Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 78

Thread: WXX-Rebirth : a modern engine for Wipeout 3 Special Edition !

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    France, Paris
    Timezone
    GMT + 1
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback

    Definitely public one day and open source, but it won't be on Steam obviously for copyright stuff and co.

    When I am done with the base of the game definitely I will look for multiplayer mode.

    Virtually it could run anywhere since it is Unity and I didn't rely on any particular library, the thing is such project will never end on any store so beside PC it would mean a high jacked hardware... Actually I did start with the first two episodes but the rewrote the code for episode 3 but it also handles the former ones so this also a thing I'd like, to have WO and WOXL.

    Now for the rest, I have a much better hovering than what you've seen, looking for roll and pitch and airbrakes. Will be analog by default but will also support digital. For the sound obviously I'll make it happen but the videos too and this was a rather tough thing as I had to write a library for extracting STR streams from XA CDs ...

    I deciphered pretty much everything except animations and some mysterious things, for the rest that won't happen probably, what you should know is that it is a really optimized game on the PSX therefore the code is too, i.e. I won't get much more than that as I'm not an ASM guru on the PSX. I did manage to get these missing polygons on track borders as they were deeply buried somewhere else through a 30+ hours debugging session so for the visuals and sounds e have all we need, there is too little info for the animations, i know where these are but I can't get anything out of them, maybe some quaternion but since it's mostly zeros I'm screwed ... But these are simple and I'll do them by hand.

    So you have some EXE that has surely been optimized out using a piece of software because it really made no sense for it to be done this way by humans: there's practically no chance i figure much more than what I've already did.

    You were saying that control is important but let me tell you that camera is, too. I'm trying to get a similar camera but it's not easy ... The next version will open new settings and maybe people will figure out better settings than I thought of.

    Thing is as I keep refining, things are progressing more slowly, but surely ! We're not there yet but will one day, and I'll ask bigsnake and Xpand from BnG to see what can be improved.

    I'll try to wrap up a demo of the latest soon within a few days ��

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Looking forward for the next Beta And yes, Camera is also a very important factor
    I like the idea of streaming the music tracks and all sound effects from the CD itself.
    It will make for a more genuine experience overall, as close to the real thing as possible.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    France, Paris
    Timezone
    GMT + 1
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Of course, Wipeout wouldn't be Wipeout without the music

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Yeah, I know WO games always shined at this chapter. I'll give 2097/XL the 1st place for music tracks It was also the game that introduced me to the series.
    Man, do I remember the thrill hovering at insane speeds listening to Prodigy back in th 90's... Then came WO3 with it's clean look and that overall polished feel...

    Anyways, is there any kind of "roadmap" that we could track for this project ? Or any plans to set one up if there isn't one yet... ?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    France, Paris
    Timezone
    GMT + 1
    Posts
    310

    Default

    I started playing with WO shortly after it's been in stores I guess around Sept. '95, then WOXL followed and is too my favorite esp. the music ! The Prodigy music was simply insane, it never gets old

    For WO3 actually I haven't played until it around 2006 IIRC when I bought a new PSX and I was simply amazed by its look. However now I can hardly cope with Rapier class, let alone Phantom class ... it's just too fast

    Not sure if you have access to this thread http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...mages-allowed) (I think one needs at least N posts or something), the whole history of the reverse engineering of WO3 I did is in there, and it started in April. I did start the previous project with WO/WOXL exactly a year before, so this one is about 3 months old.

    For a timeline I would love to say tomorrow but I really have no idea but ASAP !

