Petition against Elimination Respawning

[Chill]

Or just the option later... so all the "skilled" players have nothing to complain about... and it would be viewable in the lobby what respawn races were on and what were off...

You can't count flying off the circuit the same respawn as being eliminated... their was always a drone available to catch you throughout the entire series if not to respawn, which made realistic sense...

[ZenDJiNN]

Payers can learn to become a neusence for fun if they wanted... if they're not skilled, they could sit dead in the middle of the track and just cause people to hit into them, or drive reverse... get eliminated, respawn and continue... I don't want this neusence, as well as if they just choose a speed they obviously can't handle, then they're just in the way of slowing down a good race... the permanent eliminations weeds this kind of thing out.

Isn't this one of the reasons for "Locked" (PW Protected) races? So that only the people "You" trust (Such as Zoners etc) get to race with you? It's a part of Pulse online, so i'm assuming it'll be in HD as well, and it's a good option.

[Chill]

Oh really?? That's a lot better... Didn't know about that...

[eLhabib]

There's no Password protection, but you can assign up to 7 friend slots.

... Seriously, there is a reason all the most successful online games stay successful. They give players rewards for developing skill, and make the game fun to play while that skill is developing. The whole idea of "this game is really hard, deal with it" no longer works. Ninja Gaiden 2 while loved by the hardcore, is not as successful as other action games, because it adopts this attitude. It's sales suffer big time.

Ninja Gaiden 2 failed due to overpowered weaponry and a horrible camera, NOT because it's unforgivingly hard.

[Amon]

That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont

To me it depends if we're talking of a new IP or of a situation like wipeout, a series that exists from lots of time.

In the first scenario, i can think that the developer has to give a clear "direction" to the game. Then giving lots of options it could be a wrong idea.

In the "wipeout scenario", if you go for the "not giving options" way, you have to choose what kind of customer you're going after. The diehards ? The guys who came aboard with the psp's wipeouts ? The casuals ?

I think it's easy to see that if you don't give options, you're going to piss off someone.

So, maybe in our situation, it would be wiser to give the change to let the customer choose what kind of experience wants from Wipeout HD.

[HydrogLox]

You can't count flying off the circuit the same respawn as being eliminated... there was always a drone available to catch you throughout the entire series if not to respawn, which made realistic sense...

There you go with that "realistic" word again. Wipeout is fantasy racer with a futuristic look and feel - it has no obligation to be "realistic". Sensible within it's own framework maybe ...

So you have no trouble in accepting that while you speed down the track that there is a drone around that can hurdle you back onto track without much delay? Where are these drones? Are there hundreds of drones lining the sides of the track? Is there one single drone that services all the craft? Probably not. Lets assume that each craft has its own drone. Now you are assuming that it takes your utmost skill to control a craft that is flying down the track with blinding speed, yet your support drone has no trouble keeping up with you. Maybe it is flying above you so it isn't sensitive to the difficulties of the track. So why can't there be another support drone that carries another hull which is capable catching your ejected cockpit module which it then attaches to the new hull in a matter of seconds? Once that support drone is expended it is relieved by another loaded drone of the same type. Problem rationalized - time to get back to the game ...

Oddly enough nobody seems to have suggested removing eliminations in multi-player. You could increase the penalty of having your craft integrity reduced to 0% be coming to a dead stop. However that would mean no explosions and more importantly being stuck at low integrity (and low speed if you keep hitting the wall) which could be an annoying experience.

So, maybe in our situation, it would be wiser to give the change to let the customer choose what kind of experience wants from Wipeout HD.

Some options are no big deal and if they make some people happy, then great. Many options are more hassle than they are worth. All your options have to interact in a well defined manner. Often simply choosing one over others will lead to a product that is more stable (and that is available earlier). If that means that you lose 2 out of 10 sales then so be it - once the cash of the sales comes in you can always reassess whether it is worth going after the missed sales - as long as you don't mess with the experience of your customers who have already purchased the product (and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).

Furthermore you have to make allowances for the differences in the single-player and multi-player mode. In the original single-player Wipeout You are the center of the universe - so it is all about entertaining you. When you get eliminated you shouldn't be forced sit out the remainder of race just so that the AI craft can find their positions in the race - you know that you didn't finish - time to start over and try again immediately. And when an AI craft is eliminated you get the bonus reward of having one less headache to deal with - which increases your satisfaction and enjoyment.

