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Thread: Guys, get your hopes up, Nick Burcombe talks about crowdfunding interest for a new WipEout game!

  1. #21
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    Hello all! I didn't mean to spark a PC Master Race debate. That was not my intent. I in fact, would do way more Steam gaming if I didn't have a crappy laptop.

    My point was similar to what Blackwiggle just stated. Consoles standardize things. They are far from a dying breed because while certain games may be optimized for keyboard play (such as RTS games) others are not. While you can always attach a controller to a PC, you can't really attach a keyboard and mouse to a console. The thing about consoles, is that even though the Xbone and PS4 networks are exclusive, they really help to organize online play as well.

    I do take some offense to the idea to have the 4.5. I just bought a new system. Why should I pay even more money to get a newer system for only slightly better gameplay and features? The Vita and the PS TV flopped for similar reasons. Consoles are expensive. I bought a next gen as an investment. I'm kind of pissed that the new paradigm seems to mimic the PC problem of having a new rig outdated shortly after release. Take Wii U for example, they have all but abandoned the console. I love my Wii U, am I'm upset that they are essentially phasing it out for new tech. I jumped on the PS3 bandwagon late, but there were still good games being released. I got a PS4 just after the initial release, and now it would seem like the is to already start phasing it out.

    What we really need is a Gaming Master Race.

  2. #22
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    For the very reason you stated, is why I think having certain Xbone/ PS4/PC games that allowed all to being able to share a online experience via crossplay at the same time is a bad thing, nothing is standardized, so the biggest baddest rig [A PC probably] will 'Likely' win every time, which defeats the whole purpose, and why I think even if a few games would allow this, it would soon die a sad death, that's if it ever eventuated in the first place, which I doubt it will.

    You just have to see just how many PS4 games that allow friends to take over playing for you if you are stuck at a certain point?
    I can't think of one, can anybody?
    It was advertised as a great feature at PS4's launch, and that's using the one system......it makes crossplay across gaming platforms highly unlikely to happen as the game makers would need to support it, and I honestly can't see any reason why they would bother, as they haven't even bothered fully supporting the PS4's online features.

    I don't take offense at Sony making another huge blunder, I'm used to it now.
    If I were a share holder, well then I would be very worried at the adverse press this whole PS4.5 is going to generate...... I suspect it will end up being as useful as the expansion pack on a Nintendo 64 game....hardly noticeable, as most gaming houses will be building games for the original spec'd console.

    Why would they build a game that won't run on the highest selling current Gen console, the current PS4? It would just piss people off...they won't, so it's pointless buying a PS 4.5.

    4k gaming.... I can't see it happening any time soon unless the games are relatively small, like Superstardust [which is having a VR release ] ..it's confusing enough playing in 3D, as in what depth level enemies are at, and somewhat nauseating to play..... 1 or 2, 4K games would fill your 1TB hard drive unless some new data compression method is found, who's going to buy into that?...not me.

    They have taken a different approach with the VR version.... you are more like sitting in a gunners seat of the Millennium Falcon with Superstardust VR..... your neck will never be the same with all the twisting about you end up doing.

    As for 4k generally....well being a bit of a tech head regarding audio/visual I've looked into it, thought about it, and decided NOW is not the time to buy into it.
    The graph below shows screen size V's seating distance on being able to perceive a 4K image over a 1080p one.
    Attachment 10300

    The biggest problem with 4K, also with 1080p, is smooth motion across screen.....even the best Sony Motionflow algorithms leave a LOT to be desired picture quality wise against the old CRT TV's , that refreshed the picture top to bottom, rather than LCD/LED/Plasma TV's, Right to Left .
    Ghosting and light trails are very obvious on 4K TV's, 3D on 4K TV's is horrible, even at 1080p.....that's why you NEVER see any fast moving action on 4K or VR demoed...it fails miserably

    It's a major failing of the technology, and the higher the resolution you make it [4k] and the faster you need it to respond [as in the VR headset screen's, especially when moving your head rapidly] the worse this tech failure appears..... it's all a bit of a blurr.
    Which is totally the opposite of what it was supposed to be.
    Last edited by blackwiggle; 20th June 2016 at 06:28 AM.

