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SaturnReturn
4th June 2010, 06:00 PM
Well, we probably all know by now that there are (or have been for some cases) ways to improve times and scores in HD that are considered unacceptable by some, but perfectly fine by others. But what do people think is the best way to deal with these methods?

Should we:

a. Keep them a secret as long or as far as possible so that as few people use them as possible; or

b. Show everyone so that we all know what is possible.

c. Leave it up to the individual to do what they consider fair/right - because ultimately it's just a game.

d. Sit around shrugging because we're really not sure.

I guess there are arguments both ways. If you know what the methods are for getting a massive shortcut, for example, and how much time it will gain you, then you can look at the top of the leaderboards and more easily tell what kind of time you can achieve with a particular method. Connavar's site can be used to filter out any methods where consensus says they are unacceptable, so it isn't too much of a bother for anyone close to the top (which I suppose raises the question of how to achieve consensus and not just start arguing about it). But further down the boards it would be quite irritating for a person in, say 50th place, because they wouldn't have anyway to tell if someone used the methods or not (well maybe in SL, but less so in TT, for example, where they could have used it on one lap and then done 4 normal laps).

So is it better to try and prevent these methods being used, perhaps by not showing them in videos or discussing them etc? What does everyone think?

I'm not looking to directly question any particular method here, or whether it is acceptable or not - just wondering what people's views are on how to handle them.

I vote d. - I just don't know.

yeldar2097
4th June 2010, 06:05 PM
Keep them secret so people like me don't use them to get illegitimately good times.

Keep them secret because the boards are a disgrace.

If you find a glitch/board-breaking shortcut you have a responsibility to keep it to yourself and not to use it. We all love the game (a bit too much in some cases :lol) so we all know that it's important to preserve the integrity of the boards blahblah etcb.

I'm right you know :nod

*Jedi mind trick hand movement*

SaturnReturn
4th June 2010, 06:10 PM
Well then I'll add a further question:

Once the method is out there and a few have used it, is it fair game for anyone to use it? Once there's one video of it, should anyone using it then post a video so we all know they're using it?

Temet
4th June 2010, 06:11 PM
Good idea Sat :)
My personal feeling : they must not be public ... simply because the reality is that you can't trust everybody.
Some people showed me a lot of glitches with private vids because :
- they trust me not to use them (I didn't even try actually),
- I'm really too bad to worry anybody on the ranking board :g

We all know some people used glitches to get #1 on the rank board, and we all know some would use these glitches to get a good rank, even if they are modest pilots.

Let's be honest and fair, let's use our skills and training, not the defects in the game ;)

Woopzilla
4th June 2010, 06:28 PM
Since I feel some people seemed to have misunderstood my post in the other thread I'll say it here:

-It should not be shown.
-It should not be used.

This is because it seems way over the top for a shortcut. I'm not too sure that a consensus will ever be reached though because in essence it's similar to BSB. If people can't agree upon BSB, then there's a fat chance that a glitch like shortcut will.

In my 'personal records' I can see a time that wasn't uploaded (I don't how long it's been there or if it was Single or Multi) but now I'm scared to upload it because it would be rank 3... People will now go: "Ohhhh you set a good time after seeing that video? I see...". But I know 100% that I NEVER use exploits.

Too bad there's no hope for a magical wipe of the leaders and a bug fix patch. *dreams on*

KGB
4th June 2010, 06:37 PM
I'd love to see them all, I still don't know where this famous Seb climb (is it reverse?) glitch is :redface:. I could never be bothered to use them anyway. Who cares about the tables these days, they were corrupt a long time ago. We all know who the top pilots are, and who can get good times and we can usually spot a glitched time. Who's gonna send me a link to them all :D.

Out of interest can someone name the tracks that these glitches/Uber shortcuts appear on as I can only think of Moa rev and Talons (rev?) as what I would think as glitch. I may use what you call a Uber shortcut myself without realizing.

SaturnReturn
4th June 2010, 06:44 PM
That's a good point Ken-chan. How will the community even know something is considered unacceptable if they've never seen it? Some things are borderline, which tends to be the cause of controversy, so surely some people have to know about it to judge it. People have different standards too. Some could consider the Ubermall Reverse shortcut too far as it misses out that really tricky chicane on the hill. How do we know what's crossing the line if we don't know where the line is?

mic-dk
4th June 2010, 06:58 PM
Security through obscurity has never, and will never, prevent secrets from getting out. It's good practice to lay it all open to the community, and soon someone will find a new way to break your program. That gives you a chance to fix it.

Except...

We don't have anyone to actually fix the problems.

I have come to accept that the in-game leaderboards are beyond repair, so in my view, it can't be broken any more than it already is by revealing all the glitches. As others state, Connavars site is The Truth when it comes to real rankings.

That still leaves Saturns questions on what to do with eg. a TT with one glitched lap and how a consensus is reached on whether or not something is a glitch or a clever shortcut. I vote D on this... :)

KGB
4th June 2010, 07:05 PM
All these glitches and shortcuts have been found by the best players anyway. People forget sometimes that it still takes a lot of skill to pull them off. With the Ubermall reverse shortcut my success rate has to be 20% at Phantom. I do think it is just a shortcut though, the same as CP rev, Sol 2 for/rev (over/under the wing) and Moa for. Errr...not sure what my point is now, I'll post it anyway :D. It's hot and I've been drinking 8).

leungbok
4th June 2010, 07:58 PM
I agree with you Kgb, about the shortcuts on ubermall, chengou reverse ...
They're old tricks and are considered as legitimate to all wipers for what i know. But on one side they can be considered too as glitches because they benefit of a lack of respawn. Maybe we can consider them as an exception because they follow approximately the track's path.
The long range shortcuts like sol2 or moa reverse are an other problem IMO, the time benefit is too huge and you avoid to race on a big part of the track.
To make people understand i recently found accidentaly a glitch wich allows a lap of less than 10 seconds on a track at phantom speed ! In that case i could avoid 70% of the track, which is a total nonsense.

