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Thread: Keyboard control?

  1. #11
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    If you're right handed, then I agree analog stick is not the way to play Wipeout
    HD, because you have to use the left stick, barrel rolls on it etc.

    I agree with PS, just use the d-pad and L1/R1, give it some time, and you'll see
    it actually works great!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
    ... What's so bad about the keyboard/mouse combination that PC games have "suffered from it", and that it's "a step backward"? ...
    Quote Originally Posted by rdmx View Post
    ... Frankly I don't see why K+B support is a step backward. ... An average PC gamer with a keyboard+mouse setup could wipe the floor with any 'pro' console fps gamer especially if they have no auto aim to rely on. It's a much more precise setup.
    I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you
    would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an
    afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly,
    there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset
    of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my
    life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.

    Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry).
    If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have
    gone this way with the 360 and PS3. But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most
    games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If
    it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M
    as well. But that's just not the case. Sure, K+M is more accurate for some
    games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it
    takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be
    applied at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdmx View Post
    The uptake of 3d gaming on console isn't going to be too great either when you consider that you need to buy a new TV to take advantage of it. People have just started the uptake of highdef screens, how many are going to race out to buy 3d capable hardware?
    My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy
    a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a
    3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows.
    Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your
    graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no'
    standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the
    story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an
    essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move,
    obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension
    while viewing stuff in 3-D.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdmx View Post
    ... This video is why move/natal is a mere novelty at best:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT1BHz7Ck1o
    Yeah, I know that one. It's the latest video / gif on the web. xD

    Anyhow. Whether Natal or PS Move will be successful or not depends on the
    developers. Personally, I think the PS Move is underestimated due to all
    the weak Wiimote games. The PS Move has a lot more potential. And Sony has
    already said to the developers; "If it doesn't work on the Wii, it won't work
    on PS3 either. So don't blame us if your game doesn't sell!".

    However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward
    within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things
    of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even
    games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on
    the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield
    any benefits.
    Last edited by ProblemSolver; 8th June 2010 at 05:39 PM. Reason: spell

  3. #13
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    This adapter requires a PS/2 keyboard, which can be seen in the video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNDGE239EoY

    It accepts a keyboard and a mouse, which you can assign to different buttons and axises.

  4. #14
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    connovar, I wouldn't use a keyboard/mouse because I don't like them much, but the barrel roll would be fast as heck considering you fingers are on both buttons at the same time, and you don't have to make the dpad travel accross the middle. Also, if you are used to it pitch would be great as well, very fast.

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    I apologize in advance for the extensive quoting, but it's the only way that I can make all of these points simultaneously without degenerating into incoherence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly, there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.
    But nobody even said that. I don't want a keyboard for Ratchet and Clank; I want it for Wipeout. That's why I made the thread on a Wipeout forum, specifically mentioning a Wipeout game. And it's no secret that I prefer keyboard control for the other games in the series - I could list several reasons here for why it would be better in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry). If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have gone this way with the 360 and PS3.
    You know why they didn't? Because they're consoles.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M as well. But that's just not the case.
    Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Sure, K+M is more accurate for some games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be applied at the same time.
    Right, so the challenge shouldn't be in the game itself; it should be in trying to control it. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a 3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows. Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no' standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move, obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension while viewing stuff in 3-D.
    All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. As it is (and most likely will be until we develop the technology to upload our minds into the games themselves), what you call "3-D gaming" is just the same old stuff that we've had since Battlezone back in the '70s, but forcing the player to mime every action. How is that more fun or immersive? If anything, it's less immersive, as the complete absence of tactile feedback breaks any possible suspension of disbelief.

    So, yeah, Natal and its ilk are only good for stuff that I wouldn't consider playing in the first place. The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield any benefits.
    Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. By the way, Metal Gear Solid 4 is a continuation of a series that started out on the MSX (an '80s Japanese PC), Uncharted is essentially a 3D version of Flashback, which was an Amiga game, Wipeout has its roots in Powerdrome on the Atari ST (and let's not forget that the first two installments of the series were released on the PC and Macintosh), and the idea that there's no PC equivalent of Gran Turismo is beyond preposterous.
    Last edited by Dan Locke; 9th June 2010 at 12:00 AM.