  3. #23
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    All good points Wiggle. I think with the right game and with the right community ( <3 u guys! ) IT could work. But that brings up a new set of problems. For instance, what happens if the right game is produced, the community is in support, and we get another 2048. Don't get me wrong, I loved that game! I keep my Vita around for that and streaming PS4 games to it. But at the same time, it just didn't have the wow factor HD had. A game that truly sought to bridge console gaps would have to not only excel in an online experience, but it would have to be a stellar game too. Also consider the type of fanbase out there:

    > I BOUGHT a PS3 JUST for WOHD. That was my reason, and my only reason at the time. I BOUGHT my PS4 however due to FO4. So while it would make a huge impact on console driven sales for PS4, it wouldn't at all for Xbones or even Wii U/NX (most die hard Nintendo fans likely would boycott it because it wasn't a next gen F-Zero, and a lot of Xbone/Microsoft fans wouldn't even know what it was). To its credit, PC owners would probably bite because it could be a steam release, same would go for the people that actually bought a Steam Console, though they probably don't have any money left cuz those are expensive.

    > So to attract people to a game like that, it would have to generate appeal to people strongly Nintendorized, or people that have never had the experience. Honestly, I have always thought of WO to be a niche game, and that isn't what developers want to use as a flagship multi-platform release.

    > To take it one step further, it would be nice to see it in VR. At the same time, no one is going to spend all that money for a niche game.

    Ok, moving forward though, there may be a silver lining. Doom. A little known fact about Microsoft is that Gates tried numerous times to buy id software. Why? Because he realized that the future of PC gaming was going the way that Doom had opened up the market. When id turned him down, he agreed to work with id software to make a port for Windows that didn't require going through a dos command prompt. However it was largely due to the fact that at the time, Doom was OUTSELLING his operating system. Despite decent sales, I doubt Gates would see the same opportunity for a WO release.

    Even if you could get the console companies onboard, as blackwiggle has already pointed out, there would have to be some type of standardization. As a PC Gamer myself, I would want to run the game to its max potential, and with a good enough build, I do think that a PC would have a decisive advantage especially with all the nuance differences in the way games connect to various online servers. It could be done, but it would be hard to standardize without massive amounts of resources spent on a 3rd Party server. Think about it, would people want to play an Xbone game online if it came from a Sony server? How would one even (and this is a Cipher question really) go about doing something like that to ensure an equal and balanced online experience?

    I'm all for the idea of modernizing online play. I really am. I would like to see PC exclusives (like Starcraft) even make it to a Console despite the difficulty that would come along with an inferior UX on the console due to having to use a PS4 controller (and yes I realize that you can always use a mouse and keyboard, but who would pay additional money to play just one game?) On that note, maybe one solution is to use a server similar to Battlenet (which I hate) for games meant to be played cross-console. It might at least be a start in ensuring the same experience across the board.

    [Edit] I just remember that N64 DID have a crappy version of WO. I think at that point Pygnosis owned the rights? I can't remember how that was actually licensed.

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    Wo64 played just like 2097/XL. Not crappy

    Regarding keyboards: they easily can give keyboard/mouse support to consoles. They have in the past, and are just too lazy now to add that support. A keyboard/mouse can be used for many games. I hate having to play a FPS with a controller, it's always dumbed down( auto aim, lenient aiming hits) compared to games like quake 3 or unreal tournament.

    Vita failed because they limited everything it could do compared to the psp ( 80 + million units sold). No TV support, limiting a memory card to a specific system, both terrible ideas. It was a great system, but because they wanted to stop piracy or game sharing, it resulted in a failed system. Even when they saw this happening ( no sales) they doubled down on these ideas. They released the vita tv, with no support for all the games. Ridiculous.

