bothered about in race points, I'd stick to the scoring already in HD and then work out the ELO points afterwards to keep it simpler.

[KIGO1987]

Ive just given leadership of the Eliminator League to Haydn. Since he has some good ideas for it

So expect this to be included in this series of double events.

[SaturnReturn]

[*]8.6.5.2 is not okay.

Yeah, I agree. It means that you would only have to ensure the worst player comes last and then you win, without having to worry about the 1st place man. I think it's less balanced.

To be honest, I just think that that 1st and 4th should get the same as for 2nd and 3rd. That way it stays close and no-one is out of a chance from the beginning. Granted no-one will want to come last, but if it's spun the opposite way, then it means that there's always a chance that gaining that one extra place has an impact and both players make the same contribution.

Don't forget it's not just ability I'm talking about. There have been instances back in the day (not so much now), where some people seemed to get a much better boost off the line every time, and tonnes of other stuff that I've since forgotten about. Things like that would have less of an effect if 1&4 get the same points as 2&3.

Alternatively, just use some scoring system where a narrow defeat isn't as bad as a massive defeat. Maybe some of these scoring calculators do that already (don't really have time to check - soz).

As for organisation - I'm not sure any way of doing it will make it easier if it has to be arranged in advance. Too many people want to play but just don't have time or can't be bothered. So if there's say, two days a week where teams can meet up and just play then that could be good. You could have a squad of 8, but make it always doubles, but say no player can play two games in a row (or some other arbitrary rule like that), to share out the fun and also make it fairer. Then no one team could rely on the skill of one player too highly and you could probably ignore the other stuff above in the long term.

[OBH]

Problem im thinking of, is if its a squad of players we may as well all join the Xpand league.

Im not saying thats a bad thing but its not a doubles league anymore then, and ill just be treading on Xpands toes...

Cheers for making the point about the scoring system though Sat very insightful.