    Here's a rough list of top-priority things:

    - hovering/jumps: mostly done except that tracks like SampaRun are problematic and this is likely to need a refined approach; it is really hard at the same time to try play WO3 properly and try understand the inner logic of it

    - finish track collisions -> shouldn't be very long

    - levels/scenery -> low-level stuff figured out, high-level stuff needs manual work (checkpoints, booster/pads: not found in game data and therefore I have to run through each track and write down section/face) -> not complex but very repetitive and long

    - animations -> shouldn't be very long as there is a dozen by track, instantiation by code has been figured out (in fact with Unity when you step out a bit from their intended path you are on your own, in my case 95% of stuff is done by code rather the mouse, a way (officially) not supported by Unity) of course I do profit of Unity facilities by it's not like when one imports models but OTOH there are advantages with code: my scene is not littered with a billion things placed manually

    Now when I have these things which I consider essential to qualify the project as a honest 'preview', the cake topping should be addressed:

    - audio/video : will be quick, all low level stuff is written: VAG, WAV, looping, extraction etc ... in fact it was not a matter of simply getting PCM or frames, Unity should be able to consume them, i.e. videos must be OGV and so on

    - the installer : mostly done, basically one will simply insert his WO3SE CD and it will take care of the rest, extracting videos manually is not the faint-hearted and I don't actually expect an end-user to do this.

    - AI/multi-player : will have to be done, no previous experience about it but there is significant info out there and I might even get help from BnG crew

    - interface/navigation : not particularly complex but there are a couple of things I need prepare before

    - shadow/lighting issues : in fact they have 'baked' them in the textures and therefore applying Unity standard shader simply looks worse, this is likely to happen when topping the topping ,i.e. when the game is done and could be modded or whatever (we're not there yet)


    To sum it up / TL;DR:


    Pretty much all the low-level stuff is done, high-level remains for the game internals but as a well as for the Unity side.

    Actually as time passes on, I spend a more and more significant time on the research part and not that much as one would think on coding, i.e. how can this be done efficiently, would it work and is this really what I need ? On the Internet 99% of stuff is crap when you do a search about game programming/Unity/books, beside people here that helped out for physics and stuff I rely on my own approach but this takes time (but in the end it is reliable).

    Another thing is testing, whenever I make changes I have to test and there are 22 tracks, I do not run through all but a few like Sampa Run and Prototype 3 as these have tight tunnels and unless I get an approximative WO experience I'm not happy.

    So progress in this project is like a roller-coaster !


    To make you salivate a bit

    2016-06-29 00_03_35-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_03_49-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_04_04-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_04_45-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_05_12-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_06_02-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_06_42-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_07_26-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    2016-06-29 00_08_25-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth - PC, Mac & Linux.png

    The red triangles you see are the missing ones I've told, was about to drop off completely if I couldn't get these but an intensive week with an hex editor and a calculator allowed me to figure it out entirely

    So many things are ready but I'm simply not pushing them because they need to be optimized, i.e. the scenery loading takes almost 10 seconds on its own because nothing is merged for debugging purposes, if I have say to run the project 100 times a day it equals to ~20 minutes lost in waiting. Add to this the Alt-Tab I have to do everytime I go back to Unity and wait for it to pick the changes (a few more seconds), you quickly end up in lots of time lost by waiting.

    But don't worry, I think I'll soon reach the summit of the coaster and gain a huge speed boost downhill (until next uphill )

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aybe View Post
    I started playing with WO shortly after it's been in stores I guess around Sept. '95, then WOXL followed and is too my favorite esp. the music ! The Prodigy music was simply insane, it never gets old

    For WO3 actually I haven't played until it around 2006 IIRC when I bought a new PSX and I was simply amazed by its look. However now I can hardly cope with Rapier class, let alone Phantom class ... it's just too fast
    I've never returned to WO XL/2097 after I've touched WO3. For some reason WO3 simply fit my bill... I liked the lighter look and the cleaner style and the sounds and all that... the funny billboards and everything make it look more idk... "happy" or something like that... less "rugged" and "brutal". Idk, it felt more like a "sport" than a crazy "futuristic AG fight"... And that's coming from a Survival Horror fan ) Same was with Gran Turismo. When GT2 came out it felt more "open" and "relaxed" although more complex overall... I didn't like GT2 very much at first, probably simply because of change... But man, did I loved it after I've got accustomed to it... still do. Last time I've finished GT2 was actually last year around Christmas. And if I'm still on the PSX chapter... I've also finished Parasite Eve 2 just about 2 or 3 months ago... something like that. Dang fine game!

