About Shortcuts in Pure ..

[zargz]

Judging by the pics the Buildings look pretty Solid :roll:
I hope they are solid enuff to prevent ppl flying thru them! = ShortCuts! :
That way we (wipErs) won't have to Argue about that sh^t Anymore! : : :
There's been pertty Bitter bickering about that around here
Hopefully infoxx can use whatever influence he got to better this aspect of the game
that btw was (is) non existing on wo1.

<out of topic>
Together with no autopilot it's some of the reasons i Adore wo1!!!
also the reason y wo1 is so Hard (well, harder than 2097 & wo3) to complete.
Now that i'm counting them here are 2 more: the music And the Track design of wo1-
imo by Far the Best in the series! _ (underscore) imo!
</out of topic>

Bottomline - wish there won't be Any shortcuts in Pure!

Any other wipErs agree with me?
Let me, us (rest of wipErs) AND ppl @ Leeds Studio know right here!

[yawnstretch]

I enjoyed shortcuts in Wipeout 2097 - when I found my first one years ago I was psyched! (Then I came on here a year or so ago and saw the other shortcuts and felt like a noob!)

Anyway - Id actually prefer to see a Wo1 job on this to be honest. A solid, well-designed game with lots of lovely bounciness! (once they dont make it feel stupid or anything - hopefully these 'new aerial maneouvers' we've been hearing about will be tastefull and not childish).

Interesting thing to note about the PSP though - bright colours look fantastic on it so this may be the reason they're steering away from a dark Wo1 style. I must admit I prefer the more realistic polluted, brown grimly lit wo1 tracks, but if the track downloads thing is decent hopefully 'noir' tracks will be introduced.

What Im concerned about is how all these tracks will be monitored - personally I think the more the better - but it may get a little confusing when people all play on different tracks. (WiFi?) Still I suppose we'll be able to tell people where to get the cool tracks we've downloaded. Man I cant wait!! I just know the PSP is gonna soar over here (I've been waiting for handhelds to be mass-popular for sooo long) and playing wipeout on the train with strangers would rock my world

So, to conclude *ahem* - shortcuts, though loved may be present in some downloadable tracks but hopefully not in the default ones. (Unless theyre deliberately there and hidden - not glitches)

[Lance]

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i definitely prefer no shortcuts; make the game as if it were 'real' racing, where shortcuts are not allowed
.

[lunar]

Well I don`t mind a few daring turbo leaps occasionally - but only if they aren`t through buildings, and if they are planned and obvious to everyone. So overall I second, or is it third, that: NO to shortcuts. Whether they`re glitches or cheesy switches - no thanks.

[Lance]

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if a shortcut is obvious to everyone, then presumably everyone would use it in order to make the fastest time possible; so the portion of the track that was always bypassed would pretty much serve no purpose and ought not to be there IMO. the shortcut iS the track and is therefore not a shortcut at all. a shortcut obvious to all wouldn't give that delicious feeling of having discovered an advantage that no one else knows about. granted that some shortcuts require even more skill than the real trackway, but i am a purist; i think that the track should simply have a standard part of it that is exceptionally difficult, such as the big jump and landing in the curve leading to the tunnel at P-Mar in WO3. that skill is enough; no such thing as going high up through the mountain to the pit lane without driving through the tunnel should ever be possible.

a weakness in WOXL, for instance, is that first sharp right hand curve after the start of Talon's Reach; it is possible to take off at the rise in the straight and just fly to the right while avoiding the track altogether for a long distance. admittedly, the ship slows down so much in the flying process due to missing the double and single and double boostpads that flying that high may not gain time, or may even lose a bit, really
.

[lunar]

What I mean is that I would like to see them preserve the extreme jumps of 2097 and 3SE, but make sure they are part of the official route.

