WipeOut Pure is better than WipeOut Pulse

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

only tracks that have serious glitches would be objectively bad? no thats not true at all.

It's absolutely true.

what is the purpose of the bridge in Outpost 7? its supposed to be a shortcut but you don't really save time on it, do you? i find on anything but Venom its not worth going on.

The bridge does kind of suck (except on Venom... which means it's not an objective flaw), yes, but it hardly ruins the entire track, because you can simply not go on it. And even with that flaw, O7 is still way better than boring Moa Therma.

vague? i didn't think i needed to be descriptive for something obvious. De Konstruct is a mess visually speaking. there is junk all over the background, which makes navigating the track confusing. and ultimately feels claustrophobic. it has good ideas, looking at other racers above you was obviously the main intent of the track, but the rest of it is cluttered junk visually speaking.

and the split on the Black run. really, you can't think of a better application of a mag strip split? there are so many more creative ways. and thats a fundamental problem i have with some of the tracks. they lack creativity.

Well that's just your perception. It's not obvious, because I never found it confusing at all. The White run is one of the simplest tracks in the game, but still has a few interesting corners and barrel rolls. The Black run is quite tricky, but well designed. What's wrong with the split? The use of the magstrip is simple and effective - you either use it to go low or stay off it to go high, and it wasn't clear which was actually faster for quite a long time, which is great (in the end it turned out that you can swerve off the magstrip at the right moment to start a high risk barrel roll chain on the top section). Compare it to Moa Therma, which you've praised for its effective use of magstrips - well what effect do those magstrips actually have? A big loop that doesn't serve any real purpose in terms of gameplay (even less than the bridge in Outpost 7).

@Al
Barrel rolls get less responsive when the CPU is struggling, but I find they're still possible on ofw with other ships onscreen, you just need to start the motion earlier (sometimes just before you've actually left the ground! ). But yeah, the emulator lets you set the clock speed higher than 333MHz. Not tried that for myself yet, but if it works, you can probably get constant 60fps.

[applepiejr]

It's absolutely true.

absolutely not. so you say Moa Therma is boring yet there are no serious bugs so according to you there should be nothing wrong with it. oh but you never said it was bad so that doesn't count? i never said any track in Pulse was bad either so honestly i have no idea what you are getting at.

The bridge does kind of suck (except on Venom... which means it's not an objective flaw), yes, but it hardly ruins the entire track, because you can simply not go on it. And even with that flaw, O7 is still way better than boring Moa Therma.

of course its an objective flaw, every track should be designed to work well on every speed class, especially Phantom (some say the definitive WipEout experience). so yea the bridge on Outpost 7 objectively fails in this regard.

and Moa boring? how?

bends (vertical and horizontal change)? check
decent number of speed pads? check
BRs? check
interesting visual design (ocean, islands, futuristic buildings, NO CLUTTER)? check

really i'm not sure what you need Moa to be to not be boring. narrower? its not supposed to be hard to play. a track doesn't need to be hard to play in order for it to be hard to master.

and no don't say hard/obstacles/pain/suffering is what makes a great track because that is crazy. Moa Therma has its place even for veterans. its one of the few tracks where you can make 2 perfect laps but have vastly different times. the difference? racing line, its crucial on a wide track like Moa.

A.I. too easy? theres a mod for that

Well that's just your perception. It's not obvious, because I never found it confusing at all. The White run is one of the simplest tracks in the game, but still has a few interesting corners and barrel rolls. The Black run is quite tricky, but well designed. What's wrong with the split? The use of the magstrip is simple and effective - you either use it to go low or stay off it to go high, and it wasn't clear which was actually faster for quite a long time, which is great (in the end it turned out that you can swerve off the magstrip at the right moment to start a high risk barrel roll chain on the top section). Compare it to Moa Therma, which you've praised for its effective use of magstrips - well what effect do those magstrips actually have? A big loop that doesn't serve any real purpose in terms of gameplay (even less than the bridge in Outpost 7).

i read enough posts of people complaining about the visuals on De Konstruct to feel confident in my statements. i don't really have a problem with the layout of the white run per say but the split on the black run is so underwhelming. a narrow corridor? really? that whole area seemed like an afterthought. like they added it after they designed the original layout. let me clarify, there is really nothing wrong with it! but its underwhelming in design! it could have been better. i can imagine better. you can't?

the loop on Moa is a visual element that looks nice

the bridge on Outpost 7 is a gameplay element that no one wants to go on and gets in your way

not sure why you are trying to compare elements with different purposes.