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
    ... Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".
    I'm not sure whether the vast majority plays CoD on the PC. Anyway, that's
    not the point. The point is that K+M isn't as attractive on a console as it
    is on the PC, because there are many different types of games on consoles
    not playing well with K+M. And it seems like that supporting K+M isn't of
    any real demand on consoles either, since a shooter can also been played
    well with a controller. Sure, aiming is faster and more precise with K+M
    but on a console each and everyone has the same input device. And who said
    that a shooter can't be played well with a controller? Most of the advantages
    of a K+M setup lead to unrealistic behavior; in reality you just can't aim,
    turn, and look around as fast as you want. But who said that a shooter needs
    to be any realistic? Well, I played KZ2 and MGO (a lot) online, and I have
    to say that I do like the controls, even if I can't hit the left eye of an
    opponent every time. These games play fine with a controller, no need for
    K+M, honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
    All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. ...
    Don't take my "3rd dimension" literally. Thing is, using a 3-D input device
    in conjunction with a 3-D display will enhance your 3-D immersion / sensation.
    Let's talk about Holodecks and the Matrix about 50 years from now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
    ... The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.) ...
    I think here lies your misconception. The PS Move isn't a replacement for
    mouse control. It seems like that you are underestimating the issue of
    navigating within a (stereoscopic) 3-D scene, perspective projected onto the
    screen, with a 2D input device that lives on the projected screen. Your
    argument leads me to the conclusion that you never tried it at all. I did 3-D
    visualization of fluid simulations on a 3-D PowerWall using a 3-D input device
    making it possible to track and to emit particles at precise spatial
    locations. Watching and navigating all the stuff in 3-D is a completely
    different thing than anything what is 3D or 2D. A 2D mouse doesn't help the
    slightest. If developers build suitable games that make good use of the
    spatiality the PS Move has to offer, then you will see that the PS Move
    isn't just a "barely-passable replacements for mouse control". Quite the
    contrary is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Locke View Post
    ... Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. ...
    The discussion was / is whether K+M would be better or not. And I said; no,
    it isn't. And I extended the discussion saying that K+M isn't really necessary.
    And I also said that K+M focused games on the PC haven't lead to many great
    games within the last years. And this was the reason I listed some great PS3
    games, games that don't feel like they're missing a keyboard or a mouse.

    And I make a further claim. I claim that you won't be any faster using a
    keyboard against anyone in the top10 or even top20 who know how to treat the
    d-pad and analog stick, respectively, not under normal racing conditions nor
    under ZONE. From ZONE I can tell you that the analog stick is irreplaceable
    for some turns / tracks. No matter how good one can control the d-pad, some
    turns can't be managed with the d-pad at very high speed, nor would be a
    keyboard of any help. Anyway. How many hours have you played WipEout HD using
    the d-pad & L1/R1 to claim that the DS3 is not suited for WipEout HD? And why
    do you think you would be "better off using a keyboard"? How do you measure
    'better'? What's the metric? If it just applies to you, no problem. But if
    you speak in general terms, then I hope you can actually proof it.

    But don't get me wrong, I don't want you to distract from trying to play
    WipEout HD with a keyboard and having fun with it. I would even try it myself
    just for the sake of it. Anyhow, my statement simply is that K+M isn't the
    Holy Grail as many PC gamers do believe it is. From my perspective; you just
    haven't given the d-pad & L1/R1 a serious try. And switching over saying that
    a keyboard would be better for WipEout HD, without given any proof, is pretty
    much prone to generate some long discussions nobody wants to read. xD
    Last edited by ProblemSolver; 9th June 2010 at 11:03 PM.

  8. #18
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    I think both have their legit arguments. If you have ever seriously played a fps with a keyboard mouse, the analog controls just do not cut it. They are way too inaccurate once you are used to that. For wipeout hd/pure/pulse, the game was made to be played fairly equally between analog or digital control, not like the older games, where the negcon ruled because of it's smooth turning. There should be virtually no difference between the dpad vs the keyboard, except for the quick barrel rolls, so if you are fast enough with the dpad, then they are equal. The keyboard is a slightly faster input device, especially if you are used to it, and may give you a slight advantage. However, for lots of games, the analog stick is required to hit precise angles that a keyboard/dpad just won't, or you may need to run slow, and the digital inputs just do not give you that opportunity.

    I would say though that the keyboard, is a far superior controller to the dpad for the old wipeout games, with pitch being separate from the steering.

    In reality, it seems that the ds3 controller or any controller of it's ilk are the best controllers for a wide variety of games, but for any individual game itself, there is probably a different type of controller that is best for that "specific" game. Be it negcons, wheels, joysticks, keyboard/mouse, wiimote, ect.

  9. #19
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    I don't see the point in switching to keyboard. You can't really measure how good you are without comparing to other people. To compare to others you have to try and keep as much constant as possible. If the keyboard turned out to be superior and you improve your times with it, then people can easily dismiss those times. You wouldn't know how much of the performance improvement was the keyboard and how much was practice. Also, if you ever went to a convention then the chances of a keyboard being legit would be slim, I would have thought. (I think others have kind of said this too and feel I may have said this all before in a different thread somewhere ).

