Keyboard control?

[Dan Locke]

I've come to the conclusion that Wipeout HD just isn't suited to the DualShock 3 controller, to the point that I haven't even touched the game in weeks because I know that playing it will be an exercise in futility. Because of the analog stick's placement, I have to awkwardly push and pull it to steer and barrel-roll, and I don't get half of the precision that I need. Because it has squishy triggers (and awful ones, at that) instead of buttons, the double-tapping required for sideshifts is all but impossible unless I actively concentrate on s e p a r a t i n g the presses from each other. I've tried using the crosspad and shoulder buttons instead, but I'm even worse with them (I will never be able to understand how people can play games effectively with crosspads).

So, given my complete hopelessness at this game with an ordinary DualShock 3, I've decided that I'd be far, far better off using a keyboard. The problem is that, from what I've read, many PS3 keyboards inexplicably lack certain essential button functions (like the triggers, for example), which would make them rather unsuited to Wipeout HD. Supposedly, Penguin United is coming out with an FPS-oriented adapter (called the "Eagle Eye" or something like that) that would let me plug in a keyboard for use as a fully-functional controller, but their site makes no mention of it, and I don't even have a suitable keyboard to use with it (my family and I all have laptops, and our single desktop has a wireless keyboard, which would likely be incompatible with the adapter).

Any keyboard recommendations?

[rdmx]

Coming from a fairly experienced PC gamer here, I can tell you that I would take a controller, no matter how odd any day over a keyboard when it comes to racing games - an all digital input is not that good for racing games.
This point I have to concede to the 360 controller's concave triggers - it is obvious Sony were trying to emulate this in some fashion but in their adherence to keep the 'playstation' style controller made it rather unusable.

[Dark-Twisted]

Is there a trick that I don't know about because I thought that while keyboards were compatible with the XMB, they were... deactivated?... for games... :S

[Koleax]

I'm missing something as well. As I understand it, keyboard support has to be programmed into the game and very few games support it. My bluetooth keyboard connects to the PS3 fine. I can control the XMB and use it to send texts, but it will not control WHD.

If there's keyboard support at all, via some adapter or something unconventional, I'd be all over it. My intro to Wipeout is the Mac version of 2097 and that's my first control choice.

[JABBERJAW]

I'll be making one after the wipeout tourney in august. I just do not have the time right now.

[ProblemSolver]

Thanks god the keyboard era is over. A keyboard really distract from a game
when being used as a steering input device. But I would also like to see more
keyboard support in games for assigning shortcuts and stuff.
Well, Dan, you better tinker a little bit more around with the DS3. I once
started out with analogstick only (for about a year), but have then adapted
myself to the d-pad and are now able to enjoy the game on various scales.
And the shoulder buttons (L1/R1) work like a charm considering side-shifting.
Try it! Ok, if the DS3 doesn't feel natural to you, no problem. But if a
keyboard would make one any faster, then I guess most of the top10 players
can also go faster using a keyboard. Hence, being faster with a keyboard is
relative at best. But if a keyboard feels more natural to you so be it.

On a personal note; I hope keyboard & mouse doesn't make a return. The (PC)
gaming industry has suffered from it quite too long. How many shooters can we
take? Joysticks were abandoned long ago (the game-port wasn't easy to program,
bad standards to say at least). For sure, one could also use a controller on
a PC, but the games were never really built for it. And with the advent of
input devices like the Wiimote, Playstation Move, and Natal, the PC now even
loses traction to the consoles and will fall behind even more as time goes
by, since games won't be portable any longer. And I don't assume someone will
do something similar for the PC any time soon. You know what? I don't even
think 3-D gaming will carry over to the PC. It never took off on PC despite
multiple attempts were made. In summary, some games play better with a
keyboard like cs and WoW, but supporting a keyboard doesn't serve the gaming
industry as a whole. I wanna play new games using the PS Move in 3-D
giving me an unique experience. Supporting a keyboard as the main input device
is always a step backward. It's a nice addon, like it's done on the PS3.
Anyhow, that's at least my take on the keyboard & mouse discussion. I think
a hardcore PC gamer will argue the complete opposite. xD

[rdmx]

Frankly I don't see why K+B support is a step backward.
An average PC gamer with a keyboard+mouse setup could wipe the floor with any 'pro' console fps gamer especially if they have no auto aim to rely on. It's a much more precise setup.
The uptake of 3d gaming on console isn't going to be too great either when you consider that you need to buy a new TV to take advantage of it. People have just started the uptake of highdef screens, how many are going to race out to buy 3d capable hardware?
-Playstation move/natal
This video is why move/natal is a mere novelty at best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT1BHz7Ck1o
I don't quite fancy flailing about to play a game. Maybe if technology significantly improves and we start having 'minority report' style controls for rts games...
Mind you, gamepads are admittedly still better for racing games.

[JABBERJAW]

keyboard/mouse is far superior in fps games, but not for others. wipeout hd would work great with it, as there is no advantage to analog control as there should be for a wipeout game. if it was possible for pure pulse, it would be incredible I think with the pitch thing and barrel rolls would be easy.

[Amorbis]

It is possible to use keyboards as controllers through an adapter on the PS3. I've never used one but there is such thing as the XCM XFPS, which can be be found here:
http://www.xcm.cc/XFPS_4.0_Force.htm

From my experience with playing the 2097 demo on the PC, I wouldn't use a keyboard for WipEout, but I don't see why you shouldn't if you prefer it.

[Dan Locke]

@ProblemSolver

What's so bad about the keyboard/mouse combination that PC games have "suffered from it", and that it's "a step backward"? The keyboard is, by far, the best digital input device ever conceived, and the mouse, while nowhere near as good as an analog thumbstick for precise movement, beats it soundly for everything else. And don't try to tell me that "wave and hope"-style motion control like Natal is anything but a ridiculous, technology-driven fad - sure, it's technically impressive (for the moment), but it's only suitable for niche uses. I'd rate its practicality somewhere between that of the DDR pad and the Space Orb. There's no way that people are going to trade in the practicality and versatility of a traditional controller or keyboard for the horrid vagueness of motion control, except for party games.

What motion control diehards always fail to understand is that, without a way to limit motion to what is possible within the game's environment, the system doesn't work at all - at least, not in the way that they say that it does.


I think a hardcore PC gamer will argue the complete opposite. xD
I happen to belong to the glorious PC gaming master race.

@Amorbis

That adapter looks nice, but I'm not sold on the idea of having to use my whole laptop as a keyboard. That said, my laptop's keyboard is better than any standalone keyboard that I've used (scissor switches > dome switches), so it might actually be better that way.

[Connavar]

If you're right handed, then I agree analog stick is not the way to play Wipeout
HD, because you have to use the left stick, barrel rolls on it etc.

I agree with PS, just use the d-pad and L1/R1, give it some time, and you'll see
it actually works great!

[ProblemSolver]

... What's so bad about the keyboard/mouse combination that PC games have "suffered from it", and that it's "a step backward"? ...


... Frankly I don't see why K+B support is a step backward. ... An average PC gamer with a keyboard+mouse setup could wipe the floor with any 'pro' console fps gamer especially if they have no auto aim to rely on. It's a much more precise setup.

I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you
would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an
afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly,
there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset
of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my
life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.

Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry).
If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have
gone this way with the 360 and PS3. But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most
games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If
it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M
as well. But that's just not the case. Sure, K+M is more accurate for some
games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it
takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be
applied at the same time.


The uptake of 3d gaming on console isn't going to be too great either when you consider that you need to buy a new TV to take advantage of it. People have just started the uptake of highdef screens, how many are going to race out to buy 3d capable hardware?
My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy
a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a
3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows.
Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your
graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no'
standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the
story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an
essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move,
obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension
while viewing stuff in 3-D.



... This video is why move/natal is a mere novelty at best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT1BHz7Ck1o
Yeah, I know that one. It's the latest video / gif on the web. xD

Anyhow. Whether Natal or PS Move will be successful or not depends on the
developers. Personally, I think the PS Move is underestimated due to all
the weak Wiimote games. The PS Move has a lot more potential. And Sony has
already said to the developers; "If it doesn't work on the Wii, it won't work
on PS3 either. So don't blame us if your game doesn't sell!".

However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward
within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things
of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even
games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on
the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield
any benefits.

[Amorbis]

This adapter requires a PS/2 keyboard, which can be seen in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNDGE239EoY

It accepts a keyboard and a mouse, which you can assign to different buttons and axises.