In multi-player the stakes change - you are no longer the center of the universe - all human players want to be equally entertained - otherwise they will go elsewhere. Just like you didn't want to wait for the AI craft to finish "their" race, many human players don't want wait (again and again) for the more skilled players to finish their race either - they too are in this game for racing. So the most sensible solution is to get them back into the race after experiencing a suitable (but not devastating) delay to reprimand them for their sloppiness. Wipeout doesn't have to be "realistic" - it is supposed to be entertaining. "Realistic" races are primarily audience oriented - that is why racing sponsors finance the teams and events because they want their brand to be seen and to be associated with the winning team. Racing simulations simulate this environment. Wipeout always has been player oriented - so decisions should always be guided by which outcome will please the most (not all) players.

It basically comes down to "choose your options wisely".

A: I hate barrel rolls!
Z: OK, lets take out barrel rolls.
B: Slow down, barrel rolls are a great "desperate move" feature. It's about taking the risk of reduced craft integrity and reduced guidance stability to gain some precious speed when you desperately need a turbo pickup but you can't find one!
Z: OK, lets put in a "no barrel rolls " option.
Y: Wait a minute, we already specified the medal targets for the track time trials - and some of the gold medal targets require that you use barrel rolls!
Z: Well, maybe make the option available only for multi-player.
A: Didn't you hear? "I hate barrel rolls!" I don't want to be forced to use them - even in single player.
Z: Well, can we allow extra time so that you can get the medals without barrel rolls?
Y: Sure. However, that means that the tracks with barrel roll opportunities will be way too easy for the barrel rolling crowd - the play testers will complain that barrel rolls make those time trials pointless.
Z: I guess we better drop barrel rolls.
B: But now you are making the game harder for the neophyte player. Barrel rolls are a great way to get ahead of AI craft because they don't seem to use them. Some people will lose interest way too quickly without barrel rolls!
Z: So what I'm hearing is that some people hate barrel rolls while others "just adore them". So a configurable option would keep everybody happy right?
A: Yep.
B: Sure.
Y: What about the time trials?
Z: Looks like we now need two sets of medal targets for time trials. "barrel roll" targets and "no barrel roll" targets.
Y: Well, I guess you better significantly increase the play testing allocation for the verification of the time trial targets as there are now twice as many to verify.
Z: "They" are not going to like this, unless we can find something else we can drop ... good thing we haven't announced a release date yet.

[Amon]

(and remember that in SCE's world hopefully the majority of Wipeout HD customers will have little or no previous Wipeout experience - they simply get drawn in by the eye candy. The pre-existing Wipeout hobbyist base is too small to support the commercial Wipeout HD venture).

If i remember well Wipeout Pure sold 1 million copies. If i'm right it would be interesting to know what are the numbers SCEE is expecting from HD.

But apart from that, if i understand well what i quoted, you're saying SCE has no interest at all in all the wipeout fans. All your points in your response sound like this " when we have to choose if we want to please someone who has never bought a wipeout, ora someone who bought many, we go for the first option".

I understand that if you want to dramatically extend your userbase, than it's the way to go.

But understand that being a long time wipeout player, i'm pissed of by this.

At least i'm a Metal Gear nut too, Kojima at least knows the meaning of "fan service".

[mclarensmps]

At least i'm a Metal Gear nut too, Kojima at least knows the meaning of "fan service".

You realize that Wipeout's hardcore fanbase is probably in the thousands, whereas Metal Gear's fanbase is in the millions right?

Kojima can afford to "listen" to his fanbase because they are a huge percentage of the people that will be guaranteed to buy the game again.

SL Cannot afford such a liberty with such a small fanbase, it is not economically viable for them. When you run your own business, you will understand. They don't pull decisions like this out of their ass, it comes from experience, and more importantly, failure.


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Yeah... I'm back from hibernation

[Flashback Jack]

Yeah... I'm back from hibernation

Dude! Where the heck have you been?

- F

[Amon]

You realize that Wipeout's hardcore fanbase is probably in the thousands, whereas Metal Gear's fanbase is in the millions right?

Kojima can afford to "listen" to his fanbase because they are a huge percentage of the people that will be guaranteed to buy the game again.

SL Cannot afford such a liberty with such a small fanbase, it is not economically viable for them. When you run your own business, you will understand. They don't pull decisions like this out of their ass, it comes from experience, and more importantly, failure.

Did you read my post ? Speaking of businness we're saying the same thing.

I've said that i'm pissed off not by their decisions from a businness point of view, but from MY point of view, being a long time fan.

Speaking of userbase, from what i know Wipeout Pure sold a million, link:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/...ibution-future

"Wipeout Pure has been a tremendous success in many respects. The title has now sold over 1 Million units on UMD. But just as impressive, it has generated over 500,000 downloaded files, in the form of tracks, ships, skins etc."

Unluckily, i've found no numbers about old wipeouts.