    Not sure if you have access to this thread http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/sho...mages-allowed) (I think one needs at least N posts or something), the whole history of the reverse engineering of WO3 I did is in there, and it started in April. I did start the previous project with WO/WOXL exactly a year before, so this one is about 3 months old.
    Nope, got no access to that thread just yet Maybe later, Idk what's the post count requirement for that.

    For a timeline I would love to say tomorrow but I really have no idea but ASAP !
    The timeline doesn't matter. Only the end result Be it when it's done

    Here's a rough list of top-priority things:

    - hovering/jumps: mostly done except that tracks like SampaRun are problematic and this is likely to need a refined approach; it is really hard at the same time to try play WO3 properly and try understand the inner logic of it

    - finish track collisions -> shouldn't be very long

    - levels/scenery -> low-level stuff figured out, high-level stuff needs manual work (checkpoints, booster/pads: not found in game data and therefore I have to run through each track and write down section/face) -> not complex but very repetitive and long

    - animations -> shouldn't be very long as there is a dozen by track, instantiation by code has been figured out (in fact with Unity when you step out a bit from their intended path you are on your own, in my case 95% of stuff is done by code rather the mouse, a way (officially) not supported by Unity) of course I do profit of Unity facilities by it's not like when one imports models but OTOH there are advantages with code: my scene is not littered with a billion things placed manually
    This is looking so good and promising This sounds like dedication and attention to details, not the random run of the mill "quickest way possible to make it run until the dead-line hits"

    Now when I have these things which I consider essential to qualify the project as a honest 'preview', the cake topping should be addressed:

    - audio/video : will be quick, all low level stuff is written: VAG, WAV, looping, extraction etc ... in fact it was not a matter of simply getting PCM or frames, Unity should be able to consume them, i.e. videos must be OGV and so on

    - the installer : mostly done, basically one will simply insert his WO3SE CD and it will take care of the rest, extracting videos manually is not the faint-hearted and I don't actually expect an end-user to do this.

    - AI/multi-player : will have to be done, no previous experience about it but there is significant info out there and I might even get help from BnG crew

    - interface/navigation : not particularly complex but there are a couple of things I need prepare before

    - shadow/lighting issues : in fact they have 'baked' them in the textures and therefore applying Unity standard shader simply looks worse, this is likely to happen when topping the topping ,i.e. when the game is done and could be modded or whatever (we're not there yet)
    1. Good idea with the Installer

    2. I'd imagine that the AI it's the same deal as the handling, in the sense that it cannot be "reverse engineered"... ? If I recall right, BNG devs also made their own AI.

    3. Are you willing to keep the "origianal-ish" UI style ? Most noticeably, the in-game HUD.

    4. About the pre-baked textures: I totally understand what you're saying and for starters it would be perfectly fine to use no shading (maybe only shadows for the pods... if possible ?) But for the future, when the game it's already playable I'd suggest something like "TexMod" but only "integrated in the game". Much like what Counter-Strike 1.6 is doing since the 2013 Update - It introduced an "Addon Folder" actually named "cstrike_addon" that's "mirroring" (sub-folders structure and all) the actual game folder, (named "cstrike" that's containing the standard game assets) and replacing every asset in game with the content found in the "Addon Folder". So if i drop a proper named replacement custom model in the "Addon Folder" in the right sub-folder, when I load the game, that custom model will be loaded instead of the original default one. So with WXX-Rebirth maybe we could have a folder named "HQ_Textures" and a reference index text or html file with texture names and their "description", so people could slowly populate that folder over time with "standard" ("not baked") textures, or why not, even higher resolution ones. Maybe even better, (easier for the end user) have a console in the game to introduce commands and have a command that will dump all textures as they're loaded by the game and create the folder automatically. Or if an in-game console would not fit the purpose of this project, maybe a launch parameter to the shortcut would put the game in "dumping mode" and dump all loaded textures in the folder. From there, people could edit the textures while already seeing what they're editing and have the names already in place. So, with all said and done and having all textures in high quality and "not baked" we could have another launch parameter so when the game runs, it will load any texture found in the "HQ_Textures" Folder. Also with all those new textures, we could now use some shading Maybe we could even go as far as using multiple textures like bumpmaps and stuff like that... ? Ex. texture_01.dds > texture_01_bump.dds ... ?

