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Thread: Petition against Elimination Respawning

  1. #41
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    Thanks, you've expressed exactly how I feel about the issue.

  2. #42
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    One of the most thrilling experiences in a Wipeout tournament has always been going in the last race of a tournament being second overall and HAVING to win that last race while the person in first MUST NOT get points, not even 1. So it was a matter of eliminating him while at the same time finishing first. This happens only so many times, for sure, but it's the "what could happen" kind of situations in a game paired with reactions and options available for the player to deal with those situations that make a good game. With the advent of respawns one major option in Wipeout's gameplay is missing.

  3. #43
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    @ Medusa, I was just giving examples of how people can go OH NO, when they hear something new without even trying it, and how they can be wrong. I wasnt getting into the specific of each (some folk like some changes, some dont, so be it) just pointing out that usually people hear 'new thing, thats different' and get closed towards the idea simply because it is different, it is a change, often people worry for no reason, because once they see the change, they realise its not actually a bad thing.

    Of course there are some changes that are hit and miss and divide people, Barrel Rolls is one, some folk dislike them, some like them. Ultimately in that case who does the team listen to ? Fan A or Fan B ? The answer is simple: Neither. The team has to go with what it believes is right, and they know they wont ever please everyone, they just have to go with what they believe works best, and now and again the team disagree and then its down to the few to make the judgement call for what they believe is best for the game and that might mean going against what they personally want in some cases.
    Because no matter how noble it might be to say, **** the masses, lets make a game for the hardcore fans, that philosophy will put you out of a job, and thats not even considering how divided the hardcore can be.

    But on respawns in multiplayer...
    As I said elsewhere, when people on the online team said they wanted respawn in, I was totally against it, far more than anyone has been here, far more swearing and stamping of feet, and you know, I hadnt even seen it in action or tried it.
    And the first few races I was far from convinced that we needed it, but the more we played with it, the more I appreciated it.

    So whilst it might seem like a bad thing now, I've no doubt it will actually turn out to be a good thing for some poeple who might be wary. Yes there will be some who cant accept it I guess they have to cross their fingers for an add-on making it optional, but certainly for launch given it was one or the other, I am confident the right decision was made. I guess in a few days people will get to try it for themselves, and get rabid again

  4. #44
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    And rapid, too, we hope.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Berry View Post
    ... Barrel Rolls is one, some folk dislike them, some like them. Ultimately in that case who does the team listen to ? Fan A or Fan B ? The answer is simple: Neither. ...
    I don't mean to be a wisecrack here, but in the case of Barrel Rolls the answer is easier to find than you might think:

    Does everyone hate BRs? NO. Ok, but would the people who like BRs actually care if BRs were gone? NO. Would that decision make the BR-haters happy? YES.

    Here's your answer

  6. #46
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    My core Wipeout experience began with Pure (aside from a brief stint with WO64), so I'd probably be among the complainers if barrel rolls were ever removed from the game. I need all my speed, man.

    - F

  7. #47
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    Forgive my heresy, but I was born in 2097 and I'll still miss BR if they're removed.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by eLhabib View Post
    I
    Does everyone hate BRs? NO. Ok, but would the people who like BRs actually care if BRs were gone? NO. Would that decision make the BR-haters happy? YES.

    Here's your answer
    aaaah but thats just your opinion, it is not actual fact

    You cannot take the views of a few of the hardcore (less than 80 votes on the barrel roll thread someone posted) and extrapolate it and make the assumption it is what everyone wants or that people who said they liked them wouldnt miss them
    There are plenty of people involved with the game who really like the barrel roll feature and are against removing it, and plenty of people who play the game but dont necessarily post here who like it as a feature.
    You assume the people who like them wouldnt care if they were gone, but you only assume that because that agrees with what you want

    That said, personally, I wouldnt miss Barrel Rolls too much if they went (although it would feel odd playing pulse and pure tracks without) but I know the majority of the dev team would have argued against removing them from HD.

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    But that's because HD is pretty well attached to Pure and Pulse. How did we end up discussing barrel rolls again? XD

    having "infinite lives" would certainly aid a lot of the veterans in achieving those Elimination-related trophies, no?
    Last edited by RJ O'Connell; 22nd September 2008 at 10:05 PM.

  10. #50
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    Well put, Col.

    Online polls are mostly pointless because they consist of the vocal minority - the hardcore fans who don't count when developers are selling a game to the mass market.

    The only way to really vote is buying or not buying.

  11. #51
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    Of course, you are right, Colin. I was being slightly idealistic there...
    Anyway, if there was an option to disable BRs for online races in HD, everyone would be happy I guess.

