View Poll Results: What do you think should be done with the GREEN league?

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  • make all GREEN races 6 laps to avoid messing up leaderboards.

    7 15.91%
  • Close it down

    3 6.82%
  • Leave the GREEN league as it is

    19 43.18%
  • Not Bothered

    15 34.09%
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Thread: GREEN League : the bane of wipEout?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACE-FLO View Post
    A noob enters a weps on race - gets blown up 6 times and DNFs

    Same noob enters the GREEN race, and manages to finish for once - advantage? you tell me mate
    Weapons.

    Weapon races are for people who have hair on there scrotum's.

  2. #22
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    Lol, since the release of WOHD, i was witness of some players (good ones, sometimes members here) playing several times the same tracks in rooms of 2 players
    Strange, no ? So green races is maybe an easier way to reach top score, but it doesn't matter to me, it's still a luck pickup matter ! SL decides to make wipeout a fighter instead of a racer (new online mode eliminator but not the already existing time trial multiplayer -pure)
    Personally i don't like very much that fact. To make the game more balanced with hugely destructing and slowing weapons, is good for casual and beginners but frustrating for those who prefer speed and piloting skills !

    Sorry for my bad english !

  3. #23
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    rezatron covered me in some areas.
    i'll add:
    i dont care much about leaderboards, especially the multiplayer race times.
    as i said yesterday, except from skill which is the most important thing needed in wipeout, luck also plays a role in races.
    i mean if you play a game in a full lobby against players with same skills and weapons on, it is very difficult to make a good time.
    but then playing in a race with only 1 or 2 lower skilled players is a lot easier to make a great time, you only need clean start and lines,BRs and then some turbos...
    so yeah playing in a green race totally affect the leaderbords.
    i don't think that it's fair for some pilots who are interested in leaderboards and don't play in green races...
    it's like saying to them: if you can't beat us, join us.
    i don't agree with this.
    personally i dont care if someone has better times online.
    if i want to test my skills against other players i will choose a fast track, a balanced track and finally a technical one.
    of course i want the game to be played as it meant to be played:
    with default settings, weapons on and BR on.
    like kigo said yesterday the game is called WIPEOUT!

    just my thoughts!
    anyway, i know i'm rubbish compared to most zone pilots but at least i think i'm a fairplay pilot that plays for fun, winning or losing doesn't matter...

  4. #24
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    Its frustrating for everyone Leungbok. But that doesn't make it ok to make a GREEN league which allows for times to be reached using questionable methods. I find that weak.

    And anyway, If a good pilot can do SS chain BRs etc - then you cant tell me that same pilot can't dodge a well placed bomb or mine, or evade a rocket Nature of the game - you gonna get hit in a race - if you don't, well done! Let's see if the same happens next race...

    And yes, I also see a certain well known zoner who ranks 101, constantly repeat SOL2 fwd everytime he is hosting online that's fair though, and have no problem with it because he races with weapons on, and uses them too (yes, the reds and blues )

    Get a top time like that, and it's admirable - get a top time in GREEN league, and I frown upon it fact.

  5. #25
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    Green races couldn't really be prevented; i could easily go Green in a normal race. I would have to face weapon hazards of course, but i can decide to go Green anytime. I remember Yeldar saying he absorbs all weapons pick-ups in a race, even Bombs and Mines, to get faster time and win, hence making it almost a Green race.

    If we would prevent Green races from happening under the excuse that it denatures the core purpose of the game, Weapon-less races should be banned as well, since it also denatures the game being a combat racer.

    My guest if that we should build a new leaderboard dedicated exclusively for Green racers, but that would mean having the players register themselves their records but we couldn't really distinguish those times from the regular times on the in-game leaderboard. This situation could lead to a catch-22 situation if we think about it.

  6. #26
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    Kyonshi

    If in a 8 man race, one pilot decides to go green - be it at his/her behest - coz the others can still use weapons and slow green pilot down... that's still combat racing. If green pilot wins, great stuff - he won in a fully weapons hungry (red blue + green weps) environment. Full credit to said pilot...

