Pure has beaten me.

[Dogg Thang]

Yep, I'm a broken man.

142 Gold medals. Try as I might, I cannot get the gold in the Phantom Classic Tournament or the Ascension Tournament. I have no idea how many times I have tried these and end up with silver every time. Sometimes it's due to a random weapons fire (Manor Top is a write off if you are hit with a weapon at the wrong part of the track) but often it's simply due to me not racing well enough - where I'll do great and smack into a wall on the last lap going from 1st to 6th in an instant. I also find I'm getting stuck in a 5th/6th weapons trap where there is weapons fire and craft ahead and in front and I just can't break free. Not because the AI is just nasty - simply because I haven't quite got the knack.

In many ways it makes me realise that the AI in the first three games was a real cheat - the way they would space out so far was quite unrealistic. It was nice from a racing perspective as you never felt oppressed but it was a cheat nonetheless. The AI in Pure is written much better and, as a result, is tougher.

I am a sad shadow of a man today.

Maybe I'll have a break and play Metal Gear Acid. I've had it since it came out and haven't even put it in my PSP because I was playing Wipeout so much!

[Egg]

The main difference in PurE is that everyone starts on the grid together. It's been a while since I really battered WipEouts 1-3, but I'm sure it cheated and put everyone around the track ahead of you before you started.

That was obviously due to technical limitations on the PS1 ( couldn't display too many ships ), but it made the gameplay very different.

BTW Foxy and COlin - enjoying your champers?

[eLhabib]

Maybe I'll have a break and play Metal Gear Acid. I've had it since it came out and haven't even put it in my PSP because I was playing Wipeout so much!

that's the spirit, man!

[Concept]

I've not tried Beta or Ascention yet on Phantom. Although I suspect they're going to require lots of luck and lots of skill.

If I had to aim one criticism at Pure then it would be that in the series' highpoints, 2097/XL and Wipeout 3/Special Edition didn't require luck along with skill. If you were good enough then you wouldn't be severly punished by things outside of your control.

Phantom in Pure seems to require two separate things in place to properly succeed.

I'm not going to let Phantom rest though. Not only until the game is complete will I be satisfied.

[Concept]

Just thinking briefly in two areas... frustration could have so easily have been avoided in Phantom.

1) I don't know why the decision was made to allow the CPU to use Quakes. I can't count the amount of times I've been in the lead and been knocked back to 8th (or killed) on the last lap due to another ship using Quake. While I can understand it can help if you're at the back of the pack, more often than not Quake can completely ruin a race, and the championship if points are tight at the top.

And this brings me to my next point:

2) Like 2097/XL, Pure really would have benefitted in terms of easing player frustration if there was a three-life continue option. It can be demoralising to be on the third (out of four) or sixth (out of eighth) race and find you have to start all over again because of a fault that isn't even your own. If you were given the choice of a three-life restart, then this would have helped matters immeasurably. Having said that, I do realise it may have hurt the game's longevity, but my answer to that would be is that the longevity seems artificial in places when you're being punished for things you have no control over.

[eLhabib]

The main difference in PurE is that everyone starts on the grid together. It's been a while since I really battered WipEouts 1-3, but I'm sure it cheated and put everyone around the track ahead of you before you started.

well, but it's not entirely fair and even in purE either, or how do you explain the enormous speed boost all the enemy ships have at the start of the first round... it might just be me doing something wrong (but I don't think so), but even when I manage to fly by the whole field right after the GO with the initial speed boost, and even if I fly perfectly hitting all boost pads, the AI will still come and overtake me again (with a rather big surplus of speed, too), and I almost ever fall back into 4th-7th rank again.

not that it bothers me, it has to be this way in order for the field to spread out a bit, but don't say it's perfectly fair this time around :wink:

Like 2097/XL, Pure really would have benefitted in terms of easing player frustration if there was a three-life continue option. It can be demoralising to be on the third (out of four) or sixth (out of eighth) race and find you have to start all over again because of a fault that isn't even your own. If you were given the choice of a three-life restart, then this would have helped matters immeasurably. Having said that, I do realise it may have hurt the game's longevity, but my answer to that would be is that the longevity seems artificial in places when you're being punished for things you have no control over.

actually, I'm really glad the three life system is gone. a real tournament with points for position is much mor realistic and also much more forgiving in my view.

[Concept]

The thing which is irritating me on Phantom is that you're not allowed to get ideas above your station. It's something that happens a lot in Pure.

Whereas skill in earlier Wipeout's would be rewarded through increased positions early on, if you find yourself unexpectedly in first place on the first two laps in the higher speed classes, expect a whole manner of weapons to be thrown at you. Quakes, disruptor bolts, missiles.

It feels as if the whole AI is ganging up together and gunning for you, when you're in a place you're not supposed to be during an early part of the race.

This isn't something that happened in earlier Wipeouts, and while it's there to seemingly ensure races are tight, it can also have the adverse effect of killing off your own competition to it. Another problem is that disruptor bolts generally do serious damage to your ship, yet when you fire back, it barely seems to have an impact on the CPU crafts.

Make no mistake, the AI in Pure is the best seen in any Wipeout game, and for the first three speed classes, it works out great. But there is a side-effect, in that the later aggression can seem to unfairly punish the player later on. It's infuriating to be racing along in a tight pack, only for then to have someone drop a bomb on you from two feet away. There should have been a limitation on the proximity of distance in which bombs are planted immediately in front of the player in my view, along with a restriction on CPU Quake usage in the last two speed classes.

Phantom is infuriatingly tough, and while I enjoy a challenge and it's what I respect about the Wipeout series, the challenge here isn't entirely based on skill. It's based on trial and error, and endurance in parts.