  12. #52
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    As to Barrel Rolls - I mainly use them to break the back of some of the nastier time trials to compensate for some lack of pilot skill. So removing them could turn some of the time-trial tracks into ultimate game breakers for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by eLhabib View Post
    Apparently, when you get eliminated in wipEout HD multiplayer, you respawn Yes, it is ****. And no, we don't want it, do we?
    It is abundantly clear that this design doesn't meet with your expectations or previous experiences. This is less of a surprise if you take into account that in Eliminator mode (at least in Pulse, haven't tried in in Wip3Out 3 ***) single-player respawning happens without much of a penalty. In on-line multi-player this behaviour could be even more important for other non-technical reasons.

    Who likes playing "musical chairs" ("Reise nach Jerusalem")? Those who always win. However the fact is that those who are "out" the quickest are actually the ones who need the most practice however they aren't going to get any quicker by "sitting on the bench" and eventually they will stop participating. So in fact this may be a good decision for keeping Wipeout HD more accessible to a larger potential audience/community where pilots of a broader skill range can "mingle" in the same race. Sure, it can be satisfying to casually cruise over the finish line in the first position after half of the roster has been "eliminated" - then again a skilled pilot may very well appreciate that a full roster on the track may make the race more interesting while less experienced pilots still have something to do (provided they have enough integrity to stick around in 8th place).

    If you want to remove the respawn after elimination then maybe leaving the track should become reason for total elimination?

    Granted Wipeout is a combat-racer. But at its core it is a primarily a racing game that uses combat to broaden the racing experience. That is why there is no single weapon that can deplete a craft's integrity in one single hit. The primary effect of receiving a hit is that you are slowed down. Mines and bombs are used to make passing you more difficult; Quake, Missiles, Rockets, Pulse and Cannon are used to create opportunities for passing those who are in front of you. The depletion of craft integrity requires decisions as to whether to absorb the current pickup (or even to choose a pickup instead of an accelerator pad) in order to avoid further slowdown by elimination. Most eliminations are dumb luck - you happened do deliver the eliminating blow. If you want to eliminate a certain pilot you have to deliver multiple hits - in order to do that you have to stay with that craft until it is eliminated. The target craft can prolong this process by seeking and absorbing pickups - in which case the net effect is that the target craft is slowed down. Multiple hits on the target craft will ultimately create the opportunity for the shooter craft to improve it's position - if you forgo this opportunity you are no longer playing a racing game ...

    I'm not saying that you are right or wrong - but I can certainly see how "they" arrived at this particular design decision.

    (*** My introduction to AG racing was through Quantum Redshift, then Pure, then Pulse - haven't had extensive exposure to Wipeout or Wipeout 3)

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    Excellent post. You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.

  14. #54
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    Very wise words, indeed. I absolutely agree. It's always a different view from the top

    Quote Originally Posted by HydrogLox View Post
    ... That is why there is no single weapon that can deplete a craft's integrity in one single hit. ...
    Oh, you haven't met the new and improved Plasma Bolt yet not 100% kill, but damn close, let me tell you that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egg View Post
    Excellent post. You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.
    If we can work for Studio Liverpool whilst being in North America, as HydrogLox currently is, can I apply?

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    @ Rob, damn its been so long since I saw you I cant detect if its sarcasm or not... when you say 'well put'

    But you are right, at the end of the day the only votes that count to Sony are (to use a GCSE economics term) dollar votes.
    Its rare for a game to have a large enough hardcore market to tailor itself for them, especially with rising dev costs etc hell you know how it works.



    @ Elhabib... a Barrel Roll option you say, what an 'odd' thought...

    That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
    Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont



    @ Hydroglox, ... well put and far too detached and eloquent* to be someone from the team!





    * $10 word of the day ! Eat that Mr Foxx !

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Berry View Post

    That said... I get it in the neck sometimes for suggesting options, as there is an argument, the game should be crafted and left as is, rather than full of options. Some folk think options are a sign of the developer not making up their mind, as opposed to a developer putting the choice in the hand of the player.
    Ever heard the phrase damned if you do... damned if you dont

    i think options please everyone and are hugely important to games and there success, i get that something should be crafted, but as a player and a buyer i appreciate been able to take a product and 'craft' it to my personal preferences. such as simple things like in an FPS, the option to invert one's controls. in wipeout the choice of in cockpit/out cock pit. the new HUD's you guys added for the fans! re-assigning a button to something more familiar/comfortable.

    options imo never make me think a developer is unsure, they make me appreciate the choice and enjoy the game more!