[mclarensmps]

Speaking of userbase, from what i know Wipeout Pure sold a million, link:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/...ibution-future

I did read your post, I also understand your disappointment, however, the reality of things is that a small hardcore fanbase is not enough to justify these things.

Also, sales =/= hardcore fanbase.

How many of those people still play Wipeout? How many of those people traded in those games for something else? How many of those played it a couple of times and then let their UMD sit there and collect dust afterwards?

The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.

[Amon]

How many of those people still play Wipeout? How many of those people traded in those games for something else? How many of those played it a couple of times and then let their UMD sit there and collect dust afterwards?.

but this is true for ALL games, not only for wipeout pure. And a million is not a huge success, but it's far from failure. it's a good userbase as i see it.

The thing is that the hardcore fanbase will amalgamate in places like this, or similar, and voice their opinion on matters regarding the game. This sampling of the fanbase for wipeout is absolutely nothing, in terms of dollar value, compared to a series like Metal Gear.

As i said i have numbers only for pure and nothing else. But there must be some reason if the wipeout brand is going on no ? It's no mario, of course, but it's something that started more than ten years ago.

There must be a reason no ?

[Colin Berry]

Yes Wipeout Pure sold over 1million

That doesnt mean the core fanbase is 1million though

I wish it was

I'm not at liberty to give out the sales figures for the other Wipeout titles (if people dig on the net they can get ball park I suspect) but lets just say Pure was a HUGE success compared to any other in the series in terms of numbers sold.

The previous biggest seller for the series incidentally was Fusion (unless you count 3 and SE as one thing in which case it runs it close / possibly tips it)




Oh and Metal Gear ?
Kojima should just go make movies..
(resists uber flame comment)

[Lance]

From what I read about Metal Gear Solid 4, yeah, probably so.

[Note: this is purely speculative opinion on my part, based upon nO experience of the game itself, and should hence be regarded as mere ignorant verbal ejection.]
[That is all. Thank you for reading.]

[mdhay]

What did you hear bout mgs4, Lance?

[Lance]

Too much FMV at times when there should have been gameplay.

[HydrogLox]

If i remember well Wipeout Pure sold 1 million copies.

That may be true however there are currently way more PSPs out there than there are PS3s.
Now a good number of PS3 owners will own a PSP but not all of them like Wipeout. I suspect that the PS3 owning (or buying) Wipeout enthusiast customer base is too small to make Wipeout HD successful by simply appealing to the fans.

Have a look at Wikipedia: List of best-selling video games
Pure is on the list but Pulse isn't. Meanwhile there are three different "Monster Hunter" titles on that list. It is difficult to find Pulse sales figures so it is unclear if Pure generated a lot of follow-up purchases.
Now look at the PS3 list. "Ratchet and Clank: Tools of Destruction" sold 1 Million units over the last year. But four of its PS2 predecessors sold 2-3 million units each.
Now Wipeout HD has a distinct price advantage but it is also limited to the PSN customer base. So for Wipeout HDs sake I hope that it's customer base isn't limited to satisfied Pure owners who want more of the same. Wipeout HD has to appeal to PS3 owners in general.

But understand that being a long time wipeout player, i'm pissed of by this.

I can certainly empathize. However it is often necessary to make game-play alterations in an attempt to appeal to a larger audience in order to perpetuate the franchise even if it alienates a few people. Of course these changes can backfire in a big way. That's what makes some of these decisions so difficult for the creators and designers.

But there must be some reason if the wipeout brand is going on no?

Curly Monsters had a go at it with Quantum Redshift (2002) on the XBox. It was a fun AG racing game but it didn't find much of an audience so the second one with on-line play was never realized. During the PS2 reign there was only one Wipeout (2002) title (which is viewed as the black sheep of the series by many). Meanwhile the original Playstation had three successful Wipeout titles. Pure (2005) on the PSP demonstrated the platform's pixel-pushing power (as compared to the other hand-held) however Pulse (2007) doesn't seem to have duplicated Pure's sales. Is the (PS3) console market ready for Wipeout? I hope so but only time will tell.

[Chill]

I still think that respawning should have an on and off option in later installments, as well as the camera's movement effect...

[Lance]

I think that at long last we may have found a WipeoutZone member who is even more verbally voluminous than I am.

In a very textual way.

[Rubix42]

While I agree with many points you make HydrogLox, I must say, the fact that Ratchet and Clank sold 1 million on the PS3 is more significant that the sales numbers of the franchise on the PS2.

Why you ask? Because the install base of people who own the PS3 is much smaller than the PS2. So to see that much penetration of the installed market through the game is a great success.

I would imagine Wipeout HD will see similar success. If only because the majority of PS3 owners right now are die hard sony fans that have their favorite franchises.