Ship physics for Pulse - Analysing the past

[xdirex]

I'd like to start off by saying that I have been a HUGE Wipeout fan for a very long time now. I initially got hooked on 2097, amazed at the 'next gen' graphics, wicked music, and fluid, fast gameplay that the Playstation was pumping out. I nearly died with anticipation in the leadup to the release of Wipeout 3, and couldn't believe it when it surpassed all of my expectations and delivered even more breathtaking visuals, beautiful music, and most importantly, more amazing controls.

I've since spent a lot of time on nearly every iteration of the Wipeout franchise, from the original, to the N64 version, through to Pure on the PSP. Actually, the only version I haven't spent a huge amount of time in is Fusion, because I've never properly owned a PS2 (I have borrowed from friends quite a bit to play it though).

I was really excited to hear that Wipeout Pure was being developed for the PSP, and that was the reason I bought the system in the first place. Pure is an awesome game, and definitely a great change in direction from Fusion, which I thought was a real departure from the series (enjoyable, but a true 'Wipeout' in my opinion).

So, now that I've learned that Wipeout Pulse is in production, I thought it was about time I put my thoughts forward on how the control system and ship physics have changed over the years.

I like Pure, I really do, but something about the ships handling and physics just doesn't captivate me as much as the classics (I'm mostly referring to 2097 and 3/SE when I say 'classics'). They seem to have lost that fluid, floaty feel that made the handling feel so amazing in the first place. The ships used to really feel like they were gliding (or cutting) through air, like sleek, nimble aerodynamic crafts should.

In Pure, the ships just don't have that floaty, gliding feel to them - they feel more like weighty, non-aerodynamic objects that slide through space as though air resistance and gravity don't really matter.

It's extremely hard to put these sensations into words, but I'm sure most people on this forum who have played the series extensively will know the subtle differences that I'm talking about.

I absolutely love the way the airbrakes work in the classics (2097 & 3). When coming in to a tight corner, you can apply an airbrake, turn, and basically slide sideways into the corner (the ship keeps traveling in a straight line, but the tail sweeps out, pivoting the ship so it's facing into the corner), at which point you'd release the airbrake and shoot off in the direction that your ship is now facing, with barely any speed loss.

Pure doesn't really do this. You don't get that nice, sideways sweeping action. Instead, the airbrakes just reduce the turning circle of the ship, with very minimal swinging of the tail. It's still fast, and fun, but it just doesn't have that nice, plausible, floaty, gliding feel to it (sorry for the overuse of adjectives, but I'm really trying to get my point across(!)).

I've attached a diagram to illustrate what I'm trying to say here. You can see that in the left diagram (2097 & 3), the tail swings out a lot more and the ship gets a nice sideways sweep to it, whereas in the diagram on the right (Pure), the ship basically just turns in a tighter circle. Please note that my comments are generalized for each game, and I'm not referring to any one particular ship/team.



Anyhow, I guess what I'm trying to say is - it would be my dream come true if the classic Wipeout physics (the thing that made Wipeout the truly amazing series that it is, above and beyond the graphics and the music) were brought back in Wipeout Pulse.

I know there are reasons for changes in each new game. Things such as accessibility (making the game fun and less frustrating for newcomers), and new features (ship upgrades, gravity on sloped surfaces), but these things should compliment what was already great about a game, not dilute it.

There are a number of other things I'd like to comment on regarding Pulse, but I'll save them for another post, because this one's dragged on long enough and I don't want to take away from my main point here.

Colin and Studio Liverpool, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Please don't take any of my comments negatively - Pure was awesome, from the graphics, to the tracks, to the downloadable content, to the multiplayer, it was quality stuff all the way!

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Also, I've been browsing this forum for many years, so please ingnore the fact that this is my first post and my account was only registered a month ago!

[cybrpnk]

I agree with you here mate. The physics of old, 2097 in particular gave us a greater sense of 'anti-gravity'. I think from Wip3out onwards, controls became 'tighter' so to speak, presumably in a effort to provide tighter and more precise racing. However, I loved the feeling 2097 where you literally was racing on a cushion of air. If Studio Liverpool can successfully replicate this in Pulse and bring so much more to the AG racing table, I strongly believe they have a firmer foundation for the next-gen PS3 WipEout and many more to come...