    If people wanna just race without beig hit/slowed down - then just turn weps off... it's that simple - GREEN league is a blatant way to get faster times, unfairly... and you can all split hairs as much as you want here - I'll attempt to fuse the strands together again

    If you love the GREEN league that much peeps, make it 6 laps in the interest of fairness, as Stinkleroy suggested yesterday in the thread where 47 posts where deleted

  7. #27
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    I agree with everything Rezatron, OBH and Leungbok said

    multiplayer races will never be 100% fair - one player can start in 1st, another can start in 8th, and what formula is that based on? The same factor that decides which pickups each player gets: the luck of the draw.

    Even green races have elements that will not allow for a perfect time and are still going to be decided by pure luck. It's the same randomness in WO that's the only thing preventing it from being 100% fair. You can have skill with pickups, and while that's only a small portion of the race, you could lose out on that portion to another player through no fault of your own because of that factor.

    Green races allow for fast times to be made at a higher frequency than a typical SR, sure, but they aren't the only option of doing so, and even still, the final time will be decided by luck as well. I think the problem you're seeing is that the times are more reflective of the player's racing skill than a typical weapons on race, and I can see your point, but really, the multiplayer leaderboards will always be based on random elements - a good player may get a #1 time because they got lots of boosts, while a great player isn't in the top 10 yet because he hasn't seen any boosts on that track after 100 races.

    Nobody will have a great time in weapons off races due to there not being any turbos or other pickups to absorb, so they can't count, which leaves green races; which can have people bumping into one another and still have the potential of not giving you a single turbo for an entire race, and that's not different to: a normal race, where you could get 10 turbos and have a better result than what you've achieved in a green match. That's the luck of the draw.

    Green races IMO aren't about getting "fast times" - it's about being the fastest you can be, while playing against others. It's a unique opportunity to play without weapons slowing you down, and I think it's perfectly justified to play matches like that. Being as fast as you can be, to me, is the biggest draw of the game. Even if random elements still decide the result, green matches are fun to play due to the reasons I just described, and while it's gaming the system, I think it's not gaming it by enough for it to be considered a problem.
    Last edited by amplificated; 14th July 2010 at 12:52 PM.

  8. #28
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    Indeed Leung, speed and cornering skill ftw!

    Honestly Ace, you like to see players you can lap in a race? How is it fair to them for you to stay there and not let them finish a race? I'm slightly puzzled..

    Anyway, to get to the point of this thread. I personally am all pro the green league. Why? It's quite simple. I fly Icaras and hate weapons! Nah, silly joke and reference It's true in ways though. I love flying HD Icaras and also no-weapons races. But I also love turbo's to be faster and add the potential of more BR's. And I love shields to enhance/protect the fragile wings of the craft. But as Leung stated above, and I agree, I'd also like the multiplayer TT mode to be added to the game. Yes it would be much fairer that green races but alas it's the closest we can get in this game. Anyone who doesn't like to play it this way doesn't need to join in and be annoyed by it. Better yet, one can stay away and let us enjoy it while we can

    That's what this game is about, and the forum as well. Being friends, in speed!

    Now I dont think the green races are unfair. Sure, people can join in, only to find they can't keep up or are set back too much to come back to win. But that happens in any given mode! I remember races I've played last week with Asa and Cat and Chaos and Mad-Ice. They were all so thrilling! If races went well, without too many mistakes, we still all finished within 2 seconds from eachother. How is that an unfair advantage?

    The chance to make mistakes in lines doesn't disappear in any game mode. We all have to live with that fact. The new pilots are still learning how to line the tracks and manouevre the ships and may well use pilotassist, that's what it's for. If they can't handle them well enough to keep up in any speed class and see themselves being lapped, why complain about the non-existing option of cheating? We all know skill and speed are our basic cheating system, but there's more! The game has given us air-brakes, side-shift, barrel rolls, shields, autopilots, even weapons!

    The point is though: you don't need to use any of them, if you choose so. Granted, on the faster classes you will need air-brakes. If you want to be able to corner even faster, you will need side-shift. BR's can be added as well but still remain an option. One can even turn them off, just like pilot assist. And weapons. Given the option to use extensions to the piloting, one can choose not to use weapons someone picks up. They still are being picked up though! This means the items someone will find do not solely consist of green items. It's a system of chance. And taking or using those as succesful as one can.