    There are advantages to practising with different controls though. It teaches you different things. There are a lot of barrel rolls where I've found it has helped immensely to learn exactly what to do with pitch by trying it with both stick and d-pad. The d-pad can also take its toll on your hands more than the stick, or so I've found, so I try to warm-up with stick when doing TT and then go for gold with d-pad. So maybe keyboard could also teach you new things, but if you want to compete on an even playing field then I agree with what has been said before about using the same controller as everyone else.

    Finally, I use d-pad and a fair few decent pilots do too, but the pilots who I consider the very best in TT and online all use stick (to my knowledge).

    EDIT: Actually, just remembered one uses d-pad, but at least 80% use stick.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    I'm not sure whether the vast majority plays CoD on the PC. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that K+M isn't as attractive on a console as it is on the PC, because there are many different types of games on consoles not playing well with K+M.
    NOBODY EVEN MADE THAT "POINT". Don't you get it? I only want it for Wipeout HD!

    Enough with the stupid "Keyboards and mice aren't the best possible input devices in every situation, therefore, it's silly to use them" red herring.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And it seems like that supporting K+M isn't of any real demand on consoles either, since a shooter can also been played well with a controller.
    Not half as well as with a mouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Sure, aiming is faster and more precise with K+M but on a console each and everyone has the same input device.
    And people don't have the same input device on PCs? By the way, you can plug a DualShock 3 into your PC like a gamepad; I use it all the time for Spyro the Dragon and Super Mario 64.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And who said that a shooter can't be played well with a controller? Most of the advantages of a K+M setup lead to unrealistic behavior; in reality you just can't aim, turn, and look around as fast as you want.
    If you care about realism, mouse control is the least of your worries. Also, how is the fact that gamepads are harder to use a point in their favor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    But who said that a shooter needs to be any realistic? Well, I played KZ2 and MGO (a lot) online, and I have
    to say that I do like the controls, even if I can't hit the left eye of an
    opponent every time.
    You could if you had a mouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    These games play fine with a controller, no need for K+M, honestly.
    So, we've moved from "Keyboards are only good for a few kinds of games" to "Keyboards are only good for FPS games" to "Keyboards aren't even good for FPS games". How the heck does that work?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Don't take my "3rd dimension" literally. Thing is, using a 3-D input device in conjunction with a 3-D display will enhance your 3-D immersion / sensation.
    But there's no "sensation" when my hand moves right through stuff with no resistance. 3D works for movies because you don't actually have to interact with them. Speaking from experience, though, it isn't half as good for games as the hype makes it out to be.

    (Said experience comes from a tech demo that I played around with at a museum. I was impressed by the technology, but I was hardly interested in the application.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    I think here lies your misconception. The PS Move isn't a replacement for mouse control.
    Really? All that I've ever seen the Wii remote used well for is pointing at various objects on the screen. Otherwise, it's just gimmicky miming with the dual detriments of being fiddly to use and making you look like an idiot while you play with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    It seems like that you are underestimating the issue of navigating within a (stereoscopic) 3-D scene, perspective projected onto the screen, with a 2D input device that lives on the projected screen. Your argument leads me to the conclusion that you never tried it at all. I did 3-D visualization of fluid simulations on a 3-D PowerWall using a 3-D input device making it possible to track and to emit particles at precise spatial
    locations.
    Well, that's all fine and dandy when you get to see particles swirling around your arm, but I can't see it having any appreciable benefit for navigation in games.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Watching and navigating all the stuff in 3-D is a completely different thing than anything what is 3D or 2D. A 2D mouse doesn't help the slightest. If developers build suitable games that make good use of the spatiality the PS Move has to offer, then you will see that the PS Move isn't just a "barely-passable replacements for mouse control". Quite the contrary is the case.
    I hope that you're right. As of yet, though, I still haven't seen any compelling uses of the technology in games.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    The discussion was / is whether K+M would be better or not.
    Which is exactly why your comment was completely irrelevant. Or did I misread the phrase, "neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield any benefits"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And I said; no, it isn't.
    Actually, you said, "No, I don't care if it is or not."

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And I extended the discussion saying that K+M isn't really necessary.
    Neither is a Space Orb, but it sure is helpful when you're playing Descent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And I also said that K+M focused games on the PC haven't lead to many great games within the last years.
    And I showed you how almost all of your "examples" were based on keyboard-controlled games.

