Apparently, when you get eliminated in wipEout HD multiplayer, you respawn. Yes, it is ****. And no, we don't want it, do we?
Anyone who thinks this should be removed per game update, you know what to do (sign this petition...).
signed
eLhabib
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Apparently, when you get eliminated in wipEout HD multiplayer, you respawn. Yes, it is ****. And no, we don't want it, do we?
Anyone who thinks this should be removed per game update, you know what to do (sign this petition...).
signed
eLhabib
You have my support, fellow Martin of the world.:+
I' m tossing my hat in the other side of the ring. In a MP match online, if you are going to stay connected until the race finishes, than you should be able to respawn.
If they take out respawning, it should automatically drop me back into last place and disconnect me from the match, but that would be a nightmarish netcode to write. No respawns would kill the online community to have people sitting doing nothing because they got bounced out. Especially if it happened right away at the start of a race. Give a penalty for letting someone get blown up, and let them continue playing I say.
Plus, it gives you opportunity's for revenge:banzai
I didn't want to jump the gun here so long as you can turn it off. Some clarification would be nice.
Generally speaking though this is a bullshit 'feature' now the online community has been split up before it even exists because theres no way I'm joining some random game where the moron hoster has re-spawn enabled. And if by some unlikely sheer act of mass stupidity it can't be turned off....
This looks to detract from the game experience and point of the game why bother replenishing your shields when you know you'll just re-spawn? Theres a difference between making Wipeout accessible and taking it too far this is the latter.
Support from me.
Same here from me!
stevie
You don`t even lose much time when you respawn, it seems :blarg I support my fellow Stephens, and the Martins. When you`re dead, you`re dead. Death should be more than just a minor inconvenience.
Otherwise where is the fear of low shields? And if that`s gone so has half the excitement.
Maybe it can be turned off though? In which case we can just not use it.
The time it consumes being blown up (presumably) would equal you losing a race against pilots who are doing perfect laps and such. Trust me, I think you guys are probably blowing this out of proportion. You die and respawn = lots and lots of time lost. I really doubt the game is gonna throw you back in first or second place.
I actually have always wanted that, BUT it should be a excruciating 5 second + penalty before you respawn. Mainly I would like this with multiplayer, but the penalty should be severe. EL, how long exactly is that respawn?
Whats that mr Wip3ou7 you think people might be jumping the gun and over reacting on something before trying it and getting all worked up. Well I never !!
Actually on this issue, I will tell you EXACTLY what happened
The original design was 'dead is dead' no respawn, however, the online team (who have a far greater experience in online gaming experience than I do) argued respawns were a far better option for more players and indeed implemented respawns by default.
Ergo I argued, the best option was... well.. .to make it an option. Thing is about multiplayer, the test time is enormous. Bug recreating and fixing is a lengthy process, if you think you know how long it might be, think again, double what you thought and add some.
When push came to shove we defaulted to respawns on, the code was more solid and it was quicker to test. Respawns off takes longer to test, because you have to cater for extar little things, like the host being eliminated and quitting the game, which is different to them quitting when the game is active and they arent dead, due to the games state machine, etc. In short, respawns off takes longer and it throws up horrible bugs.
Thats not to say we shouldnt ever do it, but we decided on the safer option for launch. We knew it wouldnt be popular with everyone, but we had to make a call and in the first few weeks when lots of new players are hopefully playing, we felt this would be a less frustrating feature than dying and not getting respawned.
So due to the ease of implementation and the appeal to newer players we went with respawns on. Having it as an option for launch, wasnt an option.
Does that mean respawns off wont appear, no. We (the remaining team of which I am not part but I say 'we') are working on implementing several little features to add to the game via updates. Respawns On/Off as a host option I *think* is one of them, though I couldnt swear to it right now.
But really, you have to realise that decisions are not made blindly, and have a little faith. Calling such things '****' and 'a bullshit feature' and 'stupidity' without understanding the reasoning or indeed fully experiencing the feature... well, I'd consider that far more ill-thought out behaviour.. (not to mention some of the other comments elsewhere, really calling someone a ****ing idiot hardly a way to pursuade them to make a change.. hrm ?)
There are many things we want to add to the game and alter and tweak, we dont sit there and say, you know what lets do this cos its daft has no reason and will really ****ing annoy people.... things are actually thought through and decisions made for all manner of reasons.
If everything goes according to the current plan of the team, the game will receive updates (separately to DLC, which is content / data based, I mean tweaks and minor additions) and there will be things added that expand the multiplayer experience. Some small, some hopefully large Indeed I get to spend my weekend helping to design one thing for a game I am no longer involved with whilst others get to work late implementing extra things for a game already released because they care. Not bad for some guys who put in '****' things, 'bullshit features' and make decisions of 'mass stupidity'.
So have a little faith, it beats tearing hair out in despair
Wow, I feel pretty smart, that almost what I said, only way more official and educated.
Neat. Looks like the game I'm programming in my free time is teaching me something.
"I you set respawn on, they will come"
-The Holy Book of Online Gaming- :P
I don't have a lot of experience with online games, only MGSO, and I hate modes with no respawning when you have to wait 5 minutes each time you die to play again. Never thought wipeout could have a respawning option, but I don't see it as a threat that could ruin de online experience. Anyway, to be able to switch it off will be welcome too.
Thanks for the explanation, Colin. I do hope they can patch it, and that at least the time lost through being eliminated is enough that it doesn`t change the gameplay too much. The absorb/use weapon decisions you had to make were a great thing in Pure and that`s what I would fear losing, mostly. But thanks for taking the time to explain the process.
Unfortunate but not a big deal, it appears that eliminations are alot more often than in Pure or Pulse anyway.
Well it was done for Pulse, it seemed to be able handle the situations you describe when someone quits and dies then quits. I'm confused, is the PS3 that much harder to code for that death is death was so hard to do?
I'm not retracting anything till I've played it and been convinced otherwise, how does it not remove a load of strategy and thrill? Your not going to get that heart thumping sensation when the HUD starts screaming at you telling you your about to die and you have someone behind you that could potentially finish you off at any second because you know, oh well I'll be brought back to life, who cares...
If that video is accurate it looks like 4 seconds from death to respawn, hardly enough punishment.
Hope these possible updates become a reality for the not too distant future.
I dunno, 4 seconds is an eternity on Phantom if you ask me. Against skilled pilots you could easily go from first to last place. Are you telling me that you wouldn't be sweaty palming it if you had to fight your way back to number 1?.
But then again, I'm a bit of a scrub, I would probably be in last place against anyone on this board. It took me forever to get golds against the Hard AI in pulse.
Just to clarify, is respawning off by default in split-screen?
I am signing, but at this rate I might end up getting a PS3 + WOHD after the update arrives.
Martin, I agree. My first reaction to that video was the same as yours. Delay the game more so you can write the code, but don't do some thing like that which doesn't belong in WipEout but in FPS games.
And in case you doubt my sincerity Colin, I really mean it.
Anything else like this :turd we can know before we buy the game? You had my money when this was WipEout. Now I have doubts again because it has some FPS features in it. Great job. :-
-Signed: Darkdrium777
Colin, thank you very much for giving us an insight to this issue. I understand that this decision wasn't made out of thin air, and I sincerely apologize for calling whoever it may concern a ****ing idiot. It was a hot-headed reaction, and lacking the insight you just gave. I take it back and appreciate the work you are putting into making the respawning optional in the near future. No hard feelings, ey?
I don't see this as a big deal so long as the respawn time is significant, which it more or less seems to be. I count 4-5 seconds. Hopefully that is a constant amount of time across speed classes because 4-5 seconds is much more significant game-play wise at Phantom speeds than at Flash speeds.
People are such shits in online games-- personally I think that anything that keeps players from dropping out is a good thing :)
Interesting, hadn't thought about that issue.
:rolleyes:
For ****'s sake, they are only trying to make the game better and more friendly to newcomers.
I worked with Foxxy for 5yrs+ believe me I have a thick hide, it takes a lot to offend and cause hard feelings :D
I think what happens when people care about something, in this case a game (but in can be a film, star wars trilogy for example), and they have a high anticipation for it, perhaps through previews, a long wait, etc, then often what can happen is people build up high expectations based on previous games and what they like and want, as such, new things can often seem scarey and unwanted, with Wipeout its a scarey territory
- omg barrel rolls
- omg no pit-lanes
- omg every weapon gives energy back when absorbed
- pilot assist oh no !
- respawns in multiplayer
etc
Sometimes the reality proves to turn out ok, I'm not sure many people miss pit-lanes (I know some do, uhm... tough :D ) something which was a staple for a few iterations and an omission that raised some concern pre Pure.
Sometimes people embrace things they didnt think they would like, and sometimes they dont like them no matter.
I just think people have to give things a chance, and then decide. I can tell you this issue was discussed quite heatedly amongst the team. I was completely against the idea of respawns, but you cant have a closed mind like that when working on something. As it turns out after playing it / trying it, I was pursuaded to change my mind (as were one or two others) and I think it works well and I can see the benefits.
The option would be nice, hell yeah, and I *think* it will come, but I cant confirm that (I'm not going to say 100% incase tomorrow someone decides no never and I get lynched !)
