View Poll Results: What do you think should be done with the GREEN league?

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  • make all GREEN races 6 laps to avoid messing up leaderboards.

    7 15.91%
  • Close it down

    3 6.82%
  • Leave the GREEN league as it is

    19 43.18%
  • Not Bothered

    15 34.09%
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Thread: GREEN League : the bane of wipEout?

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  1. #1
    ACE-FLO's Avatar
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    Default GREEN League : the bane of wipEout?

    Is the GREEN League a fair racing league? Not in my book!

    Any race where all weapons are absorbed except for the GREEN weapons (autopilot / turbo /shield) is unfair - because the there is no chance of slowing down the opposition, or getting shot/bombed - and a very minute chance of blowing up and an unfairly increased chance of getting much much better times (even record times)... This is not wipEout as it was intended and leads to comporomised leaderboards times... We all want more people to play wipEout right? well they'll just give up after a week when they realise that the top times were impossible to achieve and be put off from the game forever - I've had a few complaints about it myself!

    We've had problems on WZ before regarding unfairly achieved times, take the Pulse era when CFW and Jaytech were the bane of the format, everyone caused an uproar back then - I rememeber it clearly! This is no different - in fact it is worse, because it is not just an individual but an entire league of pilots who are involved.

    Did you guys not think that this GREEN league will lead to controversy?

    47 posts were deleted from a precious thread created by OBH, because they were deemed off topic by SaturnReturn.

    I invite you all here to express your opinions on the fairness of the GREEN league, what options we have to make it fair, etc...

    There's also a poll option, please use it!

    EDIT: I voted "make it 6 laps"
    Last edited by ACE-FLO; 14th July 2010 at 11:19 AM.

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    Ace, Buddy, you know I like you and I respect you... I can't forget the time we were racing almost every evening on Pulse! Buuuuttt, I could copy and paste my beloved post from yesterday... but I'm not pissed off anymore, and don't want to fight with you mate

    Let's take the wise idea expressed by MSSA :
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmadSmartAlex
    In terms of "fairness", how are these "green races" any different to just playing a normal race against one random beginner to try for a record? After the first few seconds, it's basically the same thing...
    Think about it, when Yeldar (sorry mate, it's not against you, I choose you 'cause you're the fastest... I'd really prefer put my nickname instead ) is racing with average pilots, like me (unfortunately) ... after 5 seconds I don't see him anymore, he has all the weapon pads, I can't shoot at him... it's wide open for a WR.

    From yesterday's post : I really appreciate the idea of Ace3Cube, he proposed the Green League, forced nobody to join (even if we tried to recruit Pirhapac). The goal is to have a new experience with Wipeout (which is getting old... yeah, deal with it). And then some people complain AGAIN with the ranking board.
    Please remember that Wipeout is a GAME... the goal is to get FUN while PLAYING.

    For what it takes, I like GL and I'm not an Icaras player (well occasionaly but I'm even faster with my Ag-S). If you wonder why, it's not for ranking, it's not for times, but for two reasons :
    - a different experience, it's good to change sometime
    - I'm always last, so eating tons of mines and bombs... and this is sssssssssssssoooooooo frustrating !!!!! With GL, I'm still last but at least I can race properly!

    PS : I don't put back the funny images, this could lead to off topic.

    PS 2 : please please please Jasmin, do not write "Icarus" again, I'm about to cry each time I see that? (ps : Icaras)

    EDIT : of course, I vote to leave GL in peace man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temet View Post
    Think about it, when Yeldar (sorry mate, it's not against you, I choose you 'cause you're the fastest... I'd really prefer put my nickname instead ) is racing with average pilots, like me (unfortunately) ... after 5 seconds I don't see him anymore, he has all the weapon pads, I can't shoot at him... it's wide open for a WR.
    This.

    Why do you get so worked up about leaderboards? They have been misleading at best since pretty much always and we all should have a pretty clear idea on what level we are just by racing each other. We don't need leaderboards for that. On any given sunday, the top 50 players will beat each other no matter who is placed where at the leaderboards.

    If you're afraid the poor, poor newcomers are being scared off by silly MP times, how do you think they'll react when they fire up SL/TT? Even discounting all the bogus laps/TTs how is a newcomer ever going to beat a yeldar/pirha/whoever TT? I think you give the unwashed masses way to little credit - if they think the game is fun for them, they'll play and, maybe, eventually end up here.

    I'm average at the best of times, but still keep coming back to WOHD, simply because I think its fun. Maybe I'm being naive, but I like to think that's why most of us play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACE-FLO View Post
    unfair - because the there is no chance of slowing down the opposition
    I guess you should improve your own time. Not slow down the opposition. Be faster.

    And there's also a strategy which isn't in TT & SL. I mean, speedpad or pick up... Stealing pick up for the contenders... Passing other players on first lap with speed pads...

    I think personally that we must be more involved in the strategy when we play Green League that classic races ; because of quakes etc...

    One error and you're down. > Most of players refuse that, because the skills aren't here.

    I agree, the first lap is the most important. And when there are eight players, it could be difficult to win when you're last on the departure lougne.