[Dimension]

yeah, I think it would be way too disputed, problem would be that even if peeps on WOZ decide not to use the shortcuts, peeps on these official Intahweb boards might use them, a problem indeed

[zargz]

What I mean is that I would like to see them preserve the extreme jumps of 2097 and 3SE, but make sure they are part of the official route.

well, both 2097 and wo3 tracks are pretty flat so probably 95% or more of these extreme jumps Are shortcuts!
P-mar proj, Gare d'Europa and Vostok island r the trax with jumps that come to my mind fr both 2097 & wo3
think now about the variety in hight and jumps in these tracks--> AltimaVII, Terramax, Korodera, Silverstream,
Arridos V and the track on Mars! and None of them was a shortcut!
btw even the track in japan has a pretty steep downhill after the tunnel
and with that1 we got ALL the trax in wo1!!! only 1 thing i can say (or do) ----->

[rejj]

felt like I'd reply, since we could do with some differing opinions in this thread...

I have absolutely no problem with shortcuts.. they are almost universally more dangerous and/or harder to do than take the long way around the track, so they are a risk/reward payoff for the adventurous. If you are good enough to pull them off, you go faster. If not, you get wuss-wagoned or smash into a wall, both of which are far slower than taking the track.

Also, I don't agree with the argument that "if a shortcut is always taken, then the segment of track you are shortcutting shouldn't be there in the first place". It is a way of catering to different levels of ability in the same track, and a way of catering to the different types of gamers that are playing. Not everyone is after the absolutely fastest time ever... so the game caters to all sorts.

Seems fine and balanced to me.
(the main problem with it I see is that people want to compete whilst imposing unenforceable artificial limitations on themselves.. but that is a different story, for a different time)

[G'Kyl]

Albeit artificial, these limitations are necessary to have some equal ground that makes competition is as fair as possible. Other limitations could include HAVING to take shortcuts... You need SOME rules.
The problem that stands out from the rest is that Wipeout makes it difficult to decide whether a shortcut was intentionally put into the game or whether it is possible because the game engine couldn't afford to render another invisible wall. On the one hand you CAN fly through some buildings and on the other there are walls were no objects stand. What do you do with that when you decide how real the Wipeout world is going to be for you and everyone else?

Ben

[rejj]

Albeit artificial, these limitations are necessary to have some equal ground that makes competition is as fair as possible.

I could not disagree more strongly. Imposing these sort of things leaves things to interpretation and misunderstanding - and lead to unfair competition. How can you prove that I took an "illegal" shortcut, rather than just getting a really good time? How can I prove I didn't?

The only way to be fair is to allow whatever the game lets you do. This may not end up being the same game you thought it was going to be when you first started playing, but you can gurantee that everyone is playing the same game.

Please see this thread from 2003 for prior discussion on this topic.

[G'Kyl]

Fair in the sense of a compromise most players can agree on - in spite of the different attitudes towards short cuts. Now, if someone thinks flying through buildings is, sort of, unrealistic and therefore doesn't do it (so "his Wipeout world" would be a more coherent place), forcing him to do so seems more of a foul agreement to me than saying: "OK, no maybe-unwanted-be-the.designers shortcuts at all." After all, as long as most players agree on that I don't think it can be called unfair.
Proving your times is a different matter. However, most pilots here seem to stick to the rules, so the systems, at the least, works well enough. And by the way, one could still play Wipeout on an emulator and thus have an unfair advantage, inspite of all the other efforts to keep the competition clean. And since you can never be sure, why not trust people from the start? ;)

Ben

[zargz]

Guess it all boils down to how serious / real this game is for us wipers.

I dont mind shortcuts in games like Maro cart, Crash team racing or Speed Punks
I'd even say Speed Punks imo is the 2nd best racer for the psx having also a Great 4player mode!
With goofy characters, voices, music, bright colors and so on
shortcuts belong there and even look like an alternative part of the track, just a bit harder to find.

Now, with the looks and feel of All the Wipeouts as well the Music and Even the Names of the different Leagues -
F3600, F5000, F7200 and F9000 that suggests to me they are the successors of the F1 of today,
the world surrounding the races, however futuristic or dark(2097), showing me a Real world with buildings,
train stations, ship docks, oil drills and so on that look Real and not cartoonish to me.
All of this makes the game feel to me more like a F1, TOCA, RALLY or NASCAR game with all that follows in terms of
rules points seasons ect for example in nascar heat shotcutting gives you an extra lap, in F1- drive through
Another thing ofcource is how seriously wipers take their Wipeout racing seeng many of us are between 25-35!