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    WO64 played using the thumbstick on an N64 controller. Compared to a Dual Shock PS1 at the time, it was no comparison. It also stuttered sometimes and I bet the framerate was off too. At least for me, I felt WO64 was more of a cheap port than a 2097 N64 edition. I still have both old consoles, and I did a comparison. N64's controller is not optimized for WO. PS1's controller felt 2nd nature to me.

    To keep things fair, I then played the N64 version, PS1 version AND my old PC copy using a keyboard and mouse setup and emulators. Keeping in mind that not all emulators are built equal, I did what I could to manipulate framerates to be relatively the same. Sure enough, the N64 version stuttered even with an average of around 54 FPS. I don't know if it is much of a comparison, but it does lead me to believe that certain ports would in fact give players advantages based on the console used.

    Totally agree with the Vita/TV though. That was a missed opportunity for Sony. I certainly hope they learn from their mistake. I doubt either will get any future updates, and the two systems are all but elite except for Indie games, which I hate.

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    Call me old fashioned but wipEout was always a Playstation game and should remain so.

    Also, gaming PC's can be quite expensive, when compared to getting a console which is simply, plug n play. I have a very powerful PC but I won't game on it simply because having steam and all the other stuff is just too complicated for someone like me who just wants to power on the system, and scroll to wipEout without any additional fuss.

    That's all really... wait, wipEout PS4, come on SONY - this is just like - wtf are you doing? The FUTURE is NOW.

  7. #27
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    My main concern is that if something were ever a true cross port venture that it would be fair and equal to all consoles, PC included.

    I can name an example where this is relevant. Let's use Overwatch as an example. I heard a guy talking about this the other day concerning the online play: "I won't ever play it on console because the controller just isn't precise enough."

    Now for a FPS, this makes sense. If you had PC players up against consoles, the fluidity of the mouse would be a huge advantage. It doesn't translate over to racing as a genre because I would argue that racing games would in fact be more difficult using a mouse and keyboard. But the point is that there are huge inherent differences in control schemes at the very least.

    You can always add a controller to a PC (especially XBone controllers since they are microsoft). You can also add a mouse and keyboard to consoles, but then lag becomes an issue. There isn't a good solution to standardize things. How would you go about ensuring equality?

    Hey hey Terra, long time no race! I should probably get on PS3 sometime soon. Unfortunately for us, the next generation of gamers seems to have taken a foothold on future releases. I fear we won't see a WO game that we would recognize. They tried to appeal to new gamers with 2048, and it didn't do so well. Their attempts to modernize it may have been the final nail in the coffin. Another one of my favorites series has gone down the path of no return: Final Fantasy. I grew up on turn based combat, and I now realize that due to young'uns out there that weren't around when that kind of gameplay was popular, are now determining how the market diverges. Case in point, they made FFVX a realtime action RPG despite the dismal failures that FFXIII were to the community. They did add in a "wait" mode feature to appeal to the turn based crowd, but it is far from innovation. I doubt we will ever see another true turn based FF game.

    If they did make a PS4 iteration, Sony would probably only approve the design if it had things that would attract new people to the series. Unfortunately the biggest complaint non WO vets had about the game was that it was too hard. Modern gamers don't like hard games. They like easy trophies. You can't have a game that includes both, and the money is in the newer market. It would be hard to have a WO that was both friendly to new players as well as competitive for us veterans. Skill matching might help, but it think it takes away a lot of the challenge. I want to race against the best. It was what gave WO nearly inexhaustible replay value. They'd also likely dumb down controls and have 2 hours of pop up type guided tutorials. I like a game that just tosses you into the action and assumes you are smart enough to figure it out.