    But when you're four as at the last green league, there's no problem.

    I see best players win Green Races. So... ? What's wrong ?

    Best players win. The others lose. Accept it. Do not cry.



    P.S.: The 'you' isn't for you Ace-Flo, of course. It's for everyone.

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    If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
    I stay away at the moment and i " lol "

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    In the thread OBH created there where heaps of points brought up. Bullshit that 47 posts where deleted, most of them where on topic and related to Icaras pilots out there since alot of them are Green League racers. The only off topic items on that thread where the funny picture Temet and I posted on the thread. All in all the posts that where deleted by Chris Harvey / SaturnReturn brought up some good points. Like the record tables being wrecked since the game is being played in a manner that it wasnt suppose to. Like i said before in the posts that where deleted the record times acquired in Green League races stand out like oil on water. Green League race acquired records need to be in a record table of there own so not to get confused over legit records acquired in online races.

    Points brought up like doing 6lap races over 5lap races so the records are not merged is a start. But really those records are a cheap way to get your name recognized in the game, those records need to be in a table of there own then all will be good. As Temet said "that Wipeout is a GAME... the goal is to get FUN while PLAYING." which pretty much how the game should be recognized but the creation of the Green League has brought up some points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIGO1987 View Post
    All in all the posts that where deleted by Chris Harvey / SaturnReturn brought up some good points.
    Please call me SaturnReturn. Until you posted my full name a lot of people didn't know it. I don't have an issue with it if they do, but I think it's my choice whether people know my full name or not.
    Thanks

    On topic - I think it's up to individuals how they play the game. I don't really like green races that much because I feel it becomes all about the turbo. But I find the best solution to that, for me at least, is to just not play green races. It's worked out pretty well so far. So I voted 'not bothered'.

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    It might of been brought up already as I have not read all of this, but if people really want to race without weapons ruining the game why don't they race with weapons turned off - job sorted! I know it sounds out there, but you never know it might just catch on

    If I could be bothered I would vote for 'not bothered'

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    People found out about your name when you became moderator here late last year, not sure what thread it was on. But i can refer to you as just SaturnReturn, SR, or just Chris minus the full name if you like me too.

    That is a bloody good point KGB acutally. But the damage has been done on the record tables and there isnt much of a Studio Liverpool to clean it up like they did back when they where at full staff power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace3cube View Post
    If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
    I stay away at the moment and i " lol "
    100% ditto

  11. #11
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    @ Fyue, no offense taken - I started this thread because when GRREN league first got established - you'll see that I though it was a great idea. Not anymore though - and as for you saying become faster, I've raced you and you already know how fast I am I play weapons races and weps off races, not an unfair compromise of the two

    I got this from ANdybob35 last night bia PSN - he told me I could quote him so here it is...

    the 6 laps ideal is cool, though pointlessly boring *nudge-fest* indures, but for those 'purists' its there cup of tea. but wen u initaily hear green races, it can only be for gain, i dont buy 'weapons slow me down' or similar BS, if u can double br and do shortcuts, U CAN ****ING AVOID A MINE!! just side-shift or heaven forbid, devait from the racing line xDDDD
    @Temet whatever made you think we were arguing my drear friend? A debate is what we had, you're still a star in my eyes

    I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, this is no ACE-FLO club I want to hear the opinions of others regarding this touchy matter and maybe come to some fair solution in the interest of this game we all love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace3cube View Post
    If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
    I stay away at the moment and i " lol "
    I guess the noob bomb on lap 5 is a spanner in the works in that plan - unless you manage to avoid it

  12. #12
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    Top multiplayer times require skill and lucky pickups regardless of predetermined rules between pilots. This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time. The same can be achieved if you get a pole position against not so good opposition, separate from the pack early with a boost and then proceed to do an "online time trial" with a few extra turbo pickups to boot. Of course you must know what you're doing (via Time Trial) to get a top MP time regardless of pickups...

    Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO. Not only do they largely depend on pickups/luck/opposition, but also online playtime. I've notice alot of my MP Flash times being eclipsed lately but then I realize they are by players who play Flash online almost exclusively and are 20-25 ranks higher than me meaning they've had hundreds of more races on each track at that speed.

    So my point is... it doesn't really matter. Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill (and not just Phantom yeah).

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    It's not about a measure of skill - I can confidently say all WZ members are better than the average pilot out there anyway...

    What it is about, is the interest in fairness.

    FYUE makes a point that he can go into a 2 man race and get a top time - ok fine, that's the name of the game though. But compromise its' intended format by mixing two different game modes Thats' un infair way of getting good times and you all know it

    Gamers who are new to wipEout HD Fury will see those records up on the multiplayer leaderbaords and get put off by the game. More wipers are playing this game attests to the fact that the game is popular, and this compromises its' popularity amongst the fresh new talent which is gracing the HD servers since Playstaton Plus . I say this because I have been questined by some of these new pilots as to how the top times are acheived, to which I always reply - SL, TT, Practice practice practice, offline/ online etc... but when they in turn ask me how GREEN league is fair - what do I say to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rezatron View Post
    Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO
    I play ONLINE only - like many on my PSN friends list... I'm the opposite, I find SL and TT boring and get distracted too easily Online keeps me focused on the game though...
    Last edited by ACE-FLO; 14th July 2010 at 10:34 AM.