    This also applies to races with weapons.

    Are chances to be faster enhanced by green races? I think so yes, it certainly appears so. But I've also noticed people to take different risks, to be faster. But not solely to reach the leader boards in top 20 or even top 10 ranks. One can do that in any mode given the right circumstances. Often enough even, I've seen pilots fly personal records in no-weapons races!

    Weapons races are just as fast as green races. When people dont gauge to blast the living beep out of others. Sadly a lot do exactly that. If the weapons randomization wasn't as bad as it's become in HD over time, this would probably be less of an issue. Some people just choose not to use the weapons and slow others down but to go for speed. Yes weapons can be used as tools to play mindgames in races. Without them it's still a mindgame. And I personally enjoy being faster more with good lines than when I've set someone back blowing them up or depleting their energy by 3 or more seconds.. Often the setback adds up to as much as 7 seconds.. Is that fair? I guess it is when a mistake in taking fast lines and cornering somewhere too close will let your craft meet with an obstacle that sends you flying off like a giant grasshopper..

    But calling it unfair or even a bane? It's a choice. People choose to play this game and maybe leave it too early to master it. That's also a choice. Some people are found in top 10 ranks very often. They choose to play this game a hell of a lot. But probably have simply grown to be very skilled. Playing it more often increases chances to be very lucky, especially when coupled with skill in being fast.

    Cheers!

    See you on the tracks and or in real life, let's be friends and fly high!

    AnE.

  9. #29
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    Maybe so Amp - but you leave out the most important detail in your post - paramount infact

    Here - I make it real simple, No one is getting shot in GREEN races, everyone absorbing weps and firing off Turboes and Autopilots, using shields to avoid the ram fest which no doubt ensues... a world apart from normal races... It obvioulsy gives you a faster time. I've raced a few GREEN races myself and was appalled at the times I was getting, totally unfair... I felt like a cheat for doing it. This reminds me, I gotta remove myslef from the GREEN league group. I don't wanna be a part of it anymore.

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    If you like weapons on races, what is the appeal of a good time? Isn't the best thing about weapons their chaotic nature that brings a bit more life to the game? Good times are a possibility, but I can't see them being a real draw for playing with weapons on. They're going to be different every race no matter how good you are with weapons...

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnErare View Post
    Indeed Leung, speed and cornering skill ftw!

    Honestly Ace, you like to see players you can lap in a race? How is it fair to them for you to stay there and not let them finish a race? I'm slightly puzzled..
    SO you should be - coz that's not me mate The 1 on 1 examples were given by ohters in this thread, I just used them as expamples to rebuttle their point. But if you beleive me to be a noob hunter (sheesh) then in my defence I can quite easily prove that false. When Uber-JKP came to HD Fury, he was still learning the ropes, and ended up in a room I was in. Yes, I won. But thenI made the room private and actually went through a long and intense training session with him, showed him some things I learnt, like BR spots and weapons tactics etc - now he's better than me awesome...

    Rest of your post, yes, You make a good point AnE but you say the GREEN league is not unfair - well for the thousands who don't know of its exixtence, try telling them that - coz I did and got an ear bashing, hence the creation of this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by amplificated View Post
    If you like weapons on races, what is the appeal of a good time? Isn't the best thing about weapons their chaotic nature that brings a bit more life to the game? Good times are a possibility, but I can't see them being a real draw for playing with weapons on. They're going to be different every race no matter how good you are with weapons...
    And that's the point - if you can manage to get a WR time like that - then you've proved something worth more than getting it in a GREEN race now right? What, you lot don't think it is possible? Andybob35 says it is and is willikng to challenge anyone and will do it in a Triakis no less
    Just shows that he thinks it is possible - and so do I... How do you think the recs were set in the first place when HD launched There was no GREEN league then was there???? humph - another hair joined together successfully
    Last edited by ACE-FLO; 14th July 2010 at 01:03 PM.

  12. #32
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    It really is like shiit on toast, but without the toast racing without weapons in Wipeout HD/Fury i gotta say.