[JABBERJAW]

connovar, I wouldn't use a keyboard/mouse because I don't like them much, but the barrel roll would be fast as heck considering you fingers are on both buttons at the same time, and you don't have to make the dpad travel accross the middle. Also, if you are used to it pitch would be great as well, very fast.

[Dan Locke]

I apologize in advance for the extensive quoting, but it's the only way that I can make all of these points simultaneously without degenerating into incoherence.


I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly, there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.
But nobody even said that. I don't want a keyboard for Ratchet and Clank; I want it for Wipeout. That's why I made the thread on a Wipeout forum, specifically mentioning a Wipeout game. And it's no secret that I prefer keyboard control for the other games in the series - I could list several reasons here for why it would be better in this case.


Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry). If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have gone this way with the 360 and PS3.
You know why they didn't? Because they're consoles.


But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M as well. But that's just not the case.
Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".


Sure, K+M is more accurate for some games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be applied at the same time.
Right, so the challenge shouldn't be in the game itself; it should be in trying to control it. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?


My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a 3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows. Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no' standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move, obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension while viewing stuff in 3-D.
All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. As it is (and most likely will be until we develop the technology to upload our minds into the games themselves), what you call "3-D gaming" is just the same old stuff that we've had since Battlezone back in the '70s, but forcing the player to mime every action. How is that more fun or immersive? If anything, it's less immersive, as the complete absence of tactile feedback breaks any possible suspension of disbelief.

So, yeah, Natal and its ilk are only good for stuff that I wouldn't consider playing in the first place. The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.)


However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield any benefits.
Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. By the way, Metal Gear Solid 4 is a continuation of a series that started out on the MSX (an '80s Japanese PC), Uncharted is essentially a 3D version of Flashback, which was an Amiga game, Wipeout has its roots in Powerdrome on the Atari ST (and let's not forget that the first two installments of the series were released on the PC and Macintosh), and the idea that there's no PC equivalent of Gran Turismo is beyond preposterous.

[Connavar]

deleted

[ProblemSolver]

... Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".
I'm not sure whether the vast majority plays CoD on the PC. Anyway, that's
not the point. The point is that K+M isn't as attractive on a console as it
is on the PC, because there are many different types of games on consoles
not playing well with K+M. And it seems like that supporting K+M isn't of
any real demand on consoles either, since a shooter can also been played
well with a controller. Sure, aiming is faster and more precise with K+M
but on a console each and everyone has the same input device. And who said
that a shooter can't be played well with a controller? Most of the advantages
of a K+M setup lead to unrealistic behavior; in reality you just can't aim,
turn, and look around as fast as you want. But who said that a shooter needs
to be any realistic? ;) Well, I played KZ2 and MGO (a lot) online, and I have
to say that I do like the controls, even if I can't hit the left eye of an
opponent every time. These games play fine with a controller, no need for
K+M, honestly.



All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. ...
Don't take my "3rd dimension" literally. Thing is, using a 3-D input device
in conjunction with a 3-D display will enhance your 3-D immersion / sensation.
Let's talk about Holodecks and the Matrix about 50 years from now.


... The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.) ...
I think here lies your misconception. The PS Move isn't a replacement for
mouse control. It seems like that you are underestimating the issue of
navigating within a (stereoscopic) 3-D scene, perspective projected onto the
screen, with a 2D input device that lives on the projected screen. Your
argument leads me to the conclusion that you never tried it at all. I did 3-D
visualization of fluid simulations on a 3-D PowerWall using a 3-D input device
making it possible to track and to emit particles at precise spatial
locations. Watching and navigating all the stuff in 3-D is a completely
different thing than anything what is 3D or 2D. A 2D mouse doesn't help the
slightest. If developers build suitable games that make good use of the
spatiality the PS Move has to offer, then you will see that the PS Move
isn't just a "barely-passable replacements for mouse control". Quite the
contrary is the case.


... Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. ...
The discussion was / is whether K+M would be better or not. And I said; no,
it isn't. And I extended the discussion saying that K+M isn't really necessary.
And I also said that K+M focused games on the PC haven't lead to many great
games within the last years. And this was the reason I listed some great PS3
games, games that don't feel like they're missing a keyboard or a mouse.

And I make a further claim. I claim that you won't be any faster using a
keyboard against anyone in the top10 or even top20 who know how to treat the
d-pad and analog stick, respectively, not under normal racing conditions nor
under ZONE. From ZONE I can tell you that the analog stick is irreplaceable
for some turns / tracks. No matter how good one can control the d-pad, some
turns can't be managed with the d-pad at very high speed, nor would be a
keyboard of any help. Anyway. How many hours have you played WipEout HD using
the d-pad & L1/R1 to claim that the DS3 is not suited for WipEout HD? And why
do you think you would be "better off using a keyboard"? How do you measure
'better'? What's the metric? If it just applies to you, no problem. But if
you speak in general terms, then I hope you can actually proof it.

But don't get me wrong, I don't want you to distract from trying to play
WipEout HD with a keyboard and having fun with it. I would even try it myself
just for the sake of it. Anyhow, my statement simply is that K+M isn't the
Holy Grail as many PC gamers do believe it is. From my perspective; you just
haven't given the d-pad & L1/R1 a serious try. And switching over saying that
a keyboard would be better for WipEout HD, without given any proof, is pretty
much prone to generate some long discussions nobody wants to read. xD

[JABBERJAW]

I think both have their legit arguments. If you have ever seriously played a fps with a keyboard mouse, the analog controls just do not cut it. They are way too inaccurate once you are used to that. For wipeout hd/pure/pulse, the game was made to be played fairly equally between analog or digital control, not like the older games, where the negcon ruled because of it's smooth turning. There should be virtually no difference between the dpad vs the keyboard, except for the quick barrel rolls, so if you are fast enough with the dpad, then they are equal. The keyboard is a slightly faster input device, especially if you are used to it, and may give you a slight advantage. However, for lots of games, the analog stick is required to hit precise angles that a keyboard/dpad just won't, or you may need to run slow, and the digital inputs just do not give you that opportunity.

I would say though that the keyboard, is a far superior controller to the dpad for the old wipeout games, with pitch being separate from the steering.

In reality, it seems that the ds3 controller or any controller of it's ilk are the best controllers for a wide variety of games, but for any individual game itself, there is probably a different type of controller that is best for that "specific" game. Be it negcons, wheels, joysticks, keyboard/mouse, wiimote, ect.

[SaturnReturn]

I don't see the point in switching to keyboard. You can't really measure how good you are without comparing to other people. To compare to others you have to try and keep as much constant as possible. If the keyboard turned out to be superior and you improve your times with it, then people can easily dismiss those times. You wouldn't know how much of the performance improvement was the keyboard and how much was practice. Also, if you ever went to a convention then the chances of a keyboard being legit would be slim, I would have thought. (I think others have kind of said this too and feel I may have said this all before in a different thread somewhere :?:).

There are advantages to practising with different controls though. It teaches you different things. There are a lot of barrel rolls where I've found it has helped immensely to learn exactly what to do with pitch by trying it with both stick and d-pad. The d-pad can also take its toll on your hands more than the stick, or so I've found, so I try to warm-up with stick when doing TT and then go for gold with d-pad. So maybe keyboard could also teach you new things, but if you want to compete on an even playing field then I agree with what has been said before about using the same controller as everyone else.

Finally, I use d-pad and a fair few decent pilots do too, but the pilots who I consider the very best in TT and online all use stick (to my knowledge).

EDIT: Actually, just remembered one uses d-pad, but at least 80% use stick.

[Dan Locke]

I'm not sure whether the vast majority plays CoD on the PC. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that K+M isn't as attractive on a console as it is on the PC, because there are many different types of games on consoles not playing well with K+M.
NOBODY EVEN MADE THAT "POINT". Don't you get it? I only want it for Wipeout HD!

Enough with the stupid "Keyboards and mice aren't the best possible input devices in every situation, therefore, it's silly to use them" red herring.


And it seems like that supporting K+M isn't of any real demand on consoles either, since a shooter can also been played well with a controller.
Not half as well as with a mouse.


Sure, aiming is faster and more precise with K+M but on a console each and everyone has the same input device.
And people don't have the same input device on PCs? By the way, you can plug a DualShock 3 into your PC like a gamepad; I use it all the time for Spyro the Dragon and Super Mario 64.


And who said that a shooter can't be played well with a controller? Most of the advantages of a K+M setup lead to unrealistic behavior; in reality you just can't aim, turn, and look around as fast as you want.
If you care about realism, mouse control is the least of your worries. Also, how is the fact that gamepads are harder to use a point in their favor?