I know that there's nothing to do about shortcuts in 2097 & wo3. However eliminating or ensuring there are as few
as possible of them in woPure will obliterate Any kind of similar disscutions and make the zone a better place to be!

Thus laying the responsability where it belongs - with the programmers and designers of The Game.
A good idea we had in another thread for keeping the handling of the ships and making sure of no shortcutting
was the one where the checkpoints are not used just as the oldfasioned ones that eliminate you
if you dont get there before time runs out but used on corners that are probably going to be cut and if you
dont pass through them u get an extra lap or something. Another thing, now i'm getting inspired here,
would be to use checkpoints like in rally or motoracing games showing how many seconds from the leader, craft infront
or craft behind you are! OR make these make-sure-no-shotcutting-checkpoints invisible and use another checkpoints for the above.

Bottomline :arrow: No shortcuts, Cheers!

[Rapier Racer]

I like your checkpoint idea, I don't like shortcuts seem a bit unfair, and it should be one way for all! Do you think it would be fair say if one person discovered a sneaky shortcut and used it every time thus putting themselves at then top of a table? No one else could catch them unless they too knew of the shortcut, well basically in my opinion there should be none

[JABBERJAW]

There should definitely be jump shortcuts, But not through walls. Checkpoints are crap because sometimes if you jump so high it picks you up before you hit the lowest point on the track, where you would have landed safely. Just design the tracks so you cannot cut off half of the track.

[lunar]

Do you think it would be fair say if one person discovered a sneaky shortcut and used it every time thus putting themselves at then top of a table?

I think its possible to say that its quite fair to do this, in the strict sense of the word, as everyone has the same game and therefore the same opportunity to explore its limits and find shortcuts. However, to do what you described would be highly unsporting (and ungentlemanly), and if you topped a table with a new shortcut I feel you ought to reveal your method to everyone else. Furthermore, unless you`ve beaten everyone else on the same route you can`t really take any pride in it - unless you think the skill of wipeout is in finding shortcuts rather than flying the route as fast as possible. Only a muppet would believe that. Finding shortcuts isn`t as big and clever as flying faster than a load of people all trying to beat you on a level playing field, metaphorically speaking. Revealing the shortcut to other pilots, and them using it, is the best way to keep the playing field level and to compete with honour.

I think the checkpoint idea would work very well - if the checkpoints were clearly visible and if in order to pass through them you had to penetrate a light beam at and near to ground level. It would be up to you to make sure you pass through it, and if you don`t - "contender disqualified"...... simple and effective with the rules of play coming from within the game and not artificially from the people playing it. There could be no more arguments about whether a particular jump is legal or not. This system could also have cured the respawn cheat problem in WOF, and saved the official times tables from meaninglessness.

[rejj]

Fair in the sense of a compromise most players can agree on - in spite of the different attitudes towards short cuts. Now, if someone thinks flying through buildings is, sort of, unrealistic and therefore doesn't do it (so "his Wipeout world" would be a more coherent place), forcing him to do so seems more of a foul agreement to me than saying: "OK, no maybe-unwanted-be-the.designers shortcuts at all." After all, as long as most players agree on that I don't think it can be called unfair.
Proving your times is a different matter. However, most pilots here seem to stick to the rules, so the systems, at the least, works well enough.

First, please note - I never said that imposing your restrictions is unfair. I simply stated that I think it is silly, and works against the spirit of competition.

Now, in reply to your post... let's assume that we all agree to impose a restriction on our competition that we won't fly through walls. I play the game using the nosecam, many/most other people use chase cam. In my world, if the viewport does not collide with a wall texture, I haven't flown through the wall. What if, however, upon review in chase cam it turns out that the tip of my wing actually did go through the corner of a building I believed I had skillfully avoided? This narrow margin allows me to go 0.01 of a second faster. I never thought I did anything wrong (I probably never even knew!).

That is the main problem with this approach - it is totally unenforceable, even by those playing with the best of intentions.