    Right ive just got the Eliminator League ownership back after a bloody long absence. Vartazian the Virgin had control over the group... then he got banned. I might be tempted to start something up again given when i get my PS3 back and if its all working and all. There are quite a few people racing in eliminator rooms online now days, so here is an alternative to the Green League if anyone is interested.

    Anybody who wants to have fun with weapons ON be sure to check out the
    Eliminator League. New suggestions are welcomed

  13. #33
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    Ah gees this again....well I think everyone knows my feelings on this matter and that I think green races are key to my enjoyment of this game online now. In fact this is the way kanar and I always used to train for our doubles matches. I think that is indeed how the idea started to begin with.

    Those who seem to oppose this league are mentioning things like ‘fairness’. Now let me state here, in plain English – NOTHING about this game is fair. Nothing. Online MP races are a joke to me now, getting smashed around the track and slowed to a halt every 5 seconds is not my idea of a fair race, or even a race for that matter. I’ve achieved better times in weapons on races through sheer luck. A while ago I scored a no #10 slot on AP rev in a normal race because I recieved no less than 7 turbos in a 5 lap race. Is that fair? No. Is racing against people who clearly have no idea what they are doing fair? Most certainly not, yet you admit to doing it yourself. Frankly I’d rather take my chances in a green room full of skilled pilots than TT against some level 1 player who’s 15 seconds behind. That to me is not the way the game was supposed to be played either.

    Now to address the issue of ‘new players’...well when I first started racing seriously online there were times at the top of the leaderboard that I had no understanding of how they were achieved...shortcuts etc that I didn’t know about helping people to get faster times. However that didn’t stop me playing as it was never about that, it was about fun...and as you keep stating, that’s what the game is supposed to be. If new players don’t understand how things are achieved then they should practice more or check out youtube vids like the rest of us. Personally I don’t agree with shortcuts, but I have no problem with people using them if that’s what they want...it’s again all about personal choices.

    The point that everyone keeps missing here is that NO-ONE is playing these races to get faster times, really no-one is. It’s all about being able to go 5 laps without the constant stopping and starting that goes on now in online single races. I get so frustrated sometimes that I honestly feel like smashing something. This is not the way this game should be played either. I want to have fun, and the way online is now, I can’t do that anymore. I want to play with my friends and go FAST! I’ve never made a fantastic time in green races, I’ve only had a fantastic time. And that is the point of the green league, not to get better times. Frankly most of the people here have already mentioned that MP records don’t mean much to them, and that TT and SL are the only true measures of racing skill. I agree with that statement wholeheartedly and think that most people probably do.

    ACE I understand you came to the party late, and do not know how the game was pre Fury, but you must understand the disappointment of many people who played HD previously. Weapons slowed you down yes, but not like they do now. I never came across a last place bomb or set of mines...in fact doing comparisons between version 1.25 HD and the current version of Fury (we have both, one for offline, one for online), AnE and I have discovered that mines last waaaay longer than they used to, and that in general weapons were tinkered with to be more powerful in slowing down the opposition. That is a fact.

    I think you should understand that the green league isn’t some kind of cult looking to rule the MP boards, it’s just similar minded friends racing in speed like AnE has just mentioned. It’s all about fun and losing because of your own mistakes, not anyone elses. I agree with everything that OBH, Leung , AnE and Amp have said and hope that some part of you will understand why this league was born.

    There’s no supply without demand
    Last edited by stinkleroy; 14th July 2010 at 01:19 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACE-FLO View Post
    SO you should be - coz that's not me mate The 1 on 1 examples were given by ohters in this thread, I just used them as expamples to rebuttle their point. But if you beleive me to be a noob hunter (sheesh) then in my defence I can quite easily prove that false.
    No I don't believe or even think that, was just stating part of my opinion

    And if people want to think it's unfair or even cheating, maybe they should listen to Fyue

    Again, people don't need to join in or even like it.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rezatron View Post
    Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill...
    Will you marry me?



    Here goes yeldar on another vague, meandering ramble about how he thinks he knows so much about everything . Be prepared.