But who said that a shooter needs to be any realistic? ;) Well, I played KZ2 and MGO (a lot) online, and I have
to say that I do like the controls, even if I can't hit the left eye of an
opponent every time.
You could if you had a mouse.


These games play fine with a controller, no need for K+M, honestly.
So, we've moved from "Keyboards are only good for a few kinds of games" to "Keyboards are only good for FPS games" to "Keyboards aren't even good for FPS games". How the heck does that work?


Don't take my "3rd dimension" literally. Thing is, using a 3-D input device in conjunction with a 3-D display will enhance your 3-D immersion / sensation.
But there's no "sensation" when my hand moves right through stuff with no resistance. 3D works for movies because you don't actually have to interact with them. Speaking from experience, though, it isn't half as good for games as the hype makes it out to be.

(Said experience comes from a tech demo that I played around with at a museum. I was impressed by the technology, but I was hardly interested in the application.)


I think here lies your misconception. The PS Move isn't a replacement for mouse control.
Really? All that I've ever seen the Wii remote used well for is pointing at various objects on the screen. Otherwise, it's just gimmicky miming with the dual detriments of being fiddly to use and making you look like an idiot while you play with it.


It seems like that you are underestimating the issue of navigating within a (stereoscopic) 3-D scene, perspective projected onto the screen, with a 2D input device that lives on the projected screen. Your argument leads me to the conclusion that you never tried it at all. I did 3-D visualization of fluid simulations on a 3-D PowerWall using a 3-D input device making it possible to track and to emit particles at precise spatial
locations.
Well, that's all fine and dandy when you get to see particles swirling around your arm, but I can't see it having any appreciable benefit for navigation in games.


Watching and navigating all the stuff in 3-D is a completely different thing than anything what is 3D or 2D. A 2D mouse doesn't help the slightest. If developers build suitable games that make good use of the spatiality the PS Move has to offer, then you will see that the PS Move isn't just a "barely-passable replacements for mouse control". Quite the contrary is the case.
I hope that you're right. As of yet, though, I still haven't seen any compelling uses of the technology in games.


The discussion was / is whether K+M would be better or not.
Which is exactly why your comment was completely irrelevant. Or did I misread the phrase, "neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield any benefits"?


And I said; no, it isn't.
Actually, you said, "No, I don't care if it is or not."


And I extended the discussion saying that K+M isn't really necessary.
Neither is a Space Orb, but it sure is helpful when you're playing Descent.


And I also said that K+M focused games on the PC haven't lead to many great games within the last years.
And I showed you how almost all of your "examples" were based on keyboard-controlled games.

You really can't accept the idea that a keyboard and mouse might be better in some situations than a gamepad or motion controls, let alone that there are many situations in which it's always better.


And this was the reason I listed some great PS3 games, games that don't feel like they're missing a keyboard or a mouse.
You're being rather revisionist there. When you actually listed the games, you were making the "point" that they couldn't be (or hadn't been) duplicated on general-purpose computers. Now that I've listed examples that disprove that idea, you go back and change the reason that you posted them in the first place.

Bad show.


And I make a further claim. I claim that you won't be any faster using a keyboard against anyone in the top10 or even top20 who know how to treat the d-pad and analog stick, respectively, not under normal racing conditions nor under ZONE.
When did I ever say that using the keyboard would make me the next Hellfire or DarkDrium? I couldn't care less about your "further claim".


From ZONE I can tell you that the analog stick is irreplaceable for some turns / tracks. No matter how good one can control the d-pad, some turns can't be managed with the d-pad at very high speed, nor would be a keyboard of any help.
I never cared about Zone mode anyway.


Anyway. How many hours have you played WipEout HD using the d-pad & L1/R1 to claim that the DS3 is not suited for WipEout HD?
About one. As awkward as the stick's placement is, trying to use the stiff crosspad effectively is even worse. As far as the shoulder buttons go, they're about half an inch too high for me to be any good with them.


And why do you think you would be "better off using a keyboard"?
I don't know; maybe because I have the same experience with Wipeout 3? Maybe because I'm already worthless enough with crosspads in any game, let alone a precison-demanding one like Wipeout HD? Maybe because I have years of experience on the keyboard playing games across several different genres? Heaven forbid that I might actually know what I can use effectively!

Honestly, how can you sit there and seriously believe that you're more knowledgeable than me about the input devices that I'm better with?