    You really can't accept the idea that a keyboard and mouse might be better in some situations than a gamepad or motion controls, let alone that there are many situations in which it's always better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And this was the reason I listed some great PS3 games, games that don't feel like they're missing a keyboard or a mouse.
    You're being rather revisionist there. When you actually listed the games, you were making the "point" that they couldn't be (or hadn't been) duplicated on general-purpose computers. Now that I've listed examples that disprove that idea, you go back and change the reason that you posted them in the first place.

    Bad show.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And I make a further claim. I claim that you won't be any faster using a keyboard against anyone in the top10 or even top20 who know how to treat the d-pad and analog stick, respectively, not under normal racing conditions nor under ZONE.
    When did I ever say that using the keyboard would make me the next Hellfire or DarkDrium? I couldn't care less about your "further claim".

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    From ZONE I can tell you that the analog stick is irreplaceable for some turns / tracks. No matter how good one can control the d-pad, some turns can't be managed with the d-pad at very high speed, nor would be a keyboard of any help.
    I never cared about Zone mode anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    Anyway. How many hours have you played WipEout HD using the d-pad & L1/R1 to claim that the DS3 is not suited for WipEout HD?
    About one. As awkward as the stick's placement is, trying to use the stiff crosspad effectively is even worse. As far as the shoulder buttons go, they're about half an inch too high for me to be any good with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And why do you think you would be "better off using a keyboard"?
    I don't know; maybe because I have the same experience with Wipeout 3? Maybe because I'm already worthless enough with crosspads in any game, let alone a precison-demanding one like Wipeout HD? Maybe because I have years of experience on the keyboard playing games across several different genres? Heaven forbid that I might actually know what I can use effectively!

    Honestly, how can you sit there and seriously believe that you're more knowledgeable than me about the input devices that I'm better with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    How do you measure 'better'? What's the metric?
    Walls hit divided by minutes of playing time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    If it just applies to you, no problem. But if you speak in general terms, then I hope you can actually proof it.
    Reason #1: Keyboards are far more responsive than crosspads and triggers will ever be. Given a keyboard, I could do a barrel roll in an instant. Side-shifts would be even easier.

    Reason #2: Keyboards give me more control. With the stick or crosspad, I can't turn or pitch without one axis affecting the other, while a keyboard lets me separate them and increase my accuracy. Also, a keyboard lets me access up to five buttons simultaneously, while I lose time moving my thumb between a gamepad's face buttons. (Not that I use any face buttons besides X while playing Wipeout HD, but it's a huge point in the keyboard's favor nonetheless.)

    Reason #3: Like the final example that I gave for the last reason, this doesn't really have much to do with Wipeout HD, but I still couldn't ignore it. Keyboards are more versatile. I would love to see an attempt to integrate the equivalent of hotkeys into a console game. It would be a trainwreck - but, on the keyboard, any conceivable command is right there on the number pad. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.)

    And those are just advantages in the keyboard's favor. With the mouse, even more possibilities are opened.

    I agree that gamepads do have many advantages over keyboards (especially the thumb-stick, which, while terrible in Wipeout HD - although that may be due as much to placement as it is to anything else - is excellent in most other contexts), but keyboards are hardly the useless, antiquated relics that you're trying to paint them as being.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    But don't get me wrong, I don't want you to distract from trying to play WipEout HD with a keyboard and having fun with it.
    "Despite literally everything that I've said up to this point, I really think that you might be right."

    Get real. You really think that I'll buy that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    I would even try it myself just for the sake of it. Anyhow, my statement simply is that K+M isn't the Holy Grail as many PC gamers do believe it is.
    No, your "statement" is that keyboards are terrible for games and that motion control is awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    From my perspective; you just haven't given the d-pad & L1/R1 a serious try.
    I have. You think that Wipeout HD is the only game that I've tried to control with that wretched thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    And switching over saying that a keyboard would be better for WipEout HD, without given any proof,
    Aside from the proof that I've, you know, given.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProblemSolver View Post
    is pretty much prone to generate some long discussions nobody wants to read. xD
    Don't look at me. You're the only one in this thread who's tried to turn this into an argument. I just want to play Wipeout with a keyboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaturnReturn View Post
    I don't see the point in switching to keyboard. You can't really measure how good you are without comparing to other people. To compare to others you have to try and keep as much constant as possible. If the keyboard turned out to be superior and you improve your times with it, then people can easily dismiss those times. You wouldn't know how much of the performance improvement was the keyboard and how much was practice. Also, if you ever went to a convention then the chances of a keyboard being legit would be slim, I would have thought. (I think others have kind of said this too and feel I may have said this all before in a different thread somewhere ).
    You're acting like the keyboard would play the game for me. I have no idea how that logic works.
    Last edited by Dan Locke; 11th June 2010 at 05:06 AM.

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