Something about Wipeout HD / fury doesn't feel.. well right!

[Lance]

I wonder why the original handling would put people off; it actually feels like your there in a real world controlling a real machine. Unlike, ooohhh, F-Zero, for instance.

[Frances_Penfold]

I don't think that realism (is that even an appropriate label for an AG-based game?) is what most gamers care about in handling-- it's how intuitive the controls are and how quickly they can become effective at using them

I don't think for most gamers that the controls for the older Wipeout games are intuitive or easily learned.

[Lance]

I thought that intuitive is exactly what they were, 'cause I picked it up pretty fast despite having already been almost 57 at the time, and I am far below the best videogame players. The physics of the old games feel real to me, the way masses actually behave when in motion, and that means I could deal with the movement in the same way as I'd naturally expect, hence, intuitively.

[Frances_Penfold]

Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that your childhood was spent racing AG vehicles in a distant star system in the crown nebula, while the rest of us grew up driving cars

[Lance]

Nah, I spent much of my time with King Arthur and Robin Hood, and in the Land Beyond the Looking Glass.

[IH8YOU]

Wipeout - handling was almost TOO real from acceleration / steering standpoint. Of all the games, I'd say that one handled most like an AG ship likely would. Bouncy over gaps and altitude changes, serious deceleration up hill, and air-brakes that worked like flaps on a plane.

The wall / track collision physics in the original was too brutal to even be described as brutal - it was epically (@*$ing damning in the gutters of hell simmering in an ooze of smashed @$$hole$. But it did one thing - killed off the weak and feeble - only the true nuts actually stuck the game through. And it sure taught me the importance of clean lines.

2097 was my favorite handling Wipeout to date - hands down, no contest.

Wip3out - eh, more dynamic gameplay with the shield/boost sacrifice - but started changing for the worse handling wise. (sure it was "precise" - not that the first 2 weren't - but it stopped handling like an AG ship "should").

Wipeout Fusion - was confusing, to say the least. Yes, 60FPS sped things up - yet the handling was muddy and soft - and lines didn't seem consistent - even if YOU were. Especially on the ice / forrest - or any of the major vertical drops / loops where the scenery whizzed by. The "rocky section" of Florion Height isn't what I mean - as that was relatively consistent - it's when the graphics were taxed and gameplay suffered.

The saving grace from Fusion - my GOD - I loved the handling of that games Zone Ship / Zone Mode - it still feels faster to me that the current Zone Mode. And that mode DID feel precise - it got shaky for me after Zone 52 with the hairpins - but I chalk that up to me sucking.

Pure handled VERY different from any Wipeout - yes the dynamics game changed to be more fun - but the handling was very different. I chalked that up to the tiny screen, buttons, and PSP itself - so I don't judge Pure against the full console versions.

Pulse I never played - so I dunno.

Wipeout HD - it feels muddy, fake and laggy. Even with my new PS3 - there is considerable lag - and the busier my fingers get with multiple commands - the fewer actually get executed. On Fusion in Zone 50+ on a very technical section of track, I'd be slamming the @(#^ out of the airbrakes and dpad at the same time and it always did what I asked. With HD - if I barrel roll, counter steer, side shift, absorb a pickup before crossing a pad, and attempt to shoot the new one (in quick succession). Well, 2 of my 5 commands likely won't make it 50% of the time. There have been times where my ship REALLY defies physics - the biggest is how the mass seems to get a lot lower when you pull away from the track - it feels heavier on/near it - but after a certain point - it behaves completely different. The same goes for steering / airbrakes - when you start to / slip off the edge - airbrakes don't work anymore - which is a double suck for obvious reasons.

Edit: Before I'm told to stop playing HD and go back to the stone ages of 2097 - I DO ENJOY WOHD - ask anyone at Sony / SL who's seen my account time for WOHD on PSN - it's fun. But I do feel the handling in this generation isn't what it could be.

[0L4F]

This thread is actually about a fundamental issue in the 'feel' of WipEout games: inertia.
For me personally, inertia made 2097 such an incredible joy to play. You're taking a sharp corner. At some point, you're facing the inside of the corner head-on, but you know you have the momentum to make it around it. Once I got my head around it (took quite a while) it was amazing.

But inertia has gone missing since then. Wip3out toned it down, and Fusion just ditched it. It's still quite absent in HD, but the rest of the gameplay there is enough to make up for that.

I love playing WipEout in HD, but I'd love it even more with a '2097 Inertia'-option.

[G-Hob]

I am really enjoying the feel and handling of HD. I enjoyed both of the PSP games, but the HD version is so much easier to control and to avoid the walls, especially on Phantom.

Of the earlier games I liked Wip3out's handling the best (ignoring turbo-scraping), partly because I find the left-analog stick of a Dual Shock much better for controlling Wipeout the the D-pad. HD's handling is close enough to 3's than I'm more than happy with it.

[RJ O'Connell]

One thing I've learned to appreciate about Wipeout HD after playing a ton of Street Fighter and other fighting games is how balanced the ships are compared to other games in the series. It's no longer about picking the ship with the highest top speed rating. A skilled pilot flying FEISAR has as much chance to win as a skilled pilot flying Icaras or AG Systems.

As great as having an online feature for Wipeout 3 would have been, I bet you anything 80% of the races would essentially be all Icaras. Then you'd have a competitive gaming scene even worse than Smash Bros.

[ProblemSolver]

"Something about Wipeout HD / fury doesn't feel.. well right!"

Hmm ... something is wrong with the loading screen, if you ask me.

[Gusto-Pastel]

I'm probably going to be banned from the forums for saying this, but I hated Wipeout XL. There. I said it. My opinion is probably a little coloured because it was the 4th Wipeout game I played (after Wip3out, Fusion and HD in that order, addicted to all three in turn... except Wip3out, I only had the demo for it but I was still addicted when I had it!), and I played it on PC with a load of stuff missing (backgrounds, music), but it all felt kinda crap. I stopped dead every time I hit a wall, all the turning felt way too sensitive and, though this might be an effect of playing it on PC, everything felt like it was in fast forward. And now I have another reason to hate it, and that's because everyone else loves it I never felt that there was any sense of inertia in XL, like losing all your kinetic energy upon the slightest impact, which should turn the pilot's internal organs to a fine paste, and I can definitely feel it in Fusion and HD. You want inertia? Try getting the Tigron to go around a hairpin, you have to slide it round the corner like you would a rally car! And in HD the physics handle inertia so much better, although sliding not so much so. But if you think about it, AG racing is effectively the F1 of the future, and do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? Admittedly they don't go around firing weapons at each other now either, but that's probably for saftey reasons. If they could do it safely they would. It's very easy for people who've been with a series for a while to see classic games through rose-tinted glasses. Just think about that for a bit.

[Sausehuhn]

[…] do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? […]

Maybe because in 200 years they're not driving cars anymore but floating in AG-vehicles that do react differently?

[ProblemSolver]

... But if you think about it, AG racing is effectively the F1 of the future, and do you see Brawns or McLarens sliding round the place? No, so why should they in 200 years' time? ...

They do slide to some degree while being on the limit.

And from a physical point of view there is no turning without sliding while moving,
since one would need an infinite amount of energy to abruptly change direction.

[JABBERJAW]

New wipeouts will never feel like the old ones. Barrel rolls being one reason, but imo not the main one. The sideshift makes drifting unneccessary, and you can essentially grip every turn. The pitch control in HD means just about nothing, it doesn't affect the speed except to a mimimum degree. Also, while I agree that hitting the wall should not stop you dead (there is scraping btw before that happens), being able to ride the wall (fusion, HD) and get around turns just as fast as making a perfect turn is complete crap. HD does have nice movement of the ship, and the control in the air is pretty good, but when the landing doesn't matter (as compared to the original 4), and you can bottom out and keep your speed, it takes out a huge element(skill feature) of the original game, a feature that was one of the main reasons I liked it, because it was a 4 way movement game instead of a 2 way movement game, and you had to land just right, or risk losing perhaps 50kph. The sideshift makes anticipating turns a thing of the past. It used to be awesome piloting a qirex through spilskinanke, and thefeeling you get when you made it through that difficult tunnel unscathed is not attainable in HD.