How do you measure 'better'? What's the metric?
Walls hit divided by minutes of playing time?


If it just applies to you, no problem. But if you speak in general terms, then I hope you can actually proof it.
Reason #1: Keyboards are far more responsive than crosspads and triggers will ever be. Given a keyboard, I could do a barrel roll in an instant. Side-shifts would be even easier.

Reason #2: Keyboards give me more control. With the stick or crosspad, I can't turn or pitch without one axis affecting the other, while a keyboard lets me separate them and increase my accuracy. Also, a keyboard lets me access up to five buttons simultaneously, while I lose time moving my thumb between a gamepad's face buttons. (Not that I use any face buttons besides X while playing Wipeout HD, but it's a huge point in the keyboard's favor nonetheless.)

Reason #3: Like the final example that I gave for the last reason, this doesn't really have much to do with Wipeout HD, but I still couldn't ignore it. Keyboards are more versatile. I would love to see an attempt to integrate the equivalent of hotkeys into a console game. It would be a trainwreck - but, on the keyboard, any conceivable command is right there on the number pad. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.)

And those are just advantages in the keyboard's favor. With the mouse, even more possibilities are opened.

I agree that gamepads do have many advantages over keyboards (especially the thumb-stick, which, while terrible in Wipeout HD - although that may be due as much to placement as it is to anything else - is excellent in most other contexts), but keyboards are hardly the useless, antiquated relics that you're trying to paint them as being.


But don't get me wrong, I don't want you to distract from trying to play WipEout HD with a keyboard and having fun with it.
"Despite literally everything that I've said up to this point, I really think that you might be right."

Get real. You really think that I'll buy that?


I would even try it myself just for the sake of it. Anyhow, my statement simply is that K+M isn't the Holy Grail as many PC gamers do believe it is.
No, your "statement" is that keyboards are terrible for games and that motion control is awesome.


From my perspective; you just haven't given the d-pad & L1/R1 a serious try.
I have. You think that Wipeout HD is the only game that I've tried to control with that wretched thing?


And switching over saying that a keyboard would be better for WipEout HD, without given any proof,
Aside from the proof that I've, you know, given.


is pretty much prone to generate some long discussions nobody wants to read. xD
Don't look at me. You're the only one in this thread who's tried to turn this into an argument. I just want to play Wipeout with a keyboard.


I don't see the point in switching to keyboard. You can't really measure how good you are without comparing to other people. To compare to others you have to try and keep as much constant as possible. If the keyboard turned out to be superior and you improve your times with it, then people can easily dismiss those times. You wouldn't know how much of the performance improvement was the keyboard and how much was practice. Also, if you ever went to a convention then the chances of a keyboard being legit would be slim, I would have thought. (I think others have kind of said this too and feel I may have said this all before in a different thread somewhere :?:).
You're acting like the keyboard would play the game for me. I have no idea how that logic works.

[KGB]

long discussions nobody wants to read. xD

Yep :) :+

[SaturnReturn]

Dan Locke has frequently dismissed the rules we have here and amassed a number of infractions since joining. The latest one I gave him for the post ahead of this one was worth more than a standard unnecessary quotation infraction, IMO, so I gave one I felt was deserved. This resulted in an auto-suspension, which, having checked further, I believe will last about a week, and I think seems about right.

[JABBERJAW]

I did like this quote exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProblemSolver
How do you measure 'better'? What's the metric?

"Walls hit divided by minutes of playing time?"

that is actually a pretty good measurement :)

Was'nt this thread just about wanting to use a keyboard to use on Wipeout HD though because someone likes using it better, and says they control better with that device. I don't think it needed to turn into this sort of argument. When I get done making it, we can see how it works. It is unfortunate it will not work on pure/pulse, because that is where it would wipe the floor with a regular controller due to the pitch issues, but for HD, I am thinking similar results if not a little better for the same person skilled in both controls. Some people cannot get used to the keyboard though, and many, many people don't want to get used to it.

[Anonanon]

I thought I'd never see the day where someone would find the controller to be anything less than ideal for Wipeout. Unless if you grew up playing WOXL on PC with a keyboard. The first thing I did when I bought a PS3 and WOHD was changing the steering to D-pad, and the brakes to L1/R1. Voila, super snappy input! I'm not going to argue, because I've seen PC FPS players play using inverted mouse before.