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    It's quite simple what's needed.
    Great tracks, Racebox timing, online record tables, several race speed teams.......that's what got everybody hooked back in 1990's

    That's it...instant success . .well maybe not, but it's the best bet.
    Last edited by blackwiggle; 5th July 2016 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mannjon View Post
    Unfortunately for us, the next generation of gamers seems to have taken a foothold on future releases. I fear we won't see a WO game that we would recognize. They tried to appeal to new gamers with 2048, and it didn't do so well. Their attempts to modernize it may have been the final nail in the coffin. Another one of my favorites series has gone down the path of no return: Final Fantasy. I grew up on turn based combat, and I now realize that due to young'uns out there that weren't around when that kind of gameplay was popular, are now determining how the market diverges. Case in point, they made FFVX a realtime action RPG despite the dismal failures that FFXIII were to the community. They did add in a "wait" mode feature to appeal to the turn based crowd, but it is far from innovation. I doubt we will ever see another true turn based FF game.

    If they did make a PS4 iteration, Sony would probably only approve the design if it had things that would attract new people to the series. Unfortunately the biggest complaint non WO vets had about the game was that it was too hard. Modern gamers don't like hard games. They like easy trophies. You can't have a game that includes both, and the money is in the newer market. It would be hard to have a WO that was both friendly to new players as well as competitive for us veterans.
    I'd like to know how 2048 was trying to appeal to modern gamers.

    On the other hand, the way WipEout FuturE could appeal to both veterans AND new players is through track difficulty. For example, in 2097, or XL if you played the NTSC version, you had the very easy Talon's Reach (if you could fly/pilot/drive the Qirex), but the difficulty suddenly ramps up in Gare D'Europa. Even better, there could be a Classic League, with tracks from the first 3 games, which would be arranged in ascending difficulty, as well. And no, not in the absolutely disgraceful way that Pure did, by simplifying graphics and shortening the tracks (like how the drop in Pure's Altima VII was just a downward-sloping section and not a vertical drop, like in the original circuit and W3SE's rendition). I mean that what the devs/Mr Burcombe could do is to basically give the chosen tracks an HD remaster. However, not with slight modifications. For example, HD's Chenghou Project's outwards banked corner sends your ship into the air. I mean faithful reconstructions, with the details spot-on, or as close as possible.

    I know it seems forceful, but what can I do? I'm just a fan.

    whispers Also, photo mode would be nice. I honestly have 709 screenshots from 2048. And that's without counting my HD/Fure DLC screenshots. That'll bump the count to 918 photos. Somebody help me.

  10. #30
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    WipEout 2048 tried to appeal to modern gamers by showcasing all the "wizz-bang" features of the Vita.

    Motion controls, touchscreen controls, etc.

    That's my take, anyway.

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    ^ This. I don't know anyone that has the same feelings about 2048 that they did compared to WOHD/Fury. Elimination mode was dumbed down to the point where whoever got the most quakes often won. WOHD had tremendous depth in Elimination mode, and I'm not even a huge fan yet found Elimination mode more engaging. They also had a lot more city type tracks. Though a nice change, it almost felt like they were trying to attract fans of other racing titles to a fault. I get that it served as a precursor canon wise and those tracks would have been more realistic for the AG racing's initial feel.

    I think had SL had more time to go back and fix things it would have been a much better title. To be honest, for me personally it almost felt like a Beta. The multiplayer was one prime example of trying to innovate that failed miserably. But alas, we I apologize for steering off topic.

    I'm just worried that if there was a next gen true WO game, they wouldn't keep true to fans like they should. The perfect storm is brewing for a release, and the fact that Sony hasn't surrendered the rights might be an indication they are planning to develop something as a VR early launch title. Just think about it a minute... PS4 will be able to offer VR without having to upgrade your current system. All you need is the VR headset, and the camera. It would be a great opportunity for Sony to include a new wipeout offering to help sell VR units.

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    I absolutely love 2048's overall style and design, but the gameplay was horrid. Only Speed class ships were necessary to finish the game if you're used to WOHD, AI and physics were worse than before, and the like the posts above me, Elimination was like a slot machine. I almost going to ask my parents to buy me a VITA solely for 2048, but boy I'm glad and dissapointed that I didn't.