My opinion on HD is they took pure/pulse, made a super smooth playing game, improved the ships physics, improved the flight control, but after that, the rest of the game was made way too easy in comparison to those two previous games, that now everyone keeps up with everyone, and it is a crapshoot as to who gets the good weapons. EVEN the best pilot in the world would have severe trouble getting away from the pack. I think that if it had kept pure's pulse' wall collision, it would be much better for competition, and easily the best of the last three, but as is, it is not enough about driving skill.

OH, analog means nothing as well, forgot about that too, making a smooth turn instead of tap tap tap isn't any faster, but may actually be slower. This may be due to only 6 degrees of analog movement that was programmed into it though.

so while I think all three of these games are good, they are not even close to the previous games as far as enjoyment goes, where it is actually difficult to get perfect laps, and driving messups actually mean you are going to lose ground every time it happens, not occasionally.

Whoever said something about sliding even on turning, I forgot who, QR is actually like that.

[Gusto-Pastel]

They do slide to some degree while being on the limit.

And from a physical point of view there is no turning without sliding while moving,
since one would need an infinite amount of energy to abruptly change direction.

Ah, but they don't slide, they rotate the front wheels and the overall direction of the car is altered. Although thinking about it now a day later, the change in physics between wheels and hovering probably would lead to a degree of sliding... although that means that the "slippy" sections in Fusion made no sense, because the surface you're on shouldn't make a difference... even then, Fusion had a much better sense of inertia and sliding in heavier ships than HD. Also, looking at Jabberjaw's post, I've spent the last 4 years or so trying to figure out what exactly pitch control is meant to do, only to find that it affects jump height in HD. Not very useful, considering it used to be another part of the integral ship controls, although it probably had to make way for things like side shifting, possibly the most useless feature ever, and barrel rolls, which are cool when they work.

[yeldar2097]

Before anyone shoots me, I too prefered the way 2097 handled. I agree about the bottoming-out bit but that was probs chaged cos of BRs (like you said JAB).
However, the BRs in HD work just fine (they used to be crap but now they're fixed ^_^ ), Sideshift is completely awesome and necessary to get a vaguely decent time, and the same goes for pitching (albeit not quite as much but it's still v necessary in certain places).
P.S. You can still win races without using weapons...it's called "being sociable (only in one's own mind though)"

[JFthebestJan]

pitch control affects jump height in HD. Not very useful, ... like side shifting, possibly the most useless feature ever

i can assure u, that pitch control is very useful in HD. it's my "secrect" weapon to go under 28sec. in ZICO mode.
and sideshifting is even more useful then pitch control, u can cut corners very effectively!
just my 2 cents

[leungbok]

Also, looking at Jabberjaw's post, I've spent the last 4 years or so trying to figure out what exactly pitch control is meant to do, only to find that it affects jump height in HD. Not very useful,

Here an example of the utility of pitch control (the first BR) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWl8tAdQI5A

and barrel rolls, which are cool when they work.

When they don't works, it's our fault ! (since fury release)

[ProblemSolver]

Ah, but they don't slide, they rotate the front wheels and the overall direction of the car is altered. ...

They don't slide that much, but they always do to a certain degree. What you
are referring to as sliding is when a race driver goes beyond the grip limit.
But even if he does not, the car does always slide a bit when turning while
moving. The tires do rotate and move forward, true, but as soon as you wanna
change direction they start to slide / slip. It works something like this;
while turning, a tire loses grip and starts to slip, but a split second later
the tire regains grip again and will lose it once again, and so on. As harder
you push as longer those slip intervals become. And at a given point, if the
sum of the longitudinal force and the lateral force exceeds the traction
available, the tire doesn't get any grip again for an extended period of time.
This period is usually referred to as sliding. A common misconception in
text-books is, that a tire doesn't slip as long as the forces applied to it
doesn't exceeds the traction available, which isn't true. As soon as one
applies a longitudinal or lateral force to a tire it starts to slips to a
certain degree. But granted, it's not that obvious.

[yeldar2097]

ProblemSolved