  18. #58
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    Payers can learn to become a neusence for fun if they wanted... if they're not skilled, they could sit dead in the middle of the track and just cause people to hit into them, or drive reverse... get eliminated, respawn and continue... I don't want this neusence, as well as if they just choose a speed they obviously can't handle, then they're just in the way of slowing down a good race... the permanent eliminations weeds this kind of thing out.

    If the players are to need practice, they are to get it in the game before going online!! If they can't handle speed, they are to go to a slower speed online!! Online wasn't built for learning, that's what the game was built for. Online was built for experienced players who are in the need for more competition!! Thus respawn should not exist for that, and the sense of acheivement of the eliminator...

    BRs should not exist as they're simply unbelievable... replace it with a large intake that occurs somewhere around the craft that could not occur at the regular elevation of the craft... or bring back pit lanes and energy drain for speed... I never had a problem with that...
    Last edited by Chill; 23rd September 2008 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egg View Post
    You work for Studio Liverpool, and I claim my £5.
    I should be so lucky ... (... I guess).
    However if that is also meant as a compliment I'll take it.
    Compared to some of the design decisions I've seen in some legacy systems that one was crystal clear.
    Though it is interesting to note that there is some kind of open wager at SL for the detection of covert SL WipeoutZone members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapier Racer View Post
    *sigh* why do people want Wipeout to be 'more realistic' it's almost getting annoying having to read that over and over..
    Exactly. Wipeout is a fantasy/futuristic racer that creates it's own reality - however it needs to be consistent in its own ways. If you can accept that you magically appear back on the track after hurdling off of it then you should be able to accept "delayed replacement" after elimination. The original Wipeout design was single-player centric so there will be some aspects (Wipeout realities) have to give because they aren't optimal in the multi-player arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by eLhabib View Post
    Oh, you haven't met the new and improved Plasma Bolt yet not 100% kill, but damn close, let me tell you that!
    The Plasma Bolt can be deadly - however it is more like an area weapon to simultaneously deal damage to multiple craft in a cluster. If you try to use it as a point weapon against a single craft you have to aim and time it, taking concentration away from your racing. So in most cases it is simply wiser to absorb it unless you have a tempting cluster of competitors in front of you that is fairly easy to hit even if you shoot "from the hip".

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Berry View Post
    well put and far too detached and eloquent to be someone from the team!


    Quote Originally Posted by emerald dragoon View Post
    options imo never make me think a developer is unsure, they make me appreciate the choice and enjoy the game more!
    The options that you have described so far mainly deal with slight variations of the human "interface" to the engine. Those options take some effort but can be fairly easily accommodated. Other options that lie more deeply in the engine are far more difficult to accommodate. Allowing some options will blur the "vision" behind the product while others will require increased flexibility on account of the engine. While "flexibility" is often viewed as a positive aspect, it always increases complexity which increases opportunities for defects and testing effort which can ultimately kill a product. Having a crystal clear vision requiring less flexibility increases the likelihood of product success. I think that is what Colin is alluding to. Being download-able, Wipeout HD can always be changed as long as the cash keeps flowing, however too many "options" can ultimately limit the paths that Wipeout HD and it's DLC can take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chill View Post
    Players can learn to become a nuisance for fun if they wanted ... Online wasn't built for learning, that's what the game was built for. Online was built for experienced players who are in the need for more competition!!
    That's why I have never indulged in any on-line gaming (so far). Because "playing with strangers" can be an uneven experience which is a waste of time. I'd guess the most successful on-line gaming sessions are between "friends". In order to meet these "friends" go to a a suitable on-line board like the WipeoutZone and behave and conduct "yourself" in a reasonable and responsible manner - you'll probably meet some people who are fun to race with. "Friends" may share a common interest but their level of skill can still vary - they all deserve to have fun in the same race.

  20. #60
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    I get that people don't want respawns, but think of it this way.

    Wipeout HD has respawns, which means more newer owners of the game decide to stick around and get better, because they can continue to play online without spending a ton of time on the sideline.

    Which means that the game has a larger online community.

    Which means that Sony greenlights another DLC pack or maybe a whole new Wipeout game because it is making them money.

    Which means we have a new Wipeout game coming out thanks to all those scrubs who think respawns are a necessary part of online gaming.

    Seriously, there is a reason all the most successful online games stay successful. They give players rewards for developing skill, and make the game fun to play while that skill is developing. The whole idea of "this game is really hard, deal with it" no longer works. Ninja Gaiden 2 while loved by the hardcore, is not as successful as other action games, because it adopts this attitude. It's sales suffer big time.
    Last edited by Rubix42; 23rd September 2008 at 03:20 AM.

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