    My favorite in style will always be 2048, it fuses old present-day buildings and tech alongside futuristic ones, it felt ridiculously realistic. It tried its best to give a good nod to the original '95 WO and it's good enough, an also, city tracks! I absolutely love the atmosphere it gives out, just a pity it doesn't play well. 😿

    @manjon
    I don't really like the idea of a VR Wipeout. Can you play WOHD in cockpit view well?
    Sony kept on pushing high-tech fancy gimmicks that don't help making a game more fun, this is part of the reason SL might've made 2048 a limp cookie because they spent time developing weird wacky controls on the VITA that no one would ever use.

    It's more important for a game to be fun than innovative. Just look at DOOM '16.
    Last edited by TheXTR09; 15th July 2016 at 05:27 PM.

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    I don't know just how relevant VR would be for a racing game to be honest, as the vast majority of the time you would be wanting to be looking straight ahead, especially at the speed Wipeout craft get to.
    Playing HD in 3D is fun, but you take a serious performance hit doing so, to such an extent it would be highly unlikely that you would ever win a online race if playing in 3D, I don't think I ever have managed it.

    VR seems to me best suited to RPG / Action games, but in saying that, it would depend on how it is implemented.
    If say Uncharted 4 had a VR version, I imagine you would tire of it pretty quickly what with all the climbing in that game.

    Gamers are pretty much coach potatoes, physical exertion over a long period is not something that will go down well with them, and having tried briefly the Sony VR when it had a short demo here, and plenty of hours trying the Steam VR which is on permanent demonstration at the Microsoft store across the road from my work place, I can see the novelty of VR soon wearing off.

    Imagine if you lost the remote to your TV and had to get up and walk over to the TV to change the channel or adjust volume each time, pretty annoying don't you think, well VR can easily slip into a very similar sort of thing, where you think, stuff it, I'd rather just play the game in 2D with a controller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackwiggle View Post
    I don't know just how relevant VR would be for a racing game to be honest, as the vast majority of the time you would be wanting to be looking straight ahead, especially at the speed Wipeout craft get to.
    Have you ever played a racing game in VR? I think you wouldn't be saying that if you had. I recently played several racing games with oculus rift, including Assetto Corsa (a realistic race simulator), and I can tell you, VR absolutely changes the way a racing game feels, and also the way you play it. Being in VR gives you a feel for the scale of everything, the distances to corners, the width of the track - it all just feels natural and makes you a far more precise pilot. Also, if you watch people playing racing games in VR, you will notice that they hardly ever look straight ahead. Most of the time you look diagonally into corners to judge the apex and your speed (like you subconciously do in real life, btw). So yes, I absolutely think wipEout in VR would be freaking amazing and elevate the sense of high speed and floaty AG craft to a whole new level. I would love to play wo3 in VR cockpit mode as a high res emulation on 120Hz!

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    That's racing games with a cockpit view. VR is meaningless in external views, except for a slight advantage in judging distances, but the vehicle itself already provides a scale in normal gameplay. Wipeout with VR would be cool, but it's not the omg-must-have-feature that happens with racing simulators.

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    No I haven't played a racing game on VR as yet, closest thing to that was a Sony demo when I was in a car and other cars were coming from behind, then in front with somebody shooting at me, and me having to shoot back, it almost felt like a VR version of Time Crisis on wheels, but you needed to look behind you both to your right & left.

    One of the Steam VR demos available here ATM is a space shooter, sort of like flying a X-Wing fighter and shooting at Imperial craft, a lot of turning around 360 degrees, and looking up & down to survive.

    As I said, I suppose it all depends on how the VR is implemented for any particular game, and type of game, and also the controller type that will work with them.

    I'll have to try and get a play of Assetto Corsa VR when somebody I know gets a rift, but for the price they are asking for it in Aus [approx Aus $1200 ] they are going to be few and far between, the HTC Vive is even more, and works out about Aus$1400, and both of those prices are without any controllers.

