Watering down the Class to win...

[Kyonshi]

I don't know if its the right term or figure of speech to describe this, but anyway...

I find it sooo childish that the host passes from Phantom to Rapier, or (s)lower Classes for that matter, to win against someone who's on a considerable streak or just to win straight away. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be the WipEout police and tell people what to do. But when it's so obvious, when i'm on a winning streak, i see more and more people do this. Don't know if it's been going around since a long time. Also, i can understand when the host is a newcomer or a low rank, low experience pilot. But when someone do this move, i just think it's kinda lame. Even more if the host is an outstanding pilot, starts the race right away, without giving people a chance to change ships...

Not trying to be deliberately offensive to anyone, but that's how it appears to me.

I find it worst than rage quit actually. I don't make a big fuss out of it though, it's nothing dramatic. And you people, how do you react to this?

[Aeroracer]

what are you saying kyoshi
are you saying it is bad or cheap to lower the speed class to win ro are you saying it is cheap and bad to not allow a player the time to change the ship or leave the room.

[SaturnReturn]

I'll leave Brummpahh to defend his own actions, but I'll say now that I don't much like it when people start threads calling out individuals in such a way, seemingly without having spoken to them individually. To me that does seem like more of a fuss than is necessary, because it immediately makes it a bit personal. Not a fan, to be frank, or steve, if he's feeling frank. That came out wrong, but you get what I'm saying, i.e. talk to brumm for any issues with brumm.

Anyway, to answer the question in general: Yes, it is annoying when someone changes speed class and we don't get a chance to leave before the race starts, but there's a quit button in the pause menu. It doesn't really take that long to leave the game (unless it freezes or something), and the only negative impact is a possible loss of some ranking points, which I don't think many people are bothered about anyway. So although I find it a bit annoying, it's not a bit deal to me, and I'd never think it's because someone was trying to stop a specific person winning. Maybe to stop themselves getting blown up all the time at Phantom, but I doubt it would be an action so aimed at you Kyonshi, even if you were on a big winning streak.

[morfeo378]

for example I personally do not mind the change of speed, so if it bothers me, is not giving time to change ship:twisted

[brummpahh]

When i'm host - i'll select mode. That's it.
I gave enough time to select ship or leave
or whatever. I'm best at rapier - so why don't
select that ? Feel free to leave my room and go
for a cool nice beer to calm down :nod

[Aeroracer]

pretty much how it is.

i have upped the speed from venom to phantom in my rooms cos i can do phantom ok.
i have also gone from phantom down to venom too
i allow time for ship changes and for players to leave.
i see no problem in this and no one has ever complained though i do sometimes get requests which i do when im hosting so everyone has fun.:nod

[blackwiggle]

I usually pay little attention if the host has changed the race class or tracks until the race has started.
It's a "your the host, surprise me" sort of attitude
Phantom to Rapier is OK by me, Phantom to Venom though is too big a shock to the system, I think I'm suffering huge lag when the race first starts, until I look at the amount of laps, then it twigs it's Venom and I can go and make a cup of tea while racing.

Changing race type though annoys me, if I wanted to play Eliminator or Zone Battle [rare for me to play either] I would of chosen a different room.
If I'm hosting and want to change race type and the room is full of people I don't know, I quit my own room, and then start another with the different race type.
If it's friends in the room then I'll message the change Y/N and wait for the reply.

[Aeroracer]

fair point....especially about game modes as not everyone knows all the modes...
for me i dont play eliminator so i wont ever join a room if the room i am in changes to it i wil leave and find a race room..:nod

[Kyonshi]

First of all people, i'm not über-pissed off, fulminating all around about this issue, like i said in my first post.

I did not proceed with a personal attack against Brummpahh with this thread. I was more an interrogation regarding such way to react/act. To illustrate why i ask such things, i had to explain somehow what happened for me to point out the question, and that involved such skilled pilot like him. Maybe that's what lead you all to think i was secretly angry?

I said it and i say it again: i didn't say he was cheap/lame, only the move that seemed to be happening here. I know its easy to think i did. But again, it was not the case, and i still have respect toward him, and he knows that.

The answer your 1st question Jasmin, i think both are cheap.

Saturn, i know there's the Quit button and all. Maybe i didn't want to quit and try to search again for the very few Phantom rooms available these days, if there's any. With the introduction of PS+, a lot of newcomers are into WOHD and they don't necessary play Phantom. I actually did the race anyway also.

Brummpahh, again, i didn't want to hit you on the head, but i assume what i said and don't try to give lame excuses or change my comments like it was "just a joke". In opposite to what you said, you did not allowed some time to change ships and you keep the same track (Chenghou Reverse) to race on. Mostly that's what brought me to think this was kinda suspicious and cheap. It also crossed my mind that a pilot with expert skills such as you didn't need to do that, i was surprised of this. And again, it's not the only time i see this happening. Another reason why i came up here to ask people. People have aaaall the rights to do whatever they want while hosting, but sometimes its very hard to keep abstraction of the obviousness of changing Classes and start the race in a split second because the host is facing a losing streak, and not necessarily facing me. There's much better pilots than me out there, i don't try to buy pity out of people and say i SHOULD have won.

In the end, i didn't want to send you out in the bonfire. It could have been anybody, it's nothing personal. You're free to think whatever you want, but i'm saying this out of good will.

[IDReaper]

Hey Kyon, I think you make be over thinking it xD. If you are in a room where pro pilots are simply pulling away every race in their particular speed class I think it is understandable that the host would want to change to a speed class where they can be more competitive. Downshifts in speed I don't think are that bad, phantom to rapier being an example. I don't think the host is trying to sabotage you as much as simply be able to keep up you know? Even though I know a lot of us here are super competitive over Wipeout there are still people who aren't and like to keep things mixed up, casual racing in a way. What I find worse is when I get into a venom room and the host switches it up to phantoms real fast and hits go. There he's just trying to punish new players or get easy times.

The thing about the instant start however yeah can be annoying but I think I could find the patience to wait until the next race to select my ship. Or u could msg the host or simply quit.

I think the big thing to remember here is that online single race is really not half as serious as say speed lap, due to the inherent randomness of the metagame. Simply fly as fast as you can and blow stuff up. If you don't win just be cool about it. If you don't like the way the room is being run, ummm, well :P I dunno it never really struck me as being life or death ya know?

A bit of advice that helps me out, if things simply aren't going your way, kill something:twisted Always makes me feel better.

If I talk like a scatterbrain I'm sorry:g Just random thoughts that came to me from your post. Keeps hitting the tracks man:+

[Kyonshi]

Reaper, I already said that i can understand that hosts not as experienced as we are may change the Class to something more suitable to their rhythm. The case that specifically happened in my explanations seemed to be based on an impulsive move by a very skilled pilot. I also didn't said i had to win and that i had to be given the chance to keep winning, or that someone tried to "sabotage" my streak like you mentioned. I did the race anyway on Rapier. I never said it was catastrophic but simply that maybe this type of action has been going on without me really noticing it. Of course its not a matter of life or death. I'm far from feeling screwed up if someone change Class lower than Phantom :) But i certainly don't like someone shifting from Phantom to Flash or the dreadful Venom.

[IDReaper]

:O venom is mah buddy :O (lol jk) I went back and read ur posts, okay things changed in your other posts but in you first one what I recognized from your comment was that you didn't like it when people change speed class to beat you(like in general, not specifically u lol)? I think? I dunno I've never been one for reading comprehension but as far as noticing this the only time I have noticed it is when a phantom room has been passed along to another pilot. He lets it go phantoms for a few races and after losing for a bit switches it down to something slower. I can't say I have had the same experience for as you truthfully so it's a little difficult for me to understand. So I don't really have a reaction to express :D

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding things:brickwall I'm just trying to put together what you and the others are saying about this topic.

[Rapier Racer]

I've experienced this and it was a long time back so it has been going for a while. Something slightly different I noticed on rather a few occasions, the host will set up a Phantom room to goad people in then quickly change it down and hit X almost instantly. This is just plain annoying and in doing so changes my goal from potentially trying to win the race to simply painting a target on and bombarding the host as much as I can throughout the race with the intention of elimination.

The people that don't allow a small amount of time for ship change, not that I change ships but I can imagine how annoying it is also need dealing with, in a swift and rockety fashion.

[Aeroracer]

Haha thats funny.inconsiderates get terminated by way of rockets..

[mic-dk]

IMO you're reading a bit too much into someone changing speedclass and starting in a hurry.

When it happens to me (which isn't often), I simply quit the race if I don't feel like a venom|flash|rapier race. Which I don't... :)

What I hate more is when the host quits a busy room and the new host don't realise that he/she/it is the new host. One would think they would catch on after the same track has autostarted 3 times in a row, but sadly no... :)

[UB3R~JKP]

If people have such a problem with this, why don't they start their own room? Just throwing it out there if they can't handle pilots who want to make a room more of a challenge by trying to evening out the odds, no other two ways about it in my opinion.

[Aeroracer]

something about room host that bugs me a little..

they pick a track and you beat them..
they play the track again and you beat them
they play the track again and they win
suddenly they pick a different track they win
but they wont play again cos they won..

i change the track regardless of if i win/lose..as a host i want everyone to have a good time and not get babyish or silly because thats what a host is supposed to do.

plus side about these types of room hosts is you dont feel bad when you turbo past them at the finish line or single them out for some rocket massage..

its also funny when you win 10 times in a row and they still wont change the track and everyone has left the room.

[SaturnReturn]

I probably seem guilty of that sometimes. I might repeat the track if crazy lag shenanigans go down, like getting pushed through the track, or like the other day, where I got knocked off Sol2 and stranded on a wing for ages. But it's not like I'm trying to do it until I win, just until I have a normal race. If I do win though, then that's exactly what it would look like. When I host, I've more recently started to do two races per track if it gets like that. That way everyone has a second chance if the first one sucked for them.

[Aeroracer]

thats fine me too.but im talking about serial play till i win that track types..not the host that messed up and plays again here and there..

[Kyonshi]

something about room host that bugs me a little..

they pick a track and you beat them..
they play the track again and you beat them
they play the track again and they win
suddenly they pick a different track they win
but they wont play again cos they won..

Or after all this, they leave the room the minute they finally win. I chuckle everytime i see this... Pfffff... :)


I probably seem guilty of that sometimes. I might repeat the track if crazy lag shenanigans go down, like getting pushed through the track, or like the other day, where I got knocked off Sol2 and stranded on a wing for ages. But it's not like I'm trying to do it until I win, just until I have a normal race. If I do win though, then that's exactly what it would look like. When I host, I've more recently started to do two races per track if it gets like that. That way everyone has a second chance if the first one sucked for them.

Exactly my type too. I will repeat the track if:
- Laggy ships are pushing me around and making me fall off track.
- I slightly touch some structure on the sides and it rockets me 100 feet high in the sky for half an hour.
- I get destroyed because someone initially hit me with a weapon and while i'm paralyzed on the track, the following pilots take the opportunity to unleash the Apocalypse on me.

At this point it doesn't really bother me if i win or lose, its like you say, i wanna have a normal race.

I will also do the same track again if someone among the pilots, who is my friend online, gets destroyed. Just to give a second chance because i know how this can be heavily annoying :P

[Aeroracer]

what about the fake id brigade who play in a room and win a game cos they were lucky run away instantly then come back on in a different id and lose like normal..thats so funny when you know its the same player and you send them a text saying hi and good games but accidently say there last user id name instead of their current one they are using..

or howabout the players who get beat slag you off with rude texts then change id's come back in then pretend to be your friend..

all these types of activities and you thought wipeout was just simple racing....:P

[RedScar]

I couldn't even find a phantom race today, first time I've logged in in a very long time but everything was elim or flash/venom which is bah. The one rapier race I did make it in didn't have anyone who could compete, won twice by 10 seconds and I'm not fast compared to most ppl on this forum.

I also waited in a server that was running a phantom tourny, but it was on the 5/7 race so I decided to wait it out. Tourny finishes and host switches it to elim......RAGE!!!!!!!!

[Temet]

I personnaly agree with Kyonshi's initial post.
I didn't read the fighting posts after, don't care about them :)
That's all for me.

[UB3R~JKP]

That's very arrogant of you Temet, oh well...

[Rapier Racer]

... if they can't handle pilots who want to make a room more of a challenge by trying to evening out the odds, no other two ways about it in my opinion.

I disagree.

What dropping the class does is offer the less skilled host a little more control over the ship which may or more likely as I have experienced may not make it any more competitive at all. They just get smashed at a slower more boring pace as the Phantom pilot is still better at navigating the track and quite possibly with the weapons too. The very reason I tend to drop out there no buzz to a race like that.

[UB3R~JKP]

I disagree.

Phantom pilots are bred for speed but rubbishing other classes is nothing short of pathetic...just cause you don't see the point doesn't mean it ain't there. If you come out of your "phantom master race club" tinted classes you may see that.

Bit of a laugh you think phantom pilots are better than pilots who main other classes, wonder what JJ will have to say...

Also, are you saying Mini cup drivers are less skilled overall in comparison to F1 drivers in hindsight?

[KGB]

This has been covered a little before here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6862&highlight=online+Etiquette)

It does leave a wry smile on your face when things like this start happening. Personally It winds me up a bit if someone plays a track over and over until they win and then move on to another track. It's is if they are waiting for what they consider the right result to occur and all other results previously were erroneous.

Shifting up in speed annoys me more than dropping speed classes, this is where they usually do the start-straight-away trick. You get the feeling that they are chuckling to themselves 'he he, I fooled them, losers'.

All this is based on what I think is true of course the reality may be different.

Remember: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you :D.

[kanar]

I disagree. If you come out of your "phantom master race club" tinted classes you may see that.

heey Rapier is retired anyway no? :D Plasma dude, should be great to see you online more often!

UB3R, I agree there, & would have been awesome if JF took a little of his time to show us his skills at the cup. I don't know exactly what mini cup is; but I would compare venom & phantom with karting & F1 myself. As I'm used to phantom, I feel venom like a slow motion movie. But the fact I'm feeling like neo in the matrix doesn't prevent me at all to face a Smith agent (yeah JJPAP I'm using again my dumb analogy I served you recently ah ah) and deeply eat the dust. Because my reflexes are based on phantom speed, and my br spots, more important, are based on phantom speed too; what I'm trying to say is venom, flash and rapier (regular) users have a slight advantage compared to phantom pilots only, as they know more (useful) br spots. And they're used to this speed more than an exclusive phantom junkie.
But hey, Ayrton Senna didn't make his entire carreer into karting :g

[Aeroracer]

I started playing wipeout on phantom.my attitude to other speed classes was if its not phantom you are rubbish and unskilled..only phantom mattered all non phantom players are rubbish.
Luckily for me i do not have this total crap incorrect attitude anymore.
now i have played all speeds i have realised lower speed players use different skills.i have played and beaten good phantom players on slow speeds but have lost to phantom players who can play all speeds as all phantom players cannot compete at all speeds.same as venom only players can play phantom.

Trashing low speeds is not right.miss a pad on venom and you lose the game miss a pad on phantom and it makes little difference

[Kyonshi]

Something striking me is that, except the fact i may brought my point in a mistaken way, most people find it annoying and lame that some players may shift down Classes and start-right-away, while i was criticized to over-think it all :)

Anyway, i'd beg to differ from UBER~JKP and agree with Rapier Racer.

We cannot deny the fact that most beginners play lower speed Classes and most experienced play at least Rapier and higher. Now i've seen a lot of low rank players trying their luck on Phantom and quickly realizing they can't fit in there for the time being. They will retro-grade to lower Classes. Kinda confirms what Rapier Racer said. Slower speed means better control for less experienced pilots.

Phantoms pilots may find this a bit boring and can legitimately assert so. On the other hand, i firmly believe that, based on personal experience and observations done through 2 years of playing, Phantom players still have the upper hand whatever Class they play into.

If you try to be a race technician at least a bit, you easily adapt yourself and still point out where the BR spots are and where those can't be performed the same way as in Phantom, if not possible at all. Reaction time of Phantom players are inevitably more developped than those of Flash or Venom. Playing at Phantom Class kinda puts you into sort of trance, getting yourself concentrated and navigating in the most surgical way to grab Speed pads and at the same time managing pick-ups. What's the result then when you play on lower Classes? You race while your mind steps back and can take more time to analyze what's going on. Having your anticipation senses sharpened on Phantom does logically make you a better pilot on lower Classes, and i believe this can also be applied and observed.

I played a lot of races on Venom yesterday. I mostly never do that but there was so few rooms to play and i wanted to race anyway. I won most of them with the Spare Time badge. I don't what does this mean to you people but i kinda see it like Rapier Racer does :)

This said, i think its wrong to tend to see Phantom players as up-tight people who despise the lower Classes. As far as i'm concerned, i take nothing for granted, anything can happen, anything is possible. But the facts are there and can be observed. To everyone what fits them best, but nothing convinced me yet that an everyday Venom pilot can race adequately in Phantom.

[JABBERJAW]

I think that a hosted room should remain the same speed class, that is why someone joined your room in the first place. If I was playing venom, and someone switched to phantom I would be agitated by this. It doesn't make sense to change that when people joined your game to play at a specific speed. I think the changing ship thing is an accident though, just trying to get the game started again, and not waste a crapload of time

[kanar]

Just like I said Kyonshi, Ayrton Senna moved on to phantom class. But there's pilots around here, who never made this step, cos' they're more at ease at lower speed. You can beat 'em in phantom, but you couldn't compete with 'em at their own fav speed class. Sorry but I don't know well JF(thebest smthing); I think he doesn't like phantom, but I know for a fact he's a serial killah at lower speed class.

[SaturnReturn]

Indeed, there's a big difference between the average player who is starting out and can't handle phantom just yet, and those who continue to push and improve on lower speed classes. There are plenty against whom I know I personally wouldn't stand a chance at lower speed classes unless I did a lot of learning.


That's very arrogant of you Temet, oh well...
I think he just meant he doesn't care for arguments. Fail to see how that's arrogant.



...rubbishing other classes is nothing short of pathetic...
But calling other people pathetic just because you don't agree with their opinion is perfectly fine? Even though I disagree with RR's opinion too, I consider 'pathetic' quite a strong word, and quite insulting. Not sure why you seem to be having a go at people here in this thread JKP, but I'd appreciate it if you could share your opinion with less attacks on peoples' character. That goes for the thread in general - I've had already requests to close the thread, so let's please keep this friendly.

[leungbok]

IMHO phantom speed prepares you better to be competitive on slower classes than the opposite ! Learning new BR spots isn't the most difficult !
But i'm not a phantom only dictator hey, i play and have fun on all classes!! ;)

[SaturnReturn]

I agree it's not too difficult to learn them, but to cover all the tracks takes a reasonable investment of time, so against people who really specialise at those classes I think plenty of phantom racers would struggle, if they were just thrown into it, probably (massive speculation).

[JJPAP]

But the fact I'm feeling like neo in the matrix doesn't prevent me at all to face a Smith agent (yeah JJPAP I'm using again my dumb analogy I served you recently ah ah) and deeply eat the dust.

Sorry for moving away from the actual subject, getting back in a while ...
Definately not a dumb analogy, Kanar (took a while to get it, though, rewinding my mind back all those years to The Matrix Years - almost Lumiére, hehe). I´m absolutely convinced: Different speed classes = Different skills. Almost 4 different games, each taking more than a couple of hours to master ... :D ... And I´m not the one to define what the "preferable" skills are - or speed class. You like - You choose. Simple as that (to me).

Actual subject ("Hosting"):
I really don´t see the problem! It´s a 3 sec annoyance (well, like a bad respawn!). Just leave the room, make a new room and host the way you think the game is supposed to be hosted :D

[Aeroracer]

I agree with you saturn and jjap about all classes have there own skills .you cannot assume just because you play phantom that you can easily win on lower speeds.i thought i could and found out i couldnt.there is a big dfference.i respect all speed class players with equal respect now.

[Rapier Racer]

Phantom pilots are bred for speed but rubbishing other classes is nothing short of pathetic

Rubbishing other classes? Anything below Rapier I find boring, which is my preference, how is this rubbishing? Dropping classes and sharply starting the race, purposely not allowing people time leave the room is pathetic. I failed to see any increase in the competition on the occasions it happened to me, since you seem to have missed a key part of that post, let me help you out. AS I HAVE EXPERIENCED.

On no occasion did the class get lowered for me to then have my ass handed to me, thus formulating the opinion stated. I've not played online for a while so even if I got back into it, this may not be the case any more.


If you come out of your "phantom master race club" tinted classes you may see that.

Why would I want to willingly drop my class choice down? My sense of entertainment would go down with it, generally speaking, Rapier is the only other class I find entertaining for a while at least. Phantom class tinted?


Bit of a laugh you think phantom pilots are better than pilots who main other classes, wonder what JJ will have to say...Also, are you saying Mini cup drivers are less skilled overall in comparison to F1 drivers in hindsight?

YES!! That's exactly what I'm saying, as you can see in my post by the many times I made comparisons of a fictitious game to real life sports, none of which I'm interested in and one I've not even heard of.

[RedScar]

Why can't we all just get along? This discussion of opinions has now started down the ugly road of personal (whether direct or indirect) attacks. :(

[amplificated]

It's more annoying to join a single race game and the host changes it to zone battle or eliminator. I don't really like those game modes :(

I don't mind speed class changes that much. The most annoying things are when the host starts before you even get a chance to leave, or takes too long to start. Or choosing the same track over and over again... Or just choosing a linear path through the tracks, going from Vineta K to Tech De Ra (fine in Avalon, which is competitive, but a bit tiresome and uninteresting against random people).

If the host ever does something that doesn't gel with what I want from the game at the time, I'll leave. It's not a big deal - there's usually other rooms with people in them.

[Sausehuhn]

Agreed, amplificated.
The host should always give a few (more) seconds after he changed whatever parameters. It's especially annoying when the host keeps pressing the X-button and does not leave you any choice in choosing a different ship or time for leaving the race. It's even more annoying when you're in the ship selection and suddenly the host starts the race. Because of that, more than a few times I had to use crafts I can barely handle.

In face the game should have some mechanisms that prevent the host from acting „unfair“. E.g. if the host changes the settings, he has to wait at least ten seconds before he can start the race. Or if people are changing their ship there could be some kind of countdown for both, host and the player who's selecting his favorite craft.
And those symbols signaling the mode, track, speed class etc. could be colored red or something when changed, so you can directly see what's been changed by the host.
But that's dreaming anyway ;)

But I agree: It's almost most annoying if you've all the tracks in the game's order; Track A forward, Track A backwards, Track B forward, Track B backwards etc.
Or combinations like Track A forward, Track A forward, Track A forward, Track A backwards, Track A backwards …

[SaturnReturn]

We're covering a lot of topics here now. So it really is a redundant thread due to the existence of the online etiquette (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6862&highlight=online+Etiquette) thread KGB linked to earlier, as well as the racing etiquette (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5327) one in the Pilot's lounge. Therefore, I'm gonna close this thread now.