Where art thou, Tigron and Van-Uber?

[Kyonshi]

I think Tigron and Van-Uber ships could go through a nice face-lift and new design under the surgery tools of SL. First i would go far from from the Fusion models, but not completely. The main hull design spirit should be translated into the new HD and Fury models.

Tigron would still be the tank-type ship it was, but without that ridiculous bulky look, which recalls the shape of a bomb straight out of WWII. The frontal cockpit and pilot seat should stay like it was, since this was very original.

Van-Uber must at all costs get rid of the kid's toy-like shape it has. It could feature a mix of dual hull and arrow-head shape, a bit like Fury Harimau.

[Dan Locke]

Van-Uber must at all costs get rid of the kid's toy-like shape it has. It could feature a mix of dual hull and arrow-head shape, a bit like Fury Harimau.

They need to get away from the Fury aesthetic ASAP. All of the ships look exactly the same: they're all piles of broken plastic, arranged in somewhat different shapes (all ugly ones) and decked out in different colors. The Qirex looks nothing like a Qirex, the Auricom looks nothing like an Auricom - heck, the only one that remotely resembles its "true" form is the FEISAR, and it looks pathetic.

[Kyonshi]

I wasn't talking about the Fury shape of Harimau, only that its a mix of dual hull and arrowhead.

Besides, yes, some Fury designs are very odd, like Mirage for instance and the disappointing Qirex, i give you that. I dont even like Fury Piranha But overall, its a great exercise of design. The Fury Auricom, even with major differences, recalls some features and general aspect of the HD. Its not evident, but there is. The Triakis is awesome, The Goteki 45 still have the looks of the HD but even more aerodynamic and slick, the Fury Assegai have more menacing presence than the HD. AG-Systems and Icaras are ok and are just versions 2.0 from their predecessors.

But dude, come on... the Fury Feisar is one of the most beautifully designed ship ever!!! Its about time they gave it such fast and sweet lines!

[DawnFireDragoon]

i have to disagree, i respect your opinion, but i always liked the aerodynamic smooth feisar ship design. personally i really hope they pull back from the crazy ships for any future game/dlc.

[Dan Locke]

Besides, yes, some Fury designs are very odd, like Mirage for instance and the disappointing Qirex, i give you that. I dont even like Fury Piranha But overall, its a great exercise of design. The Fury Auricom, even with major differences, recalls some features and general aspect of the HD. Its not evident, but there is. The Triakis is awesome, The Goteki 45 still have the looks of the HD but even more aerodynamic and slick, the Fury Assegai have more menacing presence than the HD. AG-Systems and Icaras are ok and are just versions 2.0 from their predecessors.

They look OK enough seperately, but the overall style is so... homogeneous. I don't care that the original lines are buried somewhere under all of the random flaps and panels - if I can't see them, what difference does it make? Every ship looks like every other ship, but squished into a slightly different shape.

And, when you say "the HD", you really mean "the way that the ships have looked ever since Wipeout XL". Fury completely abandons the series's cool, classic visual aesthetic in favor of ugly, overwrought piles of fins that lack character and elegance.

But dude, come on... the Fury Feisar is one of the most beautifully designed ship ever!!! Its about time they gave it such fast and sweet lines!

It had "fast and sweet lines". Now it's all droopy in the front and boxy in the back. It looks like somebody put one of the ships from the first game through a blender. Also, the ship's entire orientation is screwed up - it looks like it's been tilted forwards by about 15 degrees.

[Kyonshi]

What would have you like then? A complete turn over in general aspect and design? Then i bet we would see lot of people freaking out more than when they saw Fury ships! I would really hate to see Feisar go dual hull... xD

It's normal they changed ship design in Fury, its a "new" chapter in the serie, they announced it anyway. Its cool to play with design sometimes, its meant to be. I agree with you that some designs are a total miss, but some are good. They can't really be all ugly, otherwise its nothing else than a subjective opinion based on the fact that you're a WipEout purist... just like me actually, believe it or not. Here's an example to explain my statement.

Even if i accept some Fury ship designs, WipEout must have the floating effect and features all the original teams from 1995, two things we lost in Fusion. I have difficulty accepting anything that differs from the original recipe. I also didn't like consuming shield energy to turbo boost in WipEout 3. AG-Systems and Auricom looks nothing like they were in WipEout XL, only Feisar and Qirex retained some of that look up to now.

But despite all of these issues, we're now at HD/Fury, and so far, i'm glad i found back the WipEout i know, with some changements that were carefully chosen. The foalting effect is back, all the original legendary teams are back, with some new, and to me its cool. Barrel rolls made a lot of people frown, but it turned out to be a good addition from the experience of many pilots. My point is, if you refuse to change, you slowly dig up your tomb. Also, nothing can't be done without trials and errors. The way SL calculated the evolution of WipEout to keep it alive is fine by me, and that also includes what they suggested and came up with WipEout Fury.