I have no complaints on Pure, don't get me wrong, it's just a different breed of anti-gravity racing. I have adapted, I have evolved and I am having a blast...

Maybe Studio Liverpool can implement some kind of 'tightness control' level customizer in options, I feel they can cater for the old school and the next generation of anti gravity racers...

[benjahman]

I think you're right in your analyse, the sensations of slides in a turn you had in 2097 (like a soap sliding in a sink) are not the same in Pure but we can't say that it's not "floaty" anymore , the physics in Pure are really impressive and I don't really know whitch sensation I prefer.
The slides in 2097 are nice because even before to pass a turn, your ship is already facing the next direction to take, but those slides also make you lose time, so...
No, Pure is definitly awesome in everything, I had too many bad surprises in the past with other opus like WO3 and fusion (I'm talking about ship handling of course) so imo, there is nothing to change on the handling for the future Pulse.
Really sorry about my english, it is really awfull.

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[QUOTE=Maybe Studio Liverpool can implement some kind of 'tightness control' level customizer in options, I feel they can cater for the old school and the next generation of anti gravity racers...[/QUOTE]

Great idea orange!

[Sausehuhn]

H xdirex, welcome to the forums... if I can say so

I see your point and I think you described really well what's so different with Pure's handling. And yes, I have to agree that the old handling is indeed more floaty and yes, I want it back.
I like Pure so much (maybe it's the best WipEout ever) and the handling of the game is really good, but after all I like the old handling better.
I played WO3:SE on my PSP and I can tell you the old handling is no problem in terms of playability (the small screen is no barrier for good racing).
Though, as much as I love the old handling, it does have a few bad characteristics like being too floaty sometimes (going off of the track too much) or going up and down again and again between the track and the ceiling within in one second when you bump to much in a low tunnel (hope you know what I mean).
But I'm sure these small problems could be fixed so you get a nearly perfect oldschool handling.

Pure's handling is really not bad, but as you already said it feels really not that real. It doesn't feel like a real craft in the air would react when you compare it to the old WipEouts. It's simply not that smooth.

But if SL makes a step back to the old handling (and I hope they do someday somehow), I'm sure they won't with Pulse. The game uses a modified Pure engine, so no hope for a classic handling. Especially not at this development step.
But maybe for the next WipEout.
I would really like SL to read this thread cause the handling is maybe the element that makes a WipEout good, better or worse.

[andy]

I love the handling in wip3out. ^^ So fluid and fun. It is my favourite wipEout.
I can remember saying pure had lost the fluidity of the classics in a thread about airbraking and side stepping. I know exactly what you are talking about. To me they are just so different in terms of gameplay. I hope the handling characteristics of the old games return but I doubt it will do so in pulse because it uses roughly the same engine and gameplay as pure like Sausehuhn said.

[Mark Of Insanity]

I haven't played Pure, but this sounds like a case of the weight being centred at, well, the centre. In the early WipEouts, the weight was centred at the back, creating more swing through the airbraked corners. I know Fusion had the weight centred at the centre, but I don't know about Pure. (Admittedly I have not played either).

I love the floaty feeling in the original WO. There are a great deal of jumps and it's really comfortable to jump off a hill only to fall back down and bounce up and down again. Elastic! No, but it's great, and quite realistic really. The Anti-Gravity things (the units that keep the racers above the ground) would essentially be pushing down at the ground but because of gravity, it would keep falling down, resulting it perpetual uplift.

Another related comment to do with Mag-Strips. If Magstrips act as I percieve they do (pull the racer closer to the track with magnets) then there would be even alot of forces between the ground and the racer.
Somehow, if this could be noticed and have some notable effect, that would really feel correct. For example, when the magstrips are no longer on the track, the racer would bounce up a slight bit higher than the usual height and then smoothly lower back down to the normal height.

[xdirex]

Thanks for the warm welcome, although I have been lurking around for years!

Yes, Wip3out is also my favourite game in the series (favourite of all time, actually, although followed closely by 2097). In my opinion, they really nailed the handling in that game - I think it had all the good characteristics of 2097's physics, but felt a little more refined, as though there were more factors being counted into each movement.

I appreciate that there were moments when the floatyness could be an issue, like when you're going too fast into the third tunnels on either Sampa Run or Stanza Inter, but this can be avoided by letting up on the thrust a little and adjusting pitch. Also, I realise that the huge boosts off the last jump in P-Mar Project may have been pushing the capabilities of the game engine a little far, but I kind of like the fact that you're pushing the game so far that it doesn't really know how to cope with what you're doing (and slapping your ship back onto the track after taking two big corners 300m in the air is an amazing feeling)! I especially like the swaying movement your ship does when it's so high off the track (P-Mar Project chicanes and the final jump in Hi-Fumi in particular).

The only real issue I have with W30's handling is that very occasionally, when you're going pretty fast and side-scraping around a corner, all of a sudden it will just snag, whereas a similar situation in 2097 would let you get away with it.

In my first post, by no means am I trying to say that every ship in Pulse (I know it's probably a little far on in the development cycle, but I'll use this as an example) should handle like they did back in 2097/2116, but maybe some of the veteran ships of the series could veer more towards this style of handling, while the newer additions to the series could have the more recent Pure style handling, and some ships fit in between.

I found many of the ships in Pure to be quite similar to each other. While the game was nicely balanced so that most teams had a fighting chance (Triakis excluded), I also found that I never really became 100% at home with any one team's characteristics.

I played WO3:SE on my PSP and I can tell you the old handling is no problem in terms of playability (the small screen is no barrier for good racing).

I've recently played through all three PSX Wipeouts on my PSP, and you're right, the small screen doesn't affect the playablity of the classics at all. Although I must admit, when I first got my PSP and Wipeout Pure, the small screen really threw me off - I didn't know if I'd ever be able to get used to it. No problems now though.

I haven't played Pure, but this sounds like a case of the weight being centred at, well, the centre...

...If Magstrips act as I percieve they do (pull the racer closer to the track with magnets) then there would be even alot of forces between the ground and the racer. Somehow, if this could be noticed and have some notable effect, that would really feel correct. For example, when the magstrips are no longer on the track, the racer would bounce up a slight bit higher than the usual height and then smoothly lower back down to the normal height.

I think your comments are pretty accurate, the center of gravity does seem to be centered, or even slightly to the front (the way the tail snaps in when you release the airbrakes) in Pure, when compared to earlier titles. I also really like your suggestion about the ships springing back up after the mag-lock forces are released. A nice little detail that would really add to the realism and AG feel.

[yawnstretch]

Have to say I totally agree.

I too love Pure to bits and Im sure pulse will be pretty much the same as Pure.

I remember quality assurance being one of the issues here with extra floatiness possibly leading to glitches.

To me floatiness matters more - I honestly don't care about a few glitches if the ship floats "naturally". Wipeout 1 and 2097 hit the mark with the gravity effects of the ship. A nice jaunty ride.

[Dogg Thang]

In Pure, it seems that the pivot point is at the nose which could just be a camera thing but, when you notice it, it feels like you're steering a tiny spot at the front of the craft and the rest is just swinging around to catch up, rather than feeling like you're steering the whole craft. The handling in Pure, for me, works well but the nose-lock is a little odd.

Having said that, I can't imagine they'll overhaul the physics for Pulse, given that Pure was so popular and messing with physics is a whole can of worms. Yes, I'd love the feel of 2097 back but I'd also be very happy with more of the same.

[rdmx]

Maybe if SL actually wanted to implement 2097 style handling, they could put in a menu after selecting ship asking whether you wanted 'normal' (which is pure style handling) or 'extreme' (which is 2097).

And btw, there are already 6 pulse trailers uploaded on youtube by users ^^.
Me, that's 7.

[Rapier Racer]

I would prefer not returning to classic handling simply because I hate the old style air brakes if you can even call them brakes, hold them for a fraction of a second to long and it pulls your ship into the wall. Thats just what I want my break to do not actually slow me down any just pull me sideways

[q_dmc12]

But....thats..what..airbrakes do...