And I do think raising issues and passing comment on features, on forums such as this is useful. No dev team is ever going to listen 100% to its hardcore fanbase it would be development suicide (not to mention impractical as things often divide people). Thats not to say we dont listen and dont take some things on board and consider them, but its always easier to take things on board when people make a reasoned comment over an emotive one :)
I mean, if you make your girlfriend a cup of tea and she says 'euck its horrible, I'm not even taking one sip, its just horrible it is disgusting thats just the worst tea ever the person who made it must be an idiot, its the shittest cup of tea ever'
Are you going to go make her another cup of tea... ?
>>>>>>>
As for the idea of delaying a game 5 days before release over a subjective opinion ....
wow
I dont doubt the sincerity, but what colour is the sky in that world ?
>>>>>>>
Its out in 5 days, I suspect itmight pay to hold back the real GAAAAH for when folk realise that the Beat Zico trophy is really quite hard..
Hah thanks for the nod Colin. Sometimes these people are way too defensive, but it *is* because of how much we love it.
On a side note, what about those PSN Gamer Icons, Colin??
Ok, you think that because I learned about the respawn today a few hours ago that I want you to delay the game again five days before launch.
What I meant to say is that you should have kept working on the game to make respawns at least an option; if eradicating it completely was out of question, before announcing the release and getting around finishing the whole build. That way the game wouldn't be coming out in five days, I don't know when, but it would then not be such a controversial matter. And we would have the option (Just like BRs, it's the same thing, options always make for better stuff in the end, even though it takes longer to implement them)
But thank you for presuming I was crazy or daydreaming, when in fact I am originally French and even though I write appropriate English there is still the difficulty of translating what I mean. :frown:
The thing is, the game was already delayed, we can not just keep going on and on adding things prior to initial launch (thanks to the beauty of PSN and updates we can add things later on though)
There are deadlines and costs. If we were given as much time as we desired, we would stop due to being sick of it, not due to it being done, there is always something else you can add or alter.
We are not given as much time as we desire (very few dev teams for any companies around the world are, I can probably think of 4 or 5 afforded that) With the much documented delays in the summer we had the opportunity to do some things, but not others, not all staff were allowed to stay on the project as other work needed doing, changes and additions are prioritised according to time and staff.
I am sorry for presuming you crazy (albeit in a jovial fashion) but given the tone of your initial post you can hardly take offense I mean you call a feature of something you havent played, ****, and say it doesnt belong in wipeout but in FPS games.
You cant try and shoot someone in the head, then complain if they throw a stone at you
But I didnt mean to upset you or anyone else, I just try to give a few explanations into things when I can, hopefully with a hint of humour
...or maybe folk have trouble understanding British sense of humour. I know some people can get confused when I'm in the pub with friends, they could be forgiven for thinking that we can't stand each other given the amount of piss taking and sheer abuse :P
Yes well is there anything else? The respawn feature has me pretty disappointed, can you say something else about other new features like that? Maybe there are some good ones we can know, or is it find out in five days? :lol
I see what you mean though with the offense stuff, maybe the use of the icon was inappropriate, something like 'this kind of things' would have suited better, but I really don't like respawn and I'm sure you know that when there is something you dislike you tend to get more expressive. I'm sure it was well implemented (There is a big time penalty, and you don't respawn with full shields after all), but it's just the surprise of finding out about this and the fact that it's totally new (Just like you said with BRs when Pure released a couple years back I'm sure it was the same thing) and just five days before release... I didn't want to insult anyone as well, it's just that it's displeasing, as I said before.
Just to let you know Colin, I for the most part am satisfied with your games as they are. Pulse was damn near perfect (for me); I pretty much have next to no complaints. Each iteration had its own personality -- desirable for the most part, but there's nothing throughout the series I would rate as a complete turnoff (except for the single race bug that obliterated my 500+ hour Pulse profile complete with at least a few world records I may never touch again).
One suggestion however for HD. If you haven't already, balance the single player and online experience for heavier, slower accelerating ships by making them slightly less prone to recoil caused by mines, bombs and missiles (perhaps walls too). I'm Ag-sys loyal, but I want to see my Piranha and Triakis compatriots happy in the long run.
While you're there, can you fill us in on the sound sets for each ship in HD? Do they each sound different from one another this time as I suspect from the various videos I've seen?
- F
Or a noticable difference in top speeds between, say, FEISAR and Icaras so that it actually means something?
but we're off topic...
I can tolerate it while its around, certainly having lag-free online is a huge step up from Pulse in terms of the advance of online play. I can't wait until I can actually get a PS3. :/
tbh i think it makes sense to have respawns on 8 player multiplayer.
you have to think of the fun everyone is going to get out of a game, making ppl sit there for 5 - 10 mins while the other 7 people complete the race is not fun for anyone. Having to quit out and spend however long it takes going to lobby, finding new game is not fun if it can be avoided.
For splitscreen multiplayer and as an option for serious matches its great, but for the vast majority of ppl who are going to play online respawning is a good feature.