    The Sony VR works out about Aus $600, but I have my doubts about how well it will work out if the field, rather than in controlled Demos, especially now Sony are bringing out a up rated spec'd PS4, and if that console is what is really going to be needed to get the VR working well, rather than passable.

    Every time Sony brings out something new it tends to not work as well as the hype, or has some 'feature' that is never implemented by the game makers, like the PS4's Share Play.

    See what happens, nothing is hitting the market here officially till Oct.

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    Cockpit view and VR are to be taken in different lights, but I see your point. Most racing games do have very clunky cockpit views. The precision involved would have to be near perfect. No one has said anything about input lag on VR because we haven't really seen VR yet.

    Still, it could be done. For a VR Wipeout, you would need to have wider tracks for starters. It would need to be a new experience, which I think the series could use to appeal to new would be racers. Most launch titles aren't really full games as they are tech demos that show what VR can do, and a VR racing experience could be an easy yet early adaptation. I think a VR racing game would need to have the option to use a standard controller or the dual motion sensor controls. One thing that would help to offset the difficulty of cockpit view would be to have your peripherals in wider view. The problem I have with cockpit view is that the peripheral side views don't really help much. In a car, you can look outside either side. I think with a fully 3D VR experience, if you look to the side, your view should change. That might help with some of the cockpit view problems. But the first thing to do is widen the tracks.

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    I can only go by playing WOHD in 3D online, and as I mentioned above, you take a serious performance hit when doing so.
    The lag just playing solo offline is pretty severe, but it is very immersive if playing in cockpit view like I always have, I do it occasionally just for a laugh, but doing the same online, well you don't stand a chance of winning a race unless playing a in a room of complete noobs.

    Mind you, the 3D became a update on HD, so it was a early attempt, on a previous generation console.
    Looking at the PC spec's needed for a rift to work, it will be interesting to see just what a upgrade the newer spec'd PS4 ends up being, I saw a video interview with one of the heads of Sony saying that they intend to change to the roll out model of it's consoles, with gradual updates on the same platform over years, rather than bringing out a PS5.
    Unless they make the PS4, or some future variant of it modular, that can have parts easily upgraded, like a PC, I think it will cause too many incompatibility problems along the way, which is why people have chosen consoles over PC gaming in the first place, as until now, everybody has been on the same page,gaming machine power wise.
    Last edited by blackwiggle; 19th July 2016 at 05:12 AM.

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    What I think needs to be done is a WipEout that's continually updated with new content (optional download). It would be like Pure, but better managed. And if you enter an online game or receive a challenge that uses content you haven't downloaded yet, then it will automatically do a temporary download and ask if you wish to install it permanently.

    Combine that with PWYW marketing, optional ad revenue (users may opt out), an in-game diagnostic/feedback system, a system for user-content generation and/or partially open-source code (though you wouldn't be able to use online features or extra content without an official build)... It would take a lot of stress off the developers, both in terms of time pressure for new content and bug fixes, and budget for the same stuff. Oh, and a replay/theater mode.

    - - - - -

    Unrelated: an open-world Anti-Gravity racing game would also be good... Because exploration and whatnot. Like those old racing games for MS-DOS. And then there is the idea of side games, like a story-driven spin-off in the WipEout universe.
    Last edited by Amaroq Dricaldari; 5th December 2016 at 01:54 AM.

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    What did actually happen with the "dramatically different" PS4-wipEout which was said to be "already far in development" and got cancelled when SL was closed? Isn't there a possibility to rekindle that spark? I don't think Sony just went and said "alright Studio Liverpool, we also need the hard disk space, please just delete everything". If there's a chance for a new and official wipEout, this could be a possibility, I guess. Also, I am super curious about that 'dramatically different' statement. It just sounds so intriguing! (Does anyone know anything about that?)

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