    To sum it up / TL;DR:


    Pretty much all the low-level stuff is done, high-level remains for the game internals but as a well as for the Unity side.

    Actually as time passes on, I spend a more and more significant time on the research part and not that much as one would think on coding, i.e. how can this be done efficiently, would it work and is this really what I need ? On the Internet 99% of stuff is crap when you do a search about game programming/Unity/books, beside people here that helped out for physics and stuff I rely on my own approach but this takes time (but in the end it is reliable).

    Another thing is testing, whenever I make changes I have to test and there are 22 tracks, I do not run through all but a few like Sampa Run and Prototype 3 as these have tight tunnels and unless I get an approximative WO experience I'm not happy.

    So progress in this project is like a roller-coaster !
    Reliable and slow it's much better than fast and ugly )

    Can't wait!... to on those tracks

    The red triangles you see are the missing ones I've told, was about to drop off completely if I couldn't get these but an intensive week with an hex editor and a calculator allowed me to figure it out entirely
    I thought those were some selected faces in a 3d editor or something. Glad you figured them out It's a pain to be so close to something and not having it all just because... random reasons. That week's work well worth it

    So many things are ready but I'm simply not pushing them because they need to be optimized, i.e. the scenery loading takes almost 10 seconds on its own because nothing is merged for debugging purposes, if I have say to run the project 100 times a day it equals to ~20 minutes lost in waiting. Add to this the Alt-Tab I have to do everytime I go back to Unity and wait for it to pick the changes (a few more seconds), you quickly end up in lots of time lost by waiting.

    But don't worry, I think I'll soon reach the summit of the coaster and gain a huge speed boost downhill (until next uphill )
    Until next uphill...

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    France, Paris
    Timezone
    GMT + 1
    Posts
    310

    Default

    WO3 is the pinnacle in terms of Wipeout franchise on PSX, before (IMO) with subsequent releases ... I've never played GT because at that time I did not have the PSX anymore (sold it I can't remember for what reason, was 15 then ). I was of those who had and played Bio Hazard in japanese centuries before it's been released as PAL, was astonishing ... now I've played PE2 in the same period as with WO3 so roughly ten years later and had to say it was very impressive though I've never finished it.

    Well I seek quality about this project, we won't be able to get a replica of WO3 at least in terms of sim, but everything will be tweak-able so as I said before, one might come up with better settings than the ones I've picked and eventually we'll get to something closer. I have no deadline and therefore no real obligation but that could have boosted the thing quite a bit...

    The problem with the original is that it is PSX, ASM, and optimized. First you need to know these well (I don't), then since it's ASM there's a ton of inlined stuff which makes things even more confusing and finally compiler optimizations further change the original shape of the code ... that was probably necessary since the game runs fast and is pretty for a PSX game.

    The texture modding should be fairly easy to accomplish since it's really just about different sizes for Unity, a clean integration in the code might be the hardest part; now the shading is in the polygons themselves, i.e. if these are not flattened against their 'parent' shade, HQ textures will be shaded too. This is likely to take a lot of time and I guess will need a dedicated editor. Not sure I'm very clear in explaining basically there are up to 3 color slots so 2 should normally be free but they won't be because this is where are the extra shades for Gouraud-shaded ones and it is what gives these nice colors. I could somehow treat all polygons as non Gouraud but I'm pretty sure it won't look nice ... unless there's a huge work with the lighting sources.

