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Thread: What would it take to make a NEW Wipeout ? -Estimate from those who know.

  1. #31
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    Another problem to consider in today's age is the audience.

    People either only buy titles they know (there's a staggering amount of people who admit to only ever owning Fifa, GTA & Call of Duty games), and they only get interested in new IPs that get bucket loads of coverage, such as Overwatch (unless they completely break the rules and are a stroke of creative brilliance, like Minecraft). Even Battlefield had to wait years and years to get to where it is today. Titanfall 2 for example blew COD out the water completely, in every single way, but it's sales were a complete disaster for the simple reason it didn't have the words 'Call of Duty' in it's title. Racing games in general are also not overly successful any more, in fact they're barely ever made! People can get their speed fix from games like GTA now, and create their own track in the process.

    'Pick up and play' is so much more popular than 'steep learning curves, difficult to master'. People want to play games with their friends, not make new ones, and all their friends will unfortunately not be on Wipeout. People also like Clans, eSports, customisation, and character creation, and Wipeout has none of those things.

    Despite all that negativity there is certainly a hole in this genre, and Omega has proved that Wipeout is still easily good enough to fill that hole. They just need to make something new, that's truly brilliant, and shove it in everyone's faces long enough that they all go buy it.

  2. #32
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    Let me explain some of the reasons why the USA might be part of the problem. And before I get too many evil looks, for those who don't know, I am an American and I take no shame in being honest about what I've seen and heard here. First and foremost games aren't what they used to be, I think there is no argument there. I would even say they are worse in general despite better graphics which half of the gamers around here (in the US) find the most important aspect anyways. Many of the gamers here also are PC gamers who don't even have access to a wo title except the original and xl or emulated versions of anything before HD or Fury: that is problem number one. Wipeout is gorgeous, but Horizon Zero Dawn it is not. That, and it isn't on Steam which is HUGE here.

    Modern games are watered down instant gratification machines that excel when the entry difficulty is easy enough that you get a silver trophy just for buying the damn thing. People don't want to get good. They want to just be good from the start without working for it. Wipeout has always had an extremely high entry skill level which is unattractive to the casual gamers that buy things like Mario Kart instead (no hate btw, I own it on the Wii, Wii U, and now the Switch). People like the fact that it takes very little skill to win. If you are no good at MK, just use the op super weapon only "awarded" to those in last place to jump ahead of your friend who has skillfully mastered each turn. Little to no skill is involved. Some of this is a generational thing. Plain and simple, we (as in the older pilots who played the original PS1 games when they first came out), didn't have all the bells and whistles and the game industry was still in infancy. We played what we had and there were fewer choices. You played a game because you liked it. There were no trophies. Games were just harder by comparison and partly because there was less motivating people to play games to completion without trophies to extend a game beyond the normal story. I almost hate to play in a US lobby because I'm afraid people will rage quit on me, or drop out of a lobby. There are very few elite pilots in the US compared to Europe, so being massacred on your first race is enough for a lot of more casual pilots in the US to just give up without ever giving it a chance. They have no motive to actually get good enough to compete. So they go back to their COD's or Battlefields and camp in sniper spots (no offense to you fans out there of either of those games, you aren't who I'm talking about otherwise you wouldn't be reading this post or thread).