[Concept]

actually, I'm really glad the three life system is gone. a real tournament with points for position is much mor realistic and also much more forgiving in my view.

It may be more realistic, but it certainly isn't forgiving on the player. Either that, or Pure could have had offered the player the ability to save half way through Ascention. Losing the whole tournament on race six or seven based on something that isn't the player's fault is unfair.

[eLhabib]

hm, actually, I haven't had any of these problems yet. when I'm in front, I usually stay in front, unless I fly bad, the weapon usage against me doesn't seem to increase. sure there's gonna be more quakes coming your way, but that's only logic. when you're in, say, 6th position, there's only 2 ships behind you who can hit you with a quake, when you're in first, obviously, there are 7 (most of the time), so quakes are gonna be more frequent.

As for the plasma bolt: maybe I'm just lucky, but I have fired a total of 8 plasmas so far (I'd rather use them for shield energy), and 6 of them have been lethal to the enemy, so I can't really say it's too weak by any means.

It may be more realistic, but it certainly isn't forgiving on the player.

it sure is more forgiving! I could'nt see myself beating phantom beta or ascencion if I had to get gold on every race! I don't wanna be restarting the tournament over and over again because I can't get citta nuova on gold even after 3 tries!

[Concept]

I didn't mention the plasma bolt. It's fine.

The disruptor bolt is the problem, in that I generally end up losing control of my craft, yet the CPU rarely has the same problem.

I'm not needlessly knocking the game, because for the most part, I love it. I just think, as has been pointed out elsewhere, that the mechanics needed to be adjusted slightly to accomodate Phantom. The aggressive nature of the AI from rapier needed to be toned down slightly, there needed to be more options open to the player so they don't end up feeling deflated from being beaten at the last stretch from causes not of their making.

The general concerns surrounding the frame-rate at this speed level aren't my main criticisms. It's the fact that it becomes slightly more weapon mad in Phantom, and you have to on your guard for that aspect, when ideally, I think you should be concentrating fully on the race. To give you an example, it comes as a relief to have finished a race without being shot to pieces on a few courses.

I've also generally encountered the problem of being in possession of a powerful weapon such as Quake, using it, and then being hit by a bomb and a few missles in retaliation. Now, while I applaud the AI's reaction to my actions here, they seem to again gang up. It's as if at times they're racing and fighting against each other, which is fantastically immersive... yet on the flip side, change course and work as a team to batter you down, if like I said, you get ideas above your station.

Using powerful weapons to regain the lead can feel as though its one step forward, two steps back, when you know you're going to get lynched for doing so.

Then again, maybe it's just my bad luck.

Let me reiterate, these criticisms don't apply to the whole of Pure - just the slightly unbalanced position I think Phantom is fixed at.

[Concept]

Well, I'm finally past Beta on Phantom now. The bitching shall stop.

I love this game, and even if I still stand by my criticisms of Phantom, there's little to beat the satisfaction of proving your own doubts wrong.

[kaiotheforsaken]

no no no. its not your lousy luck, they A.I. is out for blood, especially if you hurt them to regain the lead. I'm not even at phantom yet and its breaking me lol.

[eLhabib]

you're right. AI is tough in this game. and the disruption bolt really kinda sucks. but when I lose a race, it's mostly my not being able to master the track, and only very few races have been lost due to enemy fire.

[infoxicated]

BTW Foxy and COlin - enjoying your champers?

I didn't get any today (guess I'm not high enough up the food chain for that kind of thing), but I have had some champers tonight after getting the keys for our new house.

[Lance]

.
[wonders what ''champers'' might be]
.

[Concept]

Champagne, presumably.

[Asche XL]

If I had to aim one criticism at Pure then it would be that in the series' highpoints, 2097/XL and Wipeout 3/Special Edition didn't require luck along with skill. If you were good enough then you wouldn't be severly punished by things outside of your control.

Completely agree, the game requires just as much luck as it does skill. In pure it's like ok I have all perfect laps but i hope.....


And, at the start of every race all the ships fly past you, why are they so much faster? Even during a race, i'll be pirana and feisar will soar by, I think someone straps weights to the bottom of my ships before each race.

[Dogg Thang]

From a 'feeling fair' point of view the only weapon I really have a problem with getting hit with is the disruptor bolt and only because the effect isn't cut and dry - by the time you work out what's happening it is usually too late. I feel the effects should have been colour coded so at least you can react accordingly.

And, yes, Concept is right - one bit of bad luck in Pure can destroy a perfectly handled race and it can be very frustrating. Especially, as he pointed out, that the effects your weapons have on the enemy craft don't seem to equate with the effects they have on yours. In Phantom, I have found the only real weapon that can give you an advantage is the quake.

But then much of this is personal choice - I have always preferred the racing element of WO to the weapons battles. That could be very different for other people.

The flip side of this is that the AI does react much more how I think that real racers would - they will try to take out the leader.

By the way, I didn't give up and got Ascension earlier so I only have one more gold to get!

[Lance]

.
Piranha has low thrust/acceleration like the W3O Icaras while Feisar has high thrust/acceleration? [which seems counterintuitive to me because in real life it requires high thrust to obtain high speed and Piranha is definitely high speed]
.

[Seek100]

Not really, it's like gear ratios, set them wide and you'll have a high top speed but lousy acceleration, set them close and you accelerate fast but hit a much lower top speed - it's a simple tradeoff. The thing at the start of WO races isn't about picking a fast ship, it's a game balance thing that has always been there to ensure that you can't ever get the lead straight away, the enemy ships rocket away into the distance far faster than they really could be capable of going then once out of sight they go at their normal speed and you can catch up. This is very noticeable on 2097 and w3o.