    So on bottom: raw color, global tint, local tint

    2016-03-09 01_53_44-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png 2016-03-09 01_54_04-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png 2016-03-09 01_54_37-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png

    Idem:

    2016-03-09 01_51_08-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png 2016-03-09 01_51_24-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png 2016-03-09 01_51_59-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png

    Idem:

    2016-03-08 03_14_57-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png2016-03-08 03_16_30-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png2016-03-08 03_22_09-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png2016-03-08 03_23_17-Unity Personal (64bit) - SceneAndTrack.unity - WXX-Rebirth.Game - PC, Mac & .png

    In short to get real lighting, it will be very long because one has to normalize these shades, then re-create appropriate lighting and re-coloring -> a job for a graphic artist that will need a tool to facilitate this.

    22 tracks * ~10000 polygons is what to expect and these screens are when I was finding it, now it's deeply buried in the game, would have to defeat it and compare but there are scattered throughout levels. They used a 3D editor and then it was converted, doing the opposite will not be easy

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I think I know what you're saying. (I guess... ) In order to use textures with the nowadays game engine standards in mind, thus, lighting, shadows, occlusion, etc. there should be one diffuse texture (the color map > 3 color channels - R/G/B), one normal texture (the normal map > 2 "color" channels R/B) and optionally bump maps (one "color" channel - could be mixed in the normal map... as "G" channel ? I think Alan Wake was doing something like this... ), occlusion maps, specular map, etc... Not only that, but many (or all I think... ?) textures should be "averaged" by texture artists in order to "convert" them from multiple baked instances into something closely resembling the diffuse map (original intended color map). The one slight "advantage" here I suppose would be that many textures are "duplicates" (tiled most of the time, although in the PSX game itself it's just giving the appearance of tiled textures, since every texture it's being it's own instance being pre-baked multiple times for multiple use instances... ) So many textures are just the same "base texture" but with pre-baked shadows, or lighting, or maybe even reflections... Yep, seems a lot of work, but I think it's "doable" with the help of a few decent texture artists. Many times there will be tens of textures that could only be done once (then, either duplicated and "rename" to the original textures names, either through the game engine one texture could be mapped to a number of predefined polygons... by indexing the corresponding replaceable texture names originally assigned to those poly's ?)

    Anyways, this would be a distant future thing to consider Meanwhile, PSX pre-baked GFX should be totally fine

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    France, Paris
    Timezone
    GMT + 1
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Yes and if it's for sub-par modding I really don't see the point.

    I'm not really a fan of modding actually, HD textures could be interesting but even that sometimes does not look well due to poor environment. I do like nearest-neighbor rendering actually ! And a CRT shader could come in handy (new engine but old look'n'feel)

    I will certainly put these later https://github.com/aybe/RetroArch-shaders esp. the CMYK one, that paper ink color is just great (you really have to play a game you like with it to feel the experience, it's really subtle)

    These are great too:

    https://github.com/keijiro/KinoGlitch

    https://github.com/keijiro/Retro3D

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    36

    Default

    CRT Royale FTW! If you plan on integrating multi-pass shaders like that one, then Bob's your uncle! I COMPLETELY APROVE!

    Better than any shading Oh, I can't even imagine some CRT-Royale combined with some NTSC & S-Video/Composite & VHS passes

    EDIT: Yep, those "Analog Glitch" and "Digital Glitch" look awesome (especially along with some CRT shader ofc )
    The "Analog Glitch" it's currently implemented in BNG as a "visual damage indicator" if I'm not mistaken
    Oh and that "Retro3D" also works very well with this game. Also a shader I've seen in BNG and it's looking fine
    Last edited by 80T; 29th June 2016 at 07:34 PM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •