WOHD post vs pre patch

[JABBERJAW]

Maybe YELDAR has done this, but I was wondering if we could get a head to head comparison of best TT times ( full race) between pre and post patch. I know he has said single lap differences, but it just seems harder to really maximize a lap now consistently for 5 laps. I'm interested as to how close you can actually get to the previous times over the course of a real race. Maybe an amphesium reverse test and chenghou rev would be a good place to see. It feels like 1-2 seconds to me

[terra-wrists]

Pre-patch I make good times online but no upload to record chart.

Last week I play some offline I do the TT and SL and I beat my old times. I am not usual for play offline so I can not make accurate sample of this. I am happy I beat my old time in campain TT and SL. It is not good time but better from past time. :)

[yeldar2097]

Maybe he has :P
NB: Phantom Only but rules apply across all speed classes

It's very track dependent, as has always been the way. The amount of time gained per BR, per sideshift etc...that has always varied from track to track, now you have the added changes from the patch to factor in as well.
So yes as a result of this, lap on lap will be not only slower, but harder to get close to the optimal time, which in turn makes it even harder to maintain the required levels of consistency to reach the new target lap time for 5 laps.

Taking Chenghou Reverse as an example, the times possible on this track have been drastically changed compared to some others due to the nature of the track. The Boost-BR shortcut is now around 0.2s slower alone, and if you ever did it the way I used to(SS-Boost-BR) it's around 0.3-4s slower per lap, since the SS-Boost is no longer a viable technique there due to the handling changes. Then take the SS-BR just after the tunnel going into the long right-hander. The handling changes make this already troublesome BR yet more difficult to pull of consistently, and not only that, the punishment for not pulling it off is greater still, again this can have more than a few adverse affects on a Time Trial. The excessive braking needed for the hairpin also loses you just under 0.1s even if you take it perfectly.
When you have to take this much into consideration, meeting or getting close to your previous best TT lap is more than a little hard work, and doing it over the course of a 5 lap TT even more so. It generally comes down to how aware you are of the changes to the handling, how the the dynamics of the game and knowing how to adapt accordingly. There's a lot of thinking involved. If you can get your head round that then you will at least know 'how' to do it, then as always with WipEout it's a matter of practicing the execution.
To put it into some context:





Chenghou Project Reverse Phantom TT
Pre-patch
Post-patch


First Lap (best achieved)
21.95
22.30


Best individual TT lap
20.98
21.23


Target/average lap (for full TT)
21.10
21.30


Best complete TT
1.47.24
1.48.64


Best possible (predicted) TT (accounting for human error)
1.46.00
1.47.00



That's all for now, I'll add to this later. Hope this helps in the meantime :)

[scarfrogers]

Totally agree with Chenghou Reverse post-patch slower times per lap Yeldar. On Venom you have to do the double BR in the tunnel just to get close to pre-patch times! Fine example mate :) and great information

[JABBERJAW]

Fantastic report! I was just a bit over 1 second slower on chenghou rev. Amphesium felt worse though, maybe due to less practice.

Do you have a video of your post patch run? For educational purpose :)


If you can break a turn instead of side shifting, should you do it now, as long as you are not sliding out?

[AG-wolf]

So what exactly did they change? Ship characteristics, game engine physics, off-track handling properties? Is this update meant to coincide with the release and inter-connectivity of people playing it on the Vita?

[yeldar2097]

Unfortunately I don't have videos of any of those runs, was just something I did back in the day for testing purposes.
As for Amphesium I haven't actually played it since the patch but I'm sure I could do a run-down of how that would/should work out since I know how the game plays.
Nowadays you want to be doing as much steering as possible, as little braking as possible, Sideshifts are no longer of any advantage in a straight(ish) line and timings through corners should be adjusted in order to max/min steer/braking accordingly.
So now it's much more like conventional racing in that you really need to work to maintain a line that will allow you to conserve momentum as efficiently as possible.

In essense AG-wolf, they adjusted the airbrakes such that they are more like conventional airbrakes now, big flappy panels that slow you down.
All you really need to know is that lateral acceleration due to airbraking is no longer a factor so brake timing/distances/positions have all changed, at every speed, your speed through a corner will be slightly lower and sideshifts are also affected (due to the small braking applied when sideshifing).

Also do bear in mind that with the little table above, the predicted best possible TT states 1second, which is a tall order, however think that with the same level on refinement (relative to what we have done so far pre-patch), I think it may be possible.
For the most part I would say expect your times (assuming you were approaching your limits before) to be over 1s slower. Anything less than that and it just means you're a better pilot than you were pre-patch :).
That said, despite the remaining possibility to beat the current Phantom WRs, I think it would take too much time/work/broken controllers for it ever to happen, certainly if you don't enjoy the new handling like myself.

Something like that

[AG-wolf]

Ugh, jesus, I just tried doing some speed lap / time trial runs and now I understand why it felt like something was wrong whenever I tried to race online over the past few months.

They must have done more than just adjust airbrakes... I wasn't a really big fan of HD to begin with, but I grew to tolerate the way it played; now it feels even more awkward and empty than before.

I guess I'm done with the series at this point. For me, Wipeout ends with Fusion. :c

[yeldar2097]

It's only the airbrakes, but it changes everything.

[blackwiggle]

I thought it might of been me imagining handling changes, since I haven't played HD/FURY in ages and have only been playing it recently for the Omnium tournament, but even allowing for being rusty, I know this game well enough to sense something had changed.
It really became noticeable to me during the recent SL portion of the comp, where doing a Phantom SL is pretty much the equivalent to playing a guitar rift 5 times in a row, you're doing the same steering/braking for each corner each lap at the same tempo

At first it seemed to me that craft were more susceptible to any side to side camber of a track, especially noticeable to me on tracks like Amphesium and Sol 2.
I'd tap on the air brakes to make a minor adjustment to my line like I would normally if it was slightly out, but then found for some unfathomable reason my timing for the next turn would be out, and I would be scraping, if not hitting a wall, like a change of tempo to a slower one of a few mils
Some minor, but fundamental change to the way the air brakes are now operating since the patch, being more effective as brakes I suppose, would seem to be a logical deduction to what is happening.

[Colonel]

Whilst I wouldn't argue that there isn't a difference since 2.51, I'll say this - I spent ages in Racebox before the patch trying to get the best SL / TT etc times that I could, hence nearly 400 records on the rankings site. Now I'm not the fastest player around, but I have put a fair amount of effort into my times.

Anyway, during Omnium, specifically the SL and TT rounds, I've got personal bests on most of the tracks I've attempted, most of them without too much fuss. I've also recently got a number of PBs online, including my first ever top 5 time. So I think unless you're in that top percentile of players (yeldar, Booney et al), there's still a lot of headroom, even with the altered handling.

[trackripper]

Oh god, I've been out of the game for this long? When did this patch happen?

[phaeton_pl]

My 2 cents:

Anulpha Pass Phantom Speed Lap

Pre patch - 20.06

Post patch - 20.08 (same method, Icaras HD, 12 pads, 6 barrel rolls)

I wasn't playing Wipeout for 18 months and i came back straight with patch 2.51 so i had to learn how to play "from the scratch".
I don't know, maybe Anulpha Pass isn't the best example and my long break had some influence but i can't feel the difference that much.
All I can say is that airbrakes are slowing you down more than before and sideshifting is harder to control. I also beat my personal best on Talons Junction Rapier Time Trial after one day of racing that track after the break. I totally agree that differences are track dependent but i dont think it is 0.2 - 0.3 seconds on phantom speed lap.

[amplificated]

Hmm. Let me preface this by saying I have no experience with the latest patches.

I would say Anulpha Pass on Phantom possibly relies the least on airbrakes and sideshifting out of all the tracks; other than the SS-BR just after the second tunnel there's only minimal need for it, or it can be countered by its necessity being reduced (e.g., not needing to use it as often or as hard in the first tunnel because its stronger effect requires less use to course correct, so you can maintain more or less the same line and speed because it's such a long corner - this can also be applicable to all the corners on the track). On Talon's Junction the extra loss in speed may even help a bit on that tight penultimate corner, given the rest of the track is not particularly difficult/mostly straights - not to say it particularly helps the overall time, though it's another track that other than that corner requires less than average SS/AB use.

Still, sounds like you've made a really good effort given the circumstances.

Just to repeat, I haven't played in well over a year to date now myself, so I'm merely theorising. The big takeaway for me is that HD is slower and stripped of some of the ballet that I enjoyed.

[UB3R~JKP]

Whilst I wouldn't argue that there isn't a difference since 2.51, I'll say this - I spent ages in Racebox before the patch trying to get the best SL / TT etc times that I could, hence nearly 400 records on the rankings site. Now I'm not the fastest player around, but I have put a fair amount of effort into my times.

Anyway, during Omnium, specifically the SL and TT rounds, I've got personal bests on most of the tracks I've attempted, most of them without too much fuss. I've also recently got a number of PBs online, including my first ever top 5 time. So I think unless you're in that top percentile of players (yeldar, Booney et al), there's still a lot of headroom, even with the altered handling.

I concur with Colonel. I'm faster than I have ever been right now.

[yeldar2097]

For the most part I would say expect your times (assuming you were approaching your limits before) to be over 1s slower. Anything less than that and it just means you're a better pilot than you were pre-patch :).


Of course, depending on your level pre-patch, the amount each pilot is able to improve relative to the best (possible) times will vary, and as such I those trying to beat a pre-patch Top 5 will have a harder time improving their times than Top 10, etc...

Under the old handling I could beat any PB of mine in TT/SL within about 45 minutes, some being easier than others, naturally. Under the new handling I haven't really come close. Granted not much time was put into it, but it's telling nevertheless.

The more you practice/hone your skills the faster you will be and the closer you will be to the limit. At some point you will have improved to the extent that you 'overtake' your old ghosts under the new handling, meaning you're even better than you would have had to be to beat them before.
However there is a point at which this will not ring true, depending on how close your old times are to the new limits, at which point the improvement needed in order to overcome the patch is much greater.

[scarfrogers]

^ I agree. It is when you are trying to get that 0.1-0.3 extra a second per lap that the patch shows. When trying to crack into the Top 5 this becomes so important, trust me I have tried for hours (prob days, God weeks, hell maybe months in total played) on certain tracks lol

[Hoooof]

However big the difference it, its clear that there is a difference post patch. Any game with a major part based on leaderboards should never make any changes which affect the leaderboards (except maybe in the first few months after release). Changes either give an advantage or disadvantage post patch. Either ruins the leaderboards.

In this case, what was the point of making the change so many years after release? Its hardly going to attract new players. All it does is damage a major part of the game.