[JABBERJAW]

many would say the dpad is less than ideal for wipeout, especially the older versions. It's just what you like really, I don't see any disadvantage of a keyboard to a dpad with buttons. you can have 5 finger on buttons at all times, covering everything except look back, so the ability to be more responsive is there. Most find the keyboard annoying though, I know that, and it is bulk

[rdmx]

Curious question, what did you mean by "If the keyboard turned out to be superior and you improve your times with it, then people can easily dismiss those times"?
What about the negcon, widely considered to be necessary for getting good times? :S Mind you, some have proved that its not so necessary :P

[yeldar2097]

I don't suppose that means I'd be aloud to use a DS3 attached to a PSP for Pure/Pulse at the next convention would it? :P

I swear if you used a kb for WOHD you wouldn't have enough fingers cos both your thumbs are taken out of the equation. Tried WOXL with kb and i couldn't for the life of me sort out thrust, shooting, airbrakes AND pitch. Beyond me, by miles :nod

[SaturnReturn]

@rdmx - In this case I just felt like DL seemed to be stating that the game was unplayable with a DS3 and that a keyboard would solve all his problems, i.e. be vastly superior such that the game would then be playable for him. To me that sounded like quite a big leap. Such a leap would then make me question how good he actually is. I think if a person wants to improve, then eventually they will always be looking at their times and ranks compared to others. If he changed to keyboard and all of a sudden the game was much easier to control and his rank improved by 50 places or so, then how would he know how much of that was the keyboard?

I do realise that this all falls apart a bit in some ways, as lots of different people use different types of controller. It's very true about NeGcon. For me it would be the same case to some extent. If the NeGcon was considered far superior and I didn't have one to use then I wouldn't compare my times with a standard controller to those achieved with a NeGcon. It did have one big difference for me though, in that it was a controller made for the Playstation to control a racing game.

At the end of the day I don't care what DL does in terms of how it affects me, but I spent quite a lot of time wondering about d-pad vs. stick, and tried other controllers which people claimed were better, and at the end of the day I found it better to just stay with the DS3, as everyone else seemed to manage with it and now I know exactly where I stand. So I just wanted to offer that point of view.

[JABBERJAW]

yeldar, you could use a sixaxis for the tourney officially, since it has been allowed by sony themselves. I found it to actually not work quite as well, not sure if lag or inputs occasionally not working, or I just wasn't used to it, it didn't feel as responsive as the actual psp controller. It was WAY more comfortable than the psp though. I actually tried out RDC's bluetooth negcon on pure and pulse, and that was pretty good, but I don't think even if I practiced with it that it would be as good as the psp controller. Do you use the sixaxis for pure/pulse?



"What about the negcon, widely considered to be necessary for getting good times? :S Mind you, some have proved that its not so necessary"

About 99% of the records in wipeout1/xl/2097/3/3se are done with the negcon, so it's pretty clear that is the better controller for those games. Not that someone cannot get a great time without it, but the consistency isn't there. I'd challenge anyone to take a analog stick or dpad and race arnaud in wipeout xl and beat him even once in 100 races.


there is no need for the negcon in the newer games, as it is made for the dpad/analog stick. There is no slide to the ships like in the older games, OR mistake pitching. You cannot mistake pitch in pure/pulse/hd, so the issue is just left right. The smooth turning in wo1,xl,64,3 is not present in the newer games. In HD you do not continue to slide, and there is also only 12 degrees of movement. Once you brake in the newer games you have "grip", unlike the older games. Also, bottoming out doesn't slow you down anywhere near as much in the older games

The main reason that the negcon or analog sticks do not have an advantage over the dpad, is that you can sideshift anything, resulting in immediate grip, this was not possible in the older games, as you had to time "early" your turns, and correcting mid turn was difficult.

Yeldar, for someone who played lots of fps on the pc, I could see this being better for them. the dpad would be the arrows. then for the left hand, you would need two fingers on brakes, one for gas, one for weapon(spacebar thumb maybe), and one for absorb. look back would have to be the button next to the index finger. So I think it would be very possible to play well. Especially if you have the same setup for all the wipeout games. Wipeout 3 would need to be a little different with the turbo, but then I would turbo next to one of the brakes, since you don't really brake and turbo at the same time in wo3.

OK, that was really boring, in August after the tourney, I'll make one and we can see how it plays.