I like your checkpoint idea, I don't like shortcuts seem a bit unfair, and it should be one way for all! Do you think it would be fair say if one person discovered a sneaky shortcut and used it every time thus putting themselves at then top of a table? No one else could catch them unless they too knew of the shortcut, well basically in my opinion there should be none

Of course that would be fair. Someone just found a new fastest route around the course, and set a new fastest lap. It is up to everyone else to compete.
Whether or not you think this game should have shortcuts is immaterial. The game(s) we have so fare do have shortcuts. Maybe Wipeout Pure won't - it is entirely possible that they will design the game in a way that stops you flying through the roof of a tunnel, or the side of a building. I have no problem with that at all. I'm not saying that a game needs to let me do these things to be fun. What I am saying is that since it is a part of the games we have presently, in order to compete they should be used. Otherwise you aren't playing the game.

There should definitely be jump shortcuts, But not through walls. Checkpoints are crap because sometimes if you jump so high it picks you up before you hit the lowest point on the track, where you would have landed safely. Just design the tracks so you cannot cut off half of the track.

I totally agree. I find big jumps to be fun. Often they are not easy to pull off, are highly rewarding, and are just plain cool. It isn't exactly hard to stop people jumping through walls ... just make them solid. Try to jump through and CLANG, you bounce off with your shields feeling rather angry.

I think the checkpoint idea would work very well

I'd much prefer a design that prohibited the silly things (flying through a building), and let the rest up to you. If you want to cover the course 5km in the air, good on you (if you can do it). That is, of course, just a matter of personal preference.

[lunar]

In regard to checkpoints, I think its very likely that however well Studio Liverpool test the game, they won`t test it as thoroughly as us consumers when we actually get our hands on it: players will find shortcuts, glitches and opportunities to cheat that are missed in testing. These glitches could break the game, as was the case in Fusion, and checkpoints would help stop this happening. Even if all structures are made solid, there is a good chance that it will be possible to find easy shortcuts or respawning points that make a mockery of a track, unless the whole thing takes place in a fifty metre-deep trench, in which case there`ll be no crazy jumps anyway. The WO3SE shortcuts are all pretty hard to do, and are a reward for skilled pilots, but shortcuts aren`t necessarily so, and there could well be places where its easy to take shortcuts that miss half the track. Therefore I think shortcut-style jumps should be included, but only in planned places; and when you reach the end of a lap the CPU checks whether you`ve been through all the checkpoints, and if you haven`t it disqualifies you. I just find it hard to believe that the game will be tested well enough to get by with solid structures as the only defense against glitches. The tracks should be fun enough to fly without us needing to improve them by finding our own new routes, and hopefully will cater to those of us who like to race in the air as much as on the ground.

We don`t want a situation like they have on some SSX Tricky tables I`ve seen, where to get a top time you need to crash "off the world" in a very specific place, and go into a load of random colours and pixels, floating in this abstract cyperspace for a few seconds, then respawning further down the mountain, much sooner than you could have actually raced to the same point. The SSX team never intended anyone to do this I`m sure, and tested the game well I`m equally sure, but if there`s the slightest hole somewhere, someone will find it. A further defense against glitches might be to extend the respawn time to 10 seconds or more, if you happen to fly "out of the game."

Another problem with unplanned shortcuts is that the AI can`t use them - and therefore it becomes too easy to beat them. There`s never been a Wipeout game with seriously challenging AI competitors, and it would be good if Pure could provide them.

[Lance]

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''and when you reach the end of a lap the CPU checks whether you`ve been through all the checkpoints, and if you haven`t it disqualifies you.''
disqualification should happen immediately the checkpoint is missed so you don't waste your time finishing a race you've already lost and which will not produce a time.
.

[lunar]

It would be difficult to have pilots disqualified immediately, because you surely can`t be disqualified for missing checkpoint C, for instance, until you reach checkpoint D without having gone through C. Until you reach D, how would the computer know that you missed C? If you see what I mean? But I agree, there would be no need to wait for the end of the lap, you could be DQ`d at the next checkpoint.