@Al
Barrel rolls get less responsive when the CPU is struggling, but I find they're still possible on ofw with other ships onscreen, you just need to start the motion earlier (sometimes just before you've actually left the ground! ). But yeah, the emulator lets you set the clock speed higher than 333MHz. Not tried that for myself yet, but if it works, you can probably get constant 60fps.

interesting, yea the problem does not exist on the emulator (PPSSPP). after 30+ hours on PC i haven't encountered that bug. the emulator runs the game at 60 FPS by default, i find that interesting because we know on a real PSP with OFW the game uses 222 MHz and its definitely not 60 FPS. more like 40-50 FPS depending on the mode. using CFW and 333 MHz we see around 60 FPS but the emulator should by default use 222 MHz yet the game runs at a perfect 60 FPS which i find to be strange. even the CFW PSP @ 333 MHz probably has drops under 60. there should be some kind of drop or fluctuation if it was true emulation (and no applied FPS cheats), mimicking the refresh rate of the real PSP at 222 MHz.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

As I said, I don't consider any track in Pulse objectively bad, because I'm able to recognise the difference between opinions and facts.
Moa has no interesting or challenging corners, and it doesn't really punish playing badly. And no, it's really not that hard to set consistent lap times on it. So I find it boring. It has its place in the game, but it doesn't have much to offer me. Outpost 7, on the other hand, has a great deal to offer me, and an almost-useless bridge I don't have to go on isn't going to change that.

i read enough posts of people complaining about the visuals on De Konstruct to feel confident in my statements.

And I've spent enough time actually playing the game to feel confident in mine.
You seem very focused on the visuals, particularly the backgrounds. To each their own, but I'm far more interested in actual gameplay, and De Konstruct plays very well on both runs. And I quite like the way it looks anyway. You consider the claustrophobic feel a bad thing, while I think it suits the track.


Actually, Sony did increase the default clock speed from the original 222Mhz to 266Mhz with one of the 2.xx firmwares, and then later allowed developers to use the full 333Mhz, but never unlocked it for older games, even though it clearly makes them run better. So Pure and Pulse run at 266MHz on a PSP on up to date official firmware.
I may be mistaken, but I think the emulator is clocked at 333MHz by default on all games. It's set to that on mine, and I don't remember changing it.

[applepiejr]

Moa has no interesting or challenging corners,

not true, it has a few challenging corners, and one with a tricky BR… well, maybe not tricky for you and me but its not as straight-forward as doing a BR from a regular jump. on the black run its much harder to perform and its so satisfying when you get it.

and it doesn't really punish playing badly. And no, it's really not that hard to set consistent lap times on it.

and thats a bad thing? the best players still have plenty to accomplish on the track to set themselves apart from newbies.

And I've spent enough time actually playing the game to feel confident in mine.

i apologize for that statement, sounds arrogant. what i meant to say is i've seen plenty of people complain about it as well so i'm definitely not the only person. its one of the only tracks in the game people complained about the visuals - tells you something.

You seem very focused on the visuals, particularly the backgrounds. To each their own, but I'm far more interested in actual gameplay, and De Konstruct plays very well on both runs. And I quite like the way it looks anyway. You consider the claustrophobic feel a bad thing, while I think it suits the track.

alright your falling back to some kind of opinion shrugging. my statement was not meant to be subjective so if you find that to be wrong explain it with at least some detail "i like it so that means your statement is opinion too" undermines the discussion.

i wouldn't even say the visual design of De Konstruct is bad, more like a missed opportunity. you have this twisty turny track going through a huge futuristic city and the best you can show me is metal junk near the track? there is very little sense of depth. there isn't much distance between the foreground and background in many parts of the track.

visuals are very important, its one of the reasons i fell in love with WipEout. its one of the only racing game series that blends precision gameplay with art. so visual design is very important and if you don't think so, maybe this isn't a discussion for you.

I may be mistaken, but I think the emulator is clocked at 333MHz by default on all games. It's set to that on mine, and I don't remember changing it.

its not. default is… well… the default. same as a real PSP. the game dictates clock speed on default setting. i read this on a PPSSPP thread.

Actually, Sony did increase the default clock speed from the original 222Mhz to 266Mhz with one of the 2.xx firmwares, and then later allowed developers to use the full 333Mhz, but never unlocked it for older games, even though it clearly makes them run better. So Pure and Pulse run at 266MHz on a PSP on up to date official firmware.

for WipEout Pulse, one of the developers (may have been intoxicated or colin or both i don't remember) said it runs at 222 MHz.

so again this is dictated by the game. i don't think there is any firmware update that forces any game to run at a faster clock speed. the firmware update only allows developers to use higher clock speeds in their games if they choose to implement it. (i think) sony would not force games to run at a higher clock speed because it could have unforeseen problems. why should a developer have to go back and patch a game that breaks because the CPU clock changed? the chances of this happening are small but with thousands of games it might be a problem for a few.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

Well I've never found any of Moa's corners challenging, and only the turbo-assisted barrel roll onto the magstrip is tricky to set up. I also did somewhere between 5500 and 6000 online races when the servers were still up, and Moa stood out as the track where players who were otherwise clearly slower could keep up, and if they got lucky enough with weapons, even win. When I say it's not punishing enough, it's another way of saying it doesn't reward skill enough. Of course that's a bad thing in a competitive game.