They create drag, slowing down one side while the other keeps going, swinging the ship around.

played any flight sims lately?

[JABBERJAW]

As far as the floaty problems were in those tunnels in wipeout 3 is concerned, it was a pal problem. Pal is slightly floatier than the ntsc versions from the beginning, and that extra float causes those particular problems. The ntsc versions still have plenty of float though. How do I get wo3se on my psp? PM me if you can

[Dav657]

Pm me to if Please about the wipeouts on psp. Anyways i hope they bring back some of the 2097 physics. and combine them with W3 that would be awesome. Doesnt really matter to be to be honest. As long as it has online that would make my day!

[Rapier Racer]

Yes but dmc what I mean is I got no feeling of slowdown on the older games I don't like the way you have to use the brakes on say Wipeout 3 half an hour before you actually make the turn, unlike Pures system which allows for totally last minute decisions/late reactions. Wipeout is not supposed to be a flight sim so I don't want it to act like one, I wanna keep the shall we say unrealistic? effect the breaks have in Pure

[phl0w]

unlike Pures system which allows for totally last minute decisions/late reactions

Either I'm the world's most AG-racer or you haven't piloted a Piranha on Phantom yet. Last minute decisions? If you don't brake early enough, read: into the apex of a corner, you'll meet the wall faster than you can say: unrealistic handling.

[kei]

Hi guys,

It is always difficult to analyse these sort of things without having the actual code available to dig through, but concerning the 'drifting' / side-way behavior of the airbrakes in the older Wipeout's I feel confident enough to make a comment. In Pure the air-brakes seem to add onto the normal steering with the D-Pad or A-Stick giving you a higher reach in the speed of which you're steering. The Z and Y ( in a Y=up world ) orientation of your ship is then adjusted from this variable. In the older Wipeout's it works a little different. The normal steering and air brakes are detached from each other, with the steering influencing your ship over it's Z axis solely, and the air brakes linked to the Y rotation of your ship giving that side-way drifting effect. Now this could actually be exclusively a visual difference, though I wouldn't be surprised if the air-brakes have a slightly different influence on the physics as well. In any case, i do prefer the separated rotation of the ship as seen in the classic games too

Also, the difference in floaty-ness / bounciness of the physics between the PAL and NTSC versions of Wip3out is caused by the 10Hz loss which likely equals a identical reduction of physics calculation cycles. Lesser cycles means that you can travel further downwards into the track before you'll be pushed back, and the closer you get to the track the greater this force will be obviously, hence the bouncing. A similar effect can be seen when experiencing frame-rate drops during multiplay in Pure. A solution would be to have the physics calculated with a rate independent of the rendering, but this is definitely more resource intensive then just having one code cycle per frame.

But there might be something else going on as well. This is Pure speculation however I suspect that in Pure the physics behave a little different while you're in the air from when you're 'on' the track. More in a fashion of the physics in F-Zero .. only then with the track having a hoover influence range, while the older games followed one physics rule under all circumstances. That way it is easier to counter drops from high altitude without bouncing of the track multiple times, even though this could be considered 'cheating' ( or helping ) the physics a little. But since I'm by no means sure about this, maybe one of the Liverpool associates could give some insight ?

In any case, interesting discussion, so keep it coming

Later ~
K

[Lance]

''Pure speculation''

[Rapier Racer]

or you haven't piloted a Piranha on Phantom yet

Check my avatar

But seriously I have used Piranha but not often I was not thinking about every team in the game, only mine

Have you ever tried using side-shift with that Piranha?

[phl0w]

Have you ever tried using side-shift with that Piranha?

Is this W'O'' or F-Zero?
Side-shifting makes no sense, no matter what physics you apply. So I don't use it.

I did try some last minute decisions though. Which means I used the airbrakes a tad late and saw how I still could make the corner. Didn't work without letting go of the accelerator.
Of course I'm speaking of sharp, narrow corners like on BlueRidge, Chenghou, or Citta.

But as I'm not very good at this game, advice and opinions are much appreciated.