    The FPS games have absolutely dominated the market on a global scale. This automatically places a title like Wipeout in the niche category and it receives little to no hype at all which drives games (with out hype no one would have bought No Man's Sky here, a game that I love and knew well enough beforehand what I was getting). The major retail stores here don't even stock it. I preordered mine from Gamestop. There were only 3 preorders for the highest volume store in a wealthy area, and one of those was my sister "mannemily". Target doesn't carry it. Walmart doesn't either. Bestbuy doesn't too. And when I went back to Gamestop to preorder the FFXII remaster the next day, my heart sank when I saw a used copy on the wall after just 1 day post-release. They should make a Gold trophy called "Racing With Unicorns" where it pops when you get beat by someone playing in a US region. They should also have a bronze one called "This is Likely The Only Trophy You'll Get" that pops when someone playing in an US region installs it to their PS4. I hate to say it, we suck at AG racing here (I don't and the other few that bought it here don't of course), but there is no hype at all. I suspect that a lot of the US players for HD/Fury only got it after the price drop (once again, no offense to the other pilots this does not apply to). I'm trying to give a general overview of how people perceive it in my area. It might be different in other places in the US. I saw no marketing, no commercials, no hype, and the only preorder bonus we got here was the Van Uber. Please someone send me a steel book, because they don't exist on this continent.
    CORRECTION: Best Buy is now carrying it in my area, there were no preorders apparently, and their shipment was delayed (according to a friend that saw it and told me about this), but at least it is getting some coverage now from a Big Box Retailer.

    I've spoke with a lot of people my age and they all seem to remember playing Wipeout back in the old days and probably didn't even know it exists still. It is almost like Sony US has a personal vendetta against it, and it received no marketing coverage at all. I work for the government here as a contractor for UAV training programs. If that doesn't fit the bill for target demographic for a game like this, I don't know what does. But all my peers, and literally ALL of them in a large room chocked full of ace developers that write training software for unmanned aircraft with weapons (sound familiar???) obsess about Overwatch's new DLC. They don't care about Wipeout, and despite many of them looking to get that 0.1% new trophy for Overwatch simply because it is a "badge of skill", when asked why they didn't have interest in Wipeout conceded that they "didn't have time for it." Yet I see all of them online playing Overwatch until late at night. I would give anything for just 1 person out of a building of 1,000s of people to say to me "Oh Wipeout Omega? Hell ya! What is your screen name? Have you finished the campaign yet?" That will never happen here. I spread the word when I can. But going up against mannjon for a first race will not be conducive to a good online experience for beginners. I'm not going to sellout by acting like I can't race just for the purpose of trying to get someone interested. That isn't the spirit of Wipeout gameplay, and it never has been.

    And... let's be honest. Would you want a watered down new pilot friendly Wipeout game anyway? Based on all the "how do I get to rank 50" posts, it would seem like Wipeout fans don't like grinding for trophies. I sure as Hell don't. For Wipeout to be mainstream here, it would need to be easier. It would need to be easier to the point that us experienced pilots (or new committed pilots) wouldn't even recognize it anymore. The only way this could theoretically work is by having a matchmaking system. But anyone who was playing HD on the PS3 up until launch of Omega knows that just finding an online lobby at all was challenging enough (of course HD is a 9 year old game now).

    What we really need here is a competitive scene that puts pro's together at some play-off for money (like they do for Tekken and Street Fighter) or exposure. That would significantly raise people's awareness. Nothing wrong with streaming, but to generate any hype here, some US pilot needs to go become the poster boy (or girl) expert and compete in a massive tournament somewhere, and make it look good too. It really has to be that grandiose, or no one will pay attention. The same people I work with (who are all super amazing people by the way) watch Overwatch matches at work on their second monitor in the background. There is a market for it that just doesn't exist with streaming. I watched all of the Equilibrium Tournament footage a few years ago myself. That wasn't exactly a Youtube sensation.

    I just worry that they will make a totally new Wipeout game that never makes it here. That might be the only way to actually move forward to a new game. That same logic applied to the release of Xenoblade, which actually was eventually brought here by enough fans making their voices heard, and we got a Spiritual successor and now a direct sequel, so there is a small ray of hope. It is a sad thing for me to consider but I feel as though I'm in the vast minority here, and to have any hope of a new game, we would need to have that type of support before it ever happens.
    Last edited by mannjon; 14th June 2017 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Update

  3. #33
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    Mannjon, a very well considered post IMHO.

