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Thread: W'O"MG! It's not really 1920*1080 HD

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perforu View Post
    So my guess was that PS3's computing power is far more than present games need (including Wipeout HD).
    Not at all. Wipeout was using a fair large percentage of the available power in the PS3. Of course there are areas which we could have done better or differently, and I'm sure the team will carry on learning and sqeezing where they can and making room on the processors for even more cool effects and features.

    The main thing here is that, based on our understanding of the technology at the time, we wrote the engine then tried to use it to do as much as we could in the available time. Certain types of thing, such as particle effects can vary in rendering time exponentially depending on how big they are drawn on the screen, meaning that sometimes the rendering cost would shoot up drastically to levels that were impossible to render at 60Hz. This is just a fact of life with modern day GPUs and you see the same effect on ANY platform.

    So in those situations, we throttle to smooth out the lumps. But these are exceptions... you need to look at the "flat" performance of the game under normal situations to really judge the performance...

    Sorry if this seems like a rambling argument, but you must understand that the performance of modern games like these are subject to a lot of different factors which can sometimes fight against each other. We have to come up with strategies for rendering "general" situations optimally and then clever tricks to cover the exceptions!

  2. #12
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    Not at all, it's a sound and fully understandable argument. And your approach seems to be the only sound one too. I guess that I just thought of a PS3 platform too much.. I'm quite positive about talented guys like you to be able to squeeze even more from this platform later on

  3. #13
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    Don't think about it like that. Any platform has finite potential, so no matter what you do there is always something else that you do extra. Any platform will have a limit, so don't worry about that and instead look at what stuff you HAVE got there that hasn't been seen on previous machines!

    And believe me, the REALLY talented guys are still in Liverpool working on more cool stuff for you
    Last edited by Task; 27th September 2008 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Quotation of previous post removed

  4. #14
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    I just can't help it, I was born a malcontent and can't help my pesimistic approach neither
    Anyway, congrats on Wipeout HD cause it sure is a job well done. And new cool stuff from SL is always welcome hehe

  5. #15
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    As a programmer who used to develop virtual and augmented reality systems for the military (and others), I can deeply respect the elegance of this solution. I started to pick up on it a bit last night when I was standing particularly close to my 42" TV (trying to get the Motion Master trophy), and woke up this morning to read this article.

    The human brain has a limited capacity to process information (whether visual, auditory, or otherwise) and varying thresholds for "disturbing" those senses. Audio cannot ever stutter and video cannot change framerate during dynamic sequences... no game better displays the framerate issue than GTA IV on the PS3 -- sometimes drops even below 10 fps when there's a lot going on... and it's disorienting!

    To have that level of framerate shift in a game with as much motion and action as WipEout would cause people to get ill from watching and cause severe physiological side effects... I applaud the engineering approach of recognizing that:

    a) the times when you can't render at 1920x1080p60 are when there's a lot going on (visually and audibly)
    b) those times are the most critical to maintain framerate and audio continuity
    c) they're also the times when the brain is least likely to be trying to process detailed visual content
    d) reducing horizontal resolution allows you to maintain framerate without disturbing the player

    Horizontal resolution, particularly, is the least spatially sensitive part of the human visual system.

    So, kudos to the graphics gurus at SL for picking this approach... I only wonder if Sony ever expected developers to do this (and provided an API to make it easy), or if somebody at SL came up with the system from scratch... whoever figured it out deserves a pat on the back!

    /Andrew

  6. #16
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    Didnt want to make a new thread for only one question. But im not totally satisfied with the framerate and wanted to ask you guys if you have exeperienced a more stable game in 720p than in 1080p?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perforu View Post
    I was born a malcontent and can't help my pessimistic approach neither
    All joking aside - look at the improvements in game graphics made on the PlayStation between 1994-2000, on the PlayStation 2 between 2000-2006 and on the PSP since its introduction in 2004. All of these improvements are made while the platform remains stable and they are simply the result of the game developers finding new and innovative ways of utilizing the underlying hardware. Consoles will never be able beat the capabilities of their contemporary high-end PCs but then the graphics card of that high-end PC cost as much or more than the console and has to be upgraded every 18 months or so. PC game developers tend to develop for those bleeding-edge cards since their owners are the most likely group to buy new games, meanwhile owners of older cards have to "dial down" the game graphics in order to play the game. Meanwhile each console model uses the same type of graphics chip (Nvidia RSX in the case of the PS3) and sub-system which makes the effort to exploit every last smidgen of performance out of that hardware much more worthwhile for console game developers.

    Furthermore this obsession with eye-candy can get a bit tiresome. "Wipeout HD" would still be a fantastic game even at non-HD resolutions simply because it still is "Wipeout" at its core and not just by name. While 1080p at 60 fps on the PS3 is crucial to Sony, the people at Studio Liverpool managed to translate the Wipeout experience to a 480 x 272 screen on the PSP with Pure and Pulse! Good games don't necessarily depend on horsepower (though it can make the developer's job easier). Let's not forget the other aspects of the game. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the people at SL took advantage of the PS3 cell architecture to improve the "local realization" of on-line multi-player races (over that found in Pulse). But horsepower of the console cannot guarantee longevity of the console - ultimately its longevity is largely influenced by the people who can design and implement imaginative (sometimes innovative, sometimes true to a set of core values) games for it, games that the mainstream public will buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skvall View Post
    wanted to ask you guys if you have experienced a more stable game in 720p than in 1080p?
    Well, you know when you are experiencing these "problems", so you are in the best position to recreate them. Disallow 1080i and 1080p in the display settings on your PS3 and see if the "problems" go away. By necessity I'm running at 720p and I haven't observed any problems but then again I'm only cruising around Sol 2/Flash off-line events, so what do I know?

  8. #18
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    Extremely well put...and this is the whole reason I chose the Sony brand over others...it because they have extremely talented game 'designers' to back them up...Studio Liverpool being one of the ones at the forefront...

    I can honestly tell you...as soon as I heard WipEout was coming to the PS3...I was stoked...I didn't care what it would look like...didn't care about anything else...I knew that from the get go...we were in for a treat...

    Then came the 1080p at 60fps slogan...and that was a plus...then came the screenshots of the game...which further sealed the deal...

    Studio Liverpool in this sense have got their priorities right and fully understood the game they were developing and what the people who play this game look for...and I applaud this sound understanding of their target audience here...it is great to see developers connect so proficiently on this level and so much more...
    Last edited by Lance; 27th September 2008 at 11:55 PM. Reason: REDUNDANT QUOTATION ELIMINATED

  9. #19
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    It is an inspired solution - I'm playing on a 1080p HDTV and I havent noticed any framerate issues nor have I noticed drops in resolution. And besides, it still runs in proper 1080p 99% of the time - it's just when you get quaked while driving into a bomb while turbo-ing - well, that's understandable really that the res is dropped. But since youre concentrating so hard, by the time you could see a difference, it's back at full 1080p again.

  10. #20
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