[Dan Locke]

What would have you like then? A complete turn over in general aspect and design?

No; I'd like to keep the same gradual evolution that had been going on. For example, take the Qirex:

In the original Wipeout, the Qirex was only distinguished from the other ships by its use of a single wide engine, rather than two small, round ones. Other than that, it had the same dart-like shape that characterized the other crafts.

Wipeout XL redefined the series completely, and its radical new art direction would dictate the Wipeout games' aesthetic for another decade. The Qirex gained its current dual-hull shape and purple color scheme.

Wipeout 3, rather than rocking the series with another ground-up redesign, refined and expanded on Wipeout XL's winning formula. The Qirex, along with the other ships, became smoother-looking and more brightly-colored.

Wipeout Fusion, due to its immense lameness, did not have the Qirex. It did have a torpedo with stubby wings, though.

Wipeout Pure represented a return to the character of Wipeout XL, and it re-introduced the Qirex to the series in a more rounded form.

Wipeout Pulse changed the Qirex's shape to be closer to its design in Wipeout XL. The Qirex regained its boxiness, but it also took on a slightly wedge-like profile.

Wipeout HD smoothed the design's concave edges into curves, while bringing it closer to the Wipeout 3 design's boxiness.

Wipeout HD: Fury changed the pontoons into black fins with purple plates on top, removed the rudder-ish things in the rear, and generally made the Qirex ugly and unrecognizable.

See how it goes? For eleven years, the Qirex maintains its cool, boxy shape while gaining detail, refinement, and gradual modernization, and then Fury comes along and butchers it beyond recognition. It would make about as much sense for Nintendo to exchange Mario's hat and overalls for Spandex and a cape!

Then i bet we would see lot of people freaking out more than when they saw Fury ships! I would really hate to see Feisar go dual hull... xD

So would I.

It's normal they changed ship design in Fury, its a "new" chapter in the serie, they announced it anyway.

I don't care that they changed the ship design; I care that they took a cool aesthetic and threw it out the window in favor of over-designed ugliness and gimcrackery, not to mention homogeneity. I would welcome a Wipeout XL-like revitalization of the series, but it would have to actually be an improvement. Besides, how can something claim to be "a new chapter" when it does nothing but add ugly ship models to an existing game? At least back up the new look with new - improved - gameplay.

Its cool to play with design sometimes, its meant to be. I agree with you that some designs are a total miss, but some are good.

Eh, the Auricom looks cool, in the same way that a really complicated motorcycle does. Apart from that, though, I really can't see anything good. The EG.X is all humpbacked, like it broke its spine; the Icaras looks like it has a ring through the bridge of its nose. Everything is tasteless, a mass of black plastic and shiny panels.

They can't really be all ugly, otherwise its nothing else than a subjective opinion based on the fact that you're a WipEout purist...

Actually, I just really think that they're ugly.

Even if i accept some Fury ship designs, WipEout must have the floating effect and features all the original teams from 1995, two things we lost in Fusion. I have difficulty accepting anything that differs from the original recipe. I also didn't like consuming shield energy to turbo boost in WipEout 3. AG-Systems and Auricom looks nothing like they were in WipEout XL, only Feisar and Qirex retained some of that look up to now.

Wipeout XL's AG-Systems looked awkward with its almost-but-not-quite pontoons, and its Auricom was hideous. The Wipeout 3 Auricom has endured, though (especially with the third skin in Wipeout HD), and that leaves the AG-Systems as the only ship without a cohesive identity. (Even then, it looks the same in Wipeout XL and Wipeout 3 - barring the split down the front in the former game - and again in Wipeout Pure, Wipeout Pulse, and Wipeout HD.)

But that's beside the point. Even going back to the first game, you'll find that the ships in the Wipeout series have a very clean, uncluttered appearance. They are elegant. Their lines can be sleek, boxy, or angular, but they always look sharp and cohesive.

Contrast this with the Fury ships. They abandon the smooth contours and corners that previously defined the vehicles, instead favoring a bizarre mishmash of exposed black plastic and skeletal linkages, barely covered by apparently random panels, plates, and fins. Wipeout XL drew the ships apart, giving them unique visual identities within the limits of the original PlayStation's architecture; Fury wastes the PlayStation 3's prodigious power on conforming every ship to a frankly ugly visual aesthetic.

But despite all of these issues, we're now at HD/Fury, and so far, i'm glad i found back the WipEout i know, with some changements that were carefully chosen. The foalting effect is back, all the original legendary teams are back, with some new, and to me its cool. Barrel rolls made a lot of people frown, but it turned out to be a good addition from the experience of many pilots.