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    I hate GREEN League, I know i'm not a good pilot but Being not consistant rocks! It means very rarely I can just go crazy and end up performing really well, or at least I THINK i am but judging by the top times it doesn't matter the practically flawless runs because you damn green league racers are just to0 fast.

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    You know, Green League is "just" an "official" League created to make it possible for people who want to race "no weapon but BR" races.
    I mean "official", because I'm been playing several times with Tug and Leungbok for example when we played without firing weapons, or rarely. It was existing before, this is just a mean to get pilots all together.

    PS : be happy "Pirhapac" is not playing often online... you'd see some new WR ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rezatron View Post
    Top multiplayer times require skill and lucky pickups regardless of predetermined rules between pilots. This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time. The same can be achieved if you get a pole position against not so good opposition, separate from the pack early with a boost and then proceed to do an "online time trial" with a few extra turbo pickups to boot. Of course you must know what you're doing (via Time Trial) to get a top MP time regardless of pickups...

    Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO. Not only do they largely depend on pickups/luck/opposition, but also online playtime. I've notice alot of my MP Flash times being eclipsed lately but then I realize they are by players who play Flash online almost exclusively and are 20-25 ranks higher than me meaning they've had hundreds of more races on each track at that speed.

    So my point is... it doesn't really matter. Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill (and not just Phantom yeah).
    Damn ! I totally agree with that !
    You see ? when you want !

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    I see we're starting today where yesterday left off.......
    Im going to say my piece then quickly leave it think.

    • First and foremost, i think "the bane of wipeout" is a massive, massive overstatement.
    • 2nd, asking the people who enjoy this league to put it on 6 laps isnt really fair, as your not going to say 'all players that race 1-on-1 with a noob must put it on 6 laps also' are you?
    • Clearly different people enjoy different kinds of competition, its just a touchy subject because all our competitions are user made, so all times go into the multiplayer races board regardless of its set-up.
    • I doubt anyone would have a problem whatsoever with any of this if players could chose what weapons were on offer in the lobby, and if SL made a leaderboard that could be filtered to view only times using a set weapon list.
    • Last but certainly not least, the leaderboards have barely worked for months anway. A couple of top 3 times ive made are yet to be displayed, and apparently Ive never raced on Anulpha Pass reverse since ive had the internet back still an auricom time i set from way back when.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by leungbok View Post
    Damn ! I totally agree with that !
    You see ? when you want !
    So you agree with the following also?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rezatron View Post
    This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time
    OBH, what other user made league gives us the advantage to get faster racing times? exactly...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rezatron View Post
    Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill...
    Will you marry me?



    Here goes yeldar on another vague, meandering ramble about how he thinks he knows so much about everything . Be prepared.

    It seems to me that some would chastise TGL for being a blatant way of achieving better times. As far as I'm aware it's actually because they find it fun more than anything else. Not everyone is a record-hoarding-rankings-whore like myself. Sure, it's nice to have a Top 200, 100, 50 etc... time, and getting such records may be catalysed by such things as TGL, but who's counting?

    Racing 1-on-1 with a n00b in a deliberate attempt to get a record is worse in my opinion. Poor chap just wants to race and some insanely fast PSN gremlin with an agenda leaves him in the dust wondering what happened. Alternatively (certain people still do this -_- ) make a private room with a friend who is willing to leave their PS3 and pwn records that way. That's worse than TGL.

    You say n00bs will be disheartened by the 'insane' mp times that they see? Well afaik (was certainly the case with me) n00bs tend to look at the TOP records on each track and I'll let you all know now that NONE (maybe one, not sure) of the current mp WRs were done in Green Races. However, several of them were done using the latter method from the paragraph above. All the rest were done racing under normal circumstances.
    You tell me which one has stuffed the records most?

    It doesn't even matter to be honest, there are no MP records that a that much further ahead of anyone else, someone just needs to nail a good race and there you go, new WR. If TGL was causing records that were faster than Time Trials, fine, maybe have a word or two. Fact is, it's been going for a while and no breaking of record tables has occured.

    We've had a Hardcore League before, that was awesome. No absorbing allowed
    "BUT WAIT, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO ABSORB NORMALLY SO THIS LEAGUE IS WRONG."
    "Oh . So we can't have a different kind of fun from time to time )"

    You can try to counter with the "You're buggering the record tables!" approach but until at least 5 WRs (not a lot at all considering how game-breaking it is) exist as a result of TGL I'm not going to count that as a valid argument...and I rule all so there

    You like racing normally, great. You like racing without absorbing, great. You like racing without shooting other people, great. You like all choosing the same ship for a race just for fun, great. You like racing with weapons off, great.

    Do what you like, enjoy the game, stop bitching til it's properly broken (ignore SL tables for the sake of my argument please )

    Just going for a bit of clarification

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    I really wish I could read through all the pages of this thread, but 6 pages in the span of a day is just too much for me.

    I voted 6 laps

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