I'm not "falling back" to opinions, it's been my position the whole time. De Konstruct isn't the best looking track, but it does what it's meant to do, which is feel like a race through a cramped "under construction" section of a city.
I do think visuals matter, just nowhere near as much as gameplay. It isn't a discussion for me? You entered the thread to respond to a guy talking about gameplay.


Yeah, I checked again, and it is indeed "default" by default. But it seems that the setting isn't actually functioning - I just tested Pulse at 125Mhz, expecting a slideshow, but it played exactly the same as 333MHz and even 500MHz!
Pulse definitely runs at 266MHz on a normal PSP on official firmware, and I've never read Colin or any of the other developers say otherwise. Maybe you're thinking of an old post about Pure?
I guess can understand Sony having concerns about forcing 333MHz for all games without testing, but they could have at least have put an option in the PSP system settings (with a "software is not guaranteed to function correctly" warning or something). And they don't seem to have a problem with allowing the Vita's PSP emulator to run old games without the restrictions.

[applepiejr]

Well I've never found any of Moa's corners challenging, and only the turbo-assisted barrel roll onto the magstrip is tricky to set up. I also did somewhere between 5500 and 6000 online races when the servers were still up, and Moa stood out as the track where players who were otherwise clearly slower could keep up, and if they got lucky enough with weapons, even win. When I say it's not punishing enough, it's another way of saying it doesn't reward skill enough. Of course that's a bad thing in a competitive game.

your point being that matches are close enough that more often than not weapons make the difference between winning and losing. fair enough.
but honestly when it comes to true competition, you need LAN to remove latency issues. Wi-Fi play is casual.

I'm not "falling back" to opinions, it's been my position the whole time. De Konstruct isn't the best looking track, but it does what it's meant to do, which is feel like a race through a cramped "under construction" section of a city.
I do think visuals matter, just nowhere near as much as gameplay. It isn't a discussion for me?

its not opinions, but opinion shrugging, as in "i like this" or "i like that". why??? opinion or not there are reasons for every decision, and if you can't give reasons in detail then i guess you don't feel very strongly about it.

De Konstruct looks fine. its just that in a fairly strong track selection, that and Outpost 7 come off as the most underwhelming. - does not mean bad, it means relative to the rest.
and De Kon really would have benefited from some translucent track sections. again, huge futuristic city, but we see very little of it.

You entered the thread to respond to a guy talking about gameplay.

well, i did mention visual design in the first post. and the video i put was supposed to remind people what amazing visual design looks like.

Yeah, I checked again, and it is indeed "default" by default. But it seems that the setting isn't actually functioning - I just tested Pulse at 125Mhz, expecting a slideshow, but it played exactly the same as 333MHz and even 500MHz!

yea same thing happens in Pure, its very strange.

Pulse definitely runs at 266MHz on a normal PSP on official firmware, and I've never read Colin or any of the other developers say otherwise. Maybe you're thinking of an old post about Pure?

these were the posts i remember:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...peed#post75665
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...peed#post75694

but your right. i misinterpreted those statements as in oh i guess its a 222 MHz game, meanwhile there was already the firmware update allowing 266 MHz so i guess they settled on 266 MHz, even though they never stated exactly which clock speed they used.

I guess can understand Sony having concerns about forcing 333MHz for all games without testing, but they could have at least have put an option in the PSP system settings (with a "software is not guaranteed to function correctly" warning or something). And they don't seem to have a problem with allowing the Vita's PSP emulator to run old games without the restrictions.

i can't confirm that but makes sense, right? no i think adding an official option for people would over complicate things, i understand why they didn't. frankly the damn thing should have ran @ 333 MHz at launch. it would have been a more impressive piece of technology and we probably would have seen more PS2 ports considering the PSP @ 333 MHz is actually almost as powerful as a PS2, within the ballpark anyway (given the fact the PSP only has to render half the resolution). PS2 ports like Battlefront II ran like ass on PSP because of the 222 MHz. on 333 MHz it actually ran about as well as the PS2 version.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

Well for serious competition, you play in time trial/speed lap/zone mode, not mess about in multiplayer. Those modes were where I spent most of my time on Pulse.
Online mode was fine when it was working properly (as long as you avoided contact with other ships for the most part), but yeah, not very reliable.

That's correct, I don't feel very strongly about it. I appreciate the details, but they're not my focus, gameplay is.


Yeah, it definitely should have always been 333MHz, but I guess they were worred about battery life compared to the DS (because of their genius idea of using optical media in a handheld ), thought 2/3 power would be enough because it was still more than the DS had, and made the wrong call.