    The only difference I have with your post is when you said Quote: The FPS games have absolutely dominated the market on a global scale

    I disagree with that.
    I think it should read, FPS are hugely popular where people have easy access to gun ownership and can fire them off regularly....being the USA.

    The only thing one can gather from your post, and many similar to it at various forums is, people in the USA like to shoot things more than anything else, even virtually.....Ummm, sort of glad I live in AUS where we have Gun control.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at you, just the situation you find yourself living in.....personally, I would feel uncomfortable with the fact that pretty much any of my neighbors would own guns, but that's because where I live we don't allow it.

    In your society it a accepted fact, and hence would be in the back of everybody's minds....so, logically, if one was to live is a society that felt like this, being able to handle a weapon well, even virtually, would be considered a welcome talent....hence the propensity for the sales of FPS in the USA over everything else.

    I don't know if that is considered 'living in fear'...maybe for those new to the USA that aren't used to living with it.....sorry, this is getting into realms I didn't intend it to.

  4. #34
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    This is a little off topic but you know what is odd about it? It isn't even the legit gun owners that are the problem. I know these people well because I've been a freelance creative director and graphics designer for a target company. I meet a lot of hunters and range owners as part of the work. What you say is correct. I would agree that access to guns is probably bending the culture towards more of a gun loving society and thus pushing fps games.

    These same types though the vast majority don't own guns, know hown to safely handle them, or have never even held a gun in real life. I've been around it since I was young and I know how to safely handle store and secure them (I'm also an ace shot, but that is far off topic). I bring this up because while I'm a good shot in real life, I'm terrible at fps games. There is no correlation between actual gun owners and fps players and I think that might be because people that have never shot before really want to and they obsess over it and play fps games. They have no idea how to be safe and mature about them in the real world and do incredibly stupid things. Just because ownership is legal does not necessarily mean guns are accessible and they aren't more often than not. But the socially accepted undertone of being a gun owner society leads to people play fps games probably more often than they go out to a range for example. I will point out that being a legal gun owner that does not hunt that designs targets (I mainly have a pistol to test these targets and I get paid to do it, and ironically the range owner closest is an ex Londoner Brit!) that doesn't play fps games puts me in the extreme minority. People act like I'm weird because I don't play Call of Duty. I get odd stares when I try to explain what Wipeout is. Given I live in Alabama, where things are slower paced for everyone that doesn't work for the military. Quite honestly there are a lot of people that may just not know about it because this is a gigantic military town. It is just so ironic that I literally live in the UAV capitol of the world and I seem to be the only Wipeout owner here. So I evangelize when I can but the military families that live here in the garrisons all play military themed fps games. Ironically many pilot UAVs in their daily job, so they play military games to get away from piloting. But this town is far from the norm, and this is one of the wealthiest places in the US.

    I will say this though. Guns get more hype here than anywhere else in the world. There are commercials for gun shows and sales all the time. You get used to it and don't even really think about it. In fact I wasn't aware of how much marketing they get until you said something blackwiggle.

    It is sad that so many people play fps games here. It really is. They don't even want new ones either. They will play the same cod in a different package every year Activision makes one.

    You do get used to it though if you live around it much. There is a city in Texas for example where gun ownership is mandatory (or at least you have to pass a certification, the owning part is not actually mandated, but due to the mandatory training an overwhelming amount of people do). So an estimated 88% of that town owns guns. They have the lowest crime rate in the United States and have not had a firearm related crime in years. Presumably because crooks know better than to take granny's purse knowing she could be packing heat.

    So I think it is more of the cultural acceptance that might be the real culprit for the increasingly popular fps genre.

    Also the xboxone is here, and all their flagship titles are fps games. I'm a playstation and nintendo guy, and that is not normal. Nearly all of my gamer friends have an xbox and a pc. I think wipeout would have success on the PC, but I don't Sony will ever allow that and a lot of the market share her is xbox. So what can ya do?
    Last edited by mannjon; 14th June 2017 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    It is sad that so many people play fps games here. It really is. They don't even want new ones either. They will play the same cod in a different package every year Activision makes one.
    People will buy what they know, regardless of it's quality, because they think it's a safe bet. Cars, food, games, it's all the same.

    The CEO of EA has openly admitted that they could release a FIFA game with no changes whatsoever from their previous one, except the year in it's title (and they pretty much have!) and it'll still be their highest selling game of the year. It was the highest selling game in the world last year at over £536,000,000 despite being absolutely dreadful. While PES 2017, despite world wide acclaim that it was not only the best football game of the year, but arguable the best one ever and it still sold over 40x less.

    Every review of Omega says something along the lines of "Wipeout has always been the title to show off Sony's new hardware, and it's great to see it again with HDR/4K and the PS4 Pro" so it's not like it's disappeared from consumers memory. Just needs a new game to get the same amount of AAA hype other games get and away you go.

  6. #36
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    mannjonís idea of a competitive scene makes absolute sense, and one can only dream.

    So, how do you go about creating competitions/leagues that get wildly publicised? Which high ranked executives do we need to ring to make it happen? Or is this a community thing that needs to grow bigger with time?

    As for the US, Iíd like to think WipEout doesnít need them to survive, but it would also hugely help the series if it were popular there.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdHoc View Post
    As for the US, Iíd like to think WipEout doesnít need them to survive, but it would also hugely help the series if it were popular there.
    I take it you are not a fan of Auricom, lol. Auricom and Feisar are the only two teams that have made an appearance in every title. I find it a little ironic how we (the US) just don't show up to actually race with it. But jokes aside, as far as sales figures go, I guess technically this is true. It is a huge shame it isn't more popular here. I think a lot of it is just due to lack of awareness, because a lot of die hard fans have been around since the beginning, and a lot of them have since moved on after XL and don't even know it is out there. We don't benefit from any hype here at all. There was no mention of it and no advertising in games stores.

    I'm still here though, and would surely miss it. I personally feel that if the US were cut out, eventually the rest of you guys and gals would miss us.

    I think that gaming as a whole is not as driven by execs anymore as far as competitive tournaments are concerned. This would have to be a grass roots thing. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of taking a train to Germany, or France, or the UK as a lot of you guys do (Australia also certainly does not benefit from this luxury, and won't until they build a Sol 2 like bridge connecting them to the mainland). But that's just the thing though. There is a more natural competitive state for neighboring countries it would seem. Having access to friends in neighboring countries you can visit almost seems like a necessity for something like this to work.

    I have only raced one pilot from Mexico ever. Canadian pilots are starting to show up, but I'd have to take a plane to hang out there. Geographically speaking, this is a problem for North America in general, as I would have to take a plane to race with anyone in the US, and the closest large metro hub is a good 2 hour drive from here. With live streaming I think there is hope something like this could be accomplished, but we would need larger support for it from execs too, because I don't think our US rep here would be cool with an officially sponsored event even if they didn't have to pay for it, and even if they could get cost-free revenue from it.

  8. #38
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    I live in Hobart, Tasmania at the moment. I expected to be one of the only pilots down here. Turns out WOOC was sold out in two stores I visited before finally finding it!

    Thereís so many people playing the game (probaly casually, but not necessarily) that donít even know thereís a cult following and active community around the game.

    Itís sad that it all boils down to publicity...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdHoc View Post
    So, how do you go about creating competitions/leagues that get wildly publicised? Which high ranked executives do we need to ring to make it happen? Or is this a community thing that needs to grow bigger with time?
    A bigger problem than advertising a competition; Wipeout has no simple means of spectators being able to view it.

    A lot of eSports games have a spectator mode, or they're a sports game where by it's very nature you're viewing all the action at the same time. WO doesn't have this. The only way to view a race as it happens is via a specific players Twitch / YouTube stream.

  10. #40
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    Yeah... nothing a patch couldnít solve though, am I right Clever Beans? *wink wink*

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