Isnt it about time we all said woohoo!! 5 days, and had happy thoughts not mad ones?
Why not make it 3 days, so everyone can feel like jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyone who has said 4 seconds
Change of team names perhaps: Icarus to Lazarus? :paperbag
I think there was always going to be an initial storm over this, and I agree with many of the anti-points and the fear of losing the panic and tension that RR described so well. At first it does sound a bit like Halo-racing, but I think we`ve explained enough why a patch would be appreciated. On the other hand I also see the point that for the (hopefully many) new players it will have an appeal, and that I should try before I cry about it. If you`re mano a mano with another guy for the race on the last lap, and you blow up, it will still be a chilling experience and you`ll have lost the win, but you`ll still get some tournament points. Tournament dynamics might change a bit - no more last race assassination/survival battles between the two players who could win. It could make the focus more on the racing than killing in tournaments, but we`ll have to see how it plays. I was kind of looking forward to taking on the role of official photographer after being eliminated, as that role suits my skills quite well! But I think I`ll get over it and won`t let respawning spoil my fun next Thursday onwards. :)
There should be a Beat Zico trophy in Superstardust HD - I cant get anywhere near him in that! ;)
Well the fact that you guys are thinking about adding the option shows that the decision was made responsibly. Lets be serious guys, this game has to do well and if we want to see DLC, we need the masses to keep on playing the game. New options added over time will be great, but first and foremost is to attract the new gamers.
We will always be playing no matter what, hence the decision to leave the option for a later update. It really comes down to order or importance. We need this game to do well so we can all benefit. I wanna be playing this game in a years time still seeing loads of people online.
Give the Dev's time to sort things out, coding aint easy :). Oh and hurry up Colin with the update if you guys decided to do this :)
Just a thought, but most everyone's knee jerk reaction to this has been to say that it will destroy the tension of when the alarms and klaxons start going off and you're about to wipeout.
What hasn't been mentioned yet by anyone is that by diminishing that, you add a new layer of tension to the fact that you just took someone out, and they are now behind you with a bone to pick.
Plus, the first time someone gets picked off, respawns and comes back to get first, I think you might change your mind about how horrible your victory was;)
Stephen : " Icarus to Lazarus? "
:lol
That is simply Brilliant ! i dunno if it's me who is connected to your english humour or you who have some french humouristic roots !
Colin : Due to his cheap price HD will target mass-ps3-owners and of course many new pilots will be introduced to the franchise. I am not against default respawn online : that sounds logical to get attracted to online as many racers as possible and balancing the frustration to be eliminated by a WZ wipeout-fan so they can stay online and improve their skill gradually.
Of course a patch would be absolutely perfect to let us set up a non- respawn online match after a while.
I don't know about Sony's policies related to DL contents : i really hope they release the packs not so close in between them, 4-6 weeks would be reasonable to have time to learn them and also to keep the fanbase happy with new tracks/modes coming constantly.
Looking forward to get my hands on your baby, Colin ( ermm you know what i mean :p )
I am organizing a French Wipeout HD convention this coming weekend in Le Havre, we will be 7 with 2 ps3 and 2 lcd tvs (split screen héhé ;) ), if you want to say a quick 'bonjour' through ps3 chat that would be awesome :)
signed...
cybrpnk
Petition signed. I'm really hoping that a switch-off option is added for this.
Firstly, "omg barrel rolls" - they're scary and unwanted because they change the very nature of the wipeout series from following racing line to following bounce lines, and suddenly making ship bounce a good thing instead of adding to the race time - not because they're new!Quote:
new things can often seem scarey and unwanted, with Wipeout its a scarey territory
- omg barrel rolls
- omg no pit-lanes
- omg every weapon gives energy back when absorbed
- pilot assist oh no !
- respawns in multiplayer
Secondly, "No pit lanes" is not new. Wipeout 1 did not have pitlanes, so this is a return to purity. Yay.
Thirdly, everyone here knows that if you don't have pitlanes and you're going to have shield energy loss (eliminations) in the game, there has to be a way of getting energy. Does anyone even care about absorb?
Fourth, for a very long time "pilot assist" was called autopilot and only lasted for a couple of seconds, so obviously when someone is given the option to race all the time with a partial autopilot feature in a racing game, there's gonna be backlash. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying.
Fifth, respawns in multiplayer? ROFL! How nice is that? A superstressful race and you've finally eliminated someone, and gotten into the lead, when the respawned ship sends a quake which eliminates you. And you lose because of someone who came back after being "eliminated". It's going to happen.
I'm glad to read that part of the reason for having respawns in was to prevent crashes and bugs, because that's a reason people can live with.
Thanks for the explanations, Colin. Please remember when you read, that there are good reasons behind the rabid posts made here. It's just hard to see the reasons sometimes, and besides we all have big heads and mouths to match. XD