You don't like Wipeout 3's Hyperthrust, but you think that Wipeout Pure's barrel roll mechanic is a good idea? It's essentially the same thing, but much more restricted and not nearly as helpful or strategic.

My point is, if you refuse to change, you slowly dig up your tomb.

And my point is that you shouldn't "fix" what isn't broken, certainly not when you're dealing with an instantly recognizable, multi-million-dollar franchise with its own identity, its own character, and a die-hard group of fans.

Even in the regular Wipeout HD, I hate how tail-heavy and unpredictable the handling is. That shouldn't have been changed so drastically, if it should have been changed at all.

Also, nothing can't be done without trials and errors.

Those errors aren't supposed to make it into the final product. Any engineer can tell you that.

The way SL calculated the evolution of WipEout to keep it alive is fine by me, and that also includes what they suggested and came up with WipEout Fury.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

[Lance]

Our memories are long enough and our intelligence great enough that we do not require such extensive quotation to understand each other's arguments and what the specific points apply to. Please read the WipeoutZone guidelines and do not quote the previous post in its entirety even if you've broken it in to little pieces.

[Lance]

Whatever development sequence we might think is logical and natural, the fact is that in both games and real life, each time key personnel are replaced by new ones, the new designers, project heads, and upper management want to put their own stamp very distinctively on the teams and the games/real life racing organisations [and formulas]. They have their own views about what is best and they all have egos that want their own moment of recognition.

[Dan Locke]

Our memories are long enough and our intelligence great enough that we do not require such extensive quotation to understand each other's arguments and what the specific points apply to. Please read the WipeoutZone guidelines and do not quote the previous post in its entirety even if you've broken it in to little pieces.

I'm sorry, but that' just how online debates work. You don't respond to the post all in one go, because you have to address each argument seperately. The only way to do that effectively is to quote the arguments individually before rebutting them.

I can understand the rationale behind not doing this:

I think f-zero is a pretty cool guy, eh falcon punchs and doesnt afraid of anything

Fal-cone PAWNCH!!!

but the quote-free approach is just insufficient in some situations.

[Lance]

It is not the purpose of this forum to be a stage for formal debates. It is also insulting to other members to behave as though their intellectual capacities were so limited that the discussed point must be in front of their eyes at this instant for them to remember their own words. Please adhere to the WZ guidelines; they were created in order to achieve a particular sort of ambience, a friendly discussion, not serious debate. This is not a high-school debating club. Discussion need not be quote-free, but it should be quotation-minimal. Nor should we try too hard to prove other people wrong and our own opinion superior. The forum is not a contest. Now that I've said the same thing multiple times with slight variation, I'll cease unless further words or actions are necessary. Back on topic now, please.

[SaturnReturn]

I agree with Lance in terms of the sheer number of quotes. You clearly have some strong opinions, and many of them will be shared with others. Some are also interesting to read. But I'd much rather read your opinions if they are laid out in a way that is easier to read, which didn't require me to re-read what I'd only just read to see exactly which specific (sometimes throw-away) comment you are referring to. I think arguments and discussion based on picking apart every single sentence written by other forum members are unnecessarily long, and quite off-putting. Given the choice, I'm more likely to just ignore a post like that.

[Lance]

Luckily, as moderators, we have additional options.

[XpanDrome2097]

Oh, it's teh first time that I post in HD's section, but only now I have tried HD and Fury at my cousin's house hehehehe !
I feel amazed: strongest name ever tried for PS3, there's no doubt!

But at this time am very sad for the exclusion of Van-Uber team: it wasn't a great outstanding ship, but very honest.
Sometimes I think that Van-Uber was created in Fusion to replace the Assegai team, the 2 teams are a quite similar in Fusion: cool and unique aesthetics, good top speed, good/excellent thrust, very manovrable buy very weak shield...but this is only a personal opinion.
I hope to see again Van-Uber in a new WipEout game, in Pure VU was a very responsive ship.
Tigron...mmmh, i don't like in every way I see it....but i know that this team have a great number of fans everywhere and it deserves to come back...but...two teams from Moscow????
A fusion with Qirex...Tigrex ? Or Qigron ??
No, only a joke of words...I hope in a good future for this 2 abandoned and underrated teams!

[Rapier Racer]

I played as VanUber during the Fusion years since it was about the closest thing you could get to an Assegai. I did like the ship a lot cool design logo and colour scheme plus don't forget about it's bitch of a SW sometimes it did sod all other times it ripped the arse out 3 ships in a row.

Sometimes used Tigron in Pure as an anti Triakis measure Triakis vs Tigron made for some interesting fights, one shady team vs the other and both with mega shielding.