    It seems to me that some would chastise TGL for being a blatant way of achieving better times. As far as I'm aware it's actually because they find it fun more than anything else. Not everyone is a record-hoarding-rankings-whore like myself. Sure, it's nice to have a Top 200, 100, 50 etc... time, and getting such records may be catalysed by such things as TGL, but who's counting?

    Racing 1-on-1 with a n00b in a deliberate attempt to get a record is worse in my opinion. Poor chap just wants to race and some insanely fast PSN gremlin with an agenda leaves him in the dust wondering what happened. Alternatively (certain people still do this -_- ) make a private room with a friend who is willing to leave their PS3 and pwn records that way. That's worse than TGL.

    You say n00bs will be disheartened by the 'insane' mp times that they see? Well afaik (was certainly the case with me) n00bs tend to look at the TOP records on each track and I'll let you all know now that NONE (maybe one, not sure) of the current mp WRs were done in Green Races. However, several of them were done using the latter method from the paragraph above. All the rest were done racing under normal circumstances.
    You tell me which one has stuffed the records most?

    It doesn't even matter to be honest, there are no MP records that a that much further ahead of anyone else, someone just needs to nail a good race and there you go, new WR. If TGL was causing records that were faster than Time Trials, fine, maybe have a word or two. Fact is, it's been going for a while and no breaking of record tables has occured.

    We've had a Hardcore League before, that was awesome. No absorbing allowed
    "BUT WAIT, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO ABSORB NORMALLY SO THIS LEAGUE IS WRONG."
    "Oh . So we can't have a different kind of fun from time to time )"

    You can try to counter with the "You're buggering the record tables!" approach but until at least 5 WRs (not a lot at all considering how game-breaking it is) exist as a result of TGL I'm not going to count that as a valid argument...and I rule all so there

    You like racing normally, great. You like racing without absorbing, great. You like racing without shooting other people, great. You like all choosing the same ship for a race just for fun, great. You like racing with weapons off, great.

    Do what you like, enjoy the game, stop bitching til it's properly broken (ignore SL tables for the sake of my argument please )

    Just going for a bit of clarification

  16. #36
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    Stinkleroy speaks the truth.

    Personally I also enjoy plain old weapons races. When it starts to get too frustrating I simply leave... And quite frankly, if you pick up a game, look at leaderboards, think 'this is unpossible!!1!' and then leave, then maybe the game wasn't all that interesting for you in the first place?

    IMO people can play WO anyway they like - as long as they play.

    Edit: Oh, and Yeldar speaketh it too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace3cube View Post
    If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
    I stay away at the moment and i " lol "
    100% ditto

  18. #38
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    Oi, "who's bitching" LOL that would be me.

    Anyway, I've expressed my disdain for the league, and am leaving it here for now. I'm starting to see the same repetitive noise worded differently with every post - so before I do the same - I'll quit while I'm ahead

    Thanks you all for your time, and passion regarding this matter - was an awesome exercise in futility on my part - but fun rants all the same Love you all and thanks for being patient with me.

    Final note - I agree to disagree

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    Noise?

    Being ahead?

    Futility?

    Rants?

    I thought this was a poll with added thread to discuss opinions and views And somewhere a way to advertise another league in off-topic mode. But mostly people expressing their opinions and some using other's posts to show they agree or disagree.

    Ace, you haven't won or left early to prevent getting cornered or just to post your flag on the summit. I think people will save that option for the tracks to be decided at ;D
    Last edited by AnErare; 14th July 2010 at 02:16 PM. Reason: spelting mistakes

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    Just a semi off-topic.

    this game is frustrating, for newbies. REALLY frustating. I still have enormous problems with the game due to BRs mechanic (i'l never adapt to it), but i think that the GL is not the problem. After many months i've managed to stay in 5 seconds to good players in almost all the tracks, but there's a few ones were i, still today, after countless training get 12 seconds off!

    What the noobs need is a skill pairing method in the rooms, so that they can get to grow at their pace and hone their skills. And se each other grow.

    As a last note, if the races were weaponless i think i would have never battled vartazian, yeldar, shawnfrecle, sinus and the many unbeatable experts around here. And i would have lost LOTS of fun!

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