I consider myself as inacceptable :

- shortcuts that gives more than half a second of gain.
- shortcuts that passes across walls or structures except the amphiseum reverse official shortcut ;) (sol2 passes a structure, moa reverse passes across the ceiling)

KGB
4th June 2010, 08:09 PM
Does this Sol2 glitch actually work, I take it is the one that you hit the lip and boost over the top track. On the video he doesn't make it.

What do you think of the CP rev shortcut then Leungbok as I've always been under the impression that it gives you about 2 seconds advantage?

leungbok
4th June 2010, 08:14 PM
the gain off the shorcut on chengou reverse is not that great, but maybe more than half a second ;) And as i said it's now an old trick used by almost everybody on the ranking so let's close our eyes on this one and the 2/3 similar :lol
It works on sol 2 unfortunately !
About that, if you accidentaly use a glitch during a speedlap session, you must pause the game, and quit the game directly using the ps button of your ds3/sixaxis or the "quit game" option on xmb, if you don't want to save and upload that glitched time ! ;)

KGB
4th June 2010, 08:24 PM
Cool! I'm going to try it now......joke. Believe it or not I once fell off the top level on Sol 2 and landed on the lower level, I had to wait about 15 seconds for Soccermums to catch me up. Never managed it again as I respawn every time.

If you suddenly find me in the top ten SL for Sol 2 you will know that I succumbed to temptation :P.

AG-wolf
4th June 2010, 09:03 PM
It's a tough call...

on one hand, I'm really curious to see what people are doing that are considered huge shortcuts or glitches

on the other hand, I know once they get out into the open, everybody and their brother will start exploiting them.


It's not so much a big deal here on the forums, the community here has the sense enough to delineate between their "legitimate" times and the glitch/shortcut times, so people know how they achieved their time... but it sucks when a game gets broken by a handful of quirks/glitches and then the gap between "good pilots" and "ZOMG 3 SECOND LAP GLITCH EXPLOITER EXTRAORDINAIRE pilots" becomes miles wide (F-Zero GX, anyone?)

In the end, I still vote to share them. Like I said, I'm just really curious to see what people are capable of... Lots of times, these exploits and shortcuts, although kinda cheap, do require a lot of skill to accomplish... and I, for one, am always impressed when I see Really Cool Sh*t from some of the top-tier WO pilots out there.

amplificated
4th June 2010, 10:25 PM
I consider these "developer oversights" to be the shortcuts where it's a close call between success and a respawn, or they've actually put in barriers to prevent it from working (e.g. bsb), or no-clipping more than just a small part of the ship through a building. If you have to carefully find your way through pure trial and error by avoiding the invisible barriers or fly through a building, you've found yourself a developer oversight to abuse.

I would like there to be a place where top (and trusted) players could find out about the latest uber-shortcuts, as it would help to discern which times/players have abused one of these oversights or not. (uber-shortcuts also look pretty cool, admittedly :P)
Perhaps a members-only forum on this site, as not all of us are close friends and share them with each other; though I'm not a fan of the idea of a closed off sub-community. Perhaps if it was solely for this purpose of sharing these "glitches".

So yeah, I think for the general public, these things should be kept secret, as there's no other way to help keep the leaderboards as clean as possible. While it's bad enough with a handful of players going out of their way to get abused times, it would definitely be worse if the boards were flooded by them just because every other player saw a video of it on youtube.

I think SL should have done a better job with the respawn barriers, as a lot of these shortcuts, I think, are clearly not intended to be possible.

Dark_Phantom_89
4th June 2010, 10:26 PM
I'd say share them but don't use them. Yes it's a little easier said than done, but at the end of the day a glitch is just that - a glitch. It is not an indication of a true time as it has been obtained under dubious circumstances.

I don't even know most of these glitches anyway. I only know the Moa Therma and Sol 2 one, but I am aware that there are many more.

yeldar2097
4th June 2010, 10:44 PM
Well as far as the CP Rev shortcut is concerned, I consider it a shortcut and not a glitch because I (one) can get within 0.5 seconds of my best TT time by boosting in a different location.

If there were an alternative boost location that would allow for similar times to be achived then the glitches would be legitimate. But on MoaR for example there is only ONE way to gain an extra 3 seconds, as with Sol 2 and Seb.

Correct me if I'm wrong (leungbok) but as far as I'm aware kingheim held the TT record on Ubermall Reverse for quite a while even after the shortcut was demonstrated in a video. Yes the shortcut is faster, but only just :)

The French pioneers among us work hard to find shortcuts, BRs and boost locations, but none of these will gain you 1s per lap consistently (and they all more or less follow the track as opposed to skipping masses of it and landing awkwardly).

yeldar wins :nod

*Jedi mind trick MKII*

blackwiggle
4th June 2010, 11:28 PM
This is not really a new topic,it is still a real bone of contention. and has a lot of history behind it with all the wipeouts at this forum.

If you look at previous wipeouts, take 2097 for a well known example.
There are heaps of shortcuts if you boost at the right place, fair enough.
You have other areas that you can pass through the scenery and cut out huge chunks of tracks.
Now were the times gotten by cutting out areas of track used?
Were they legit?

You have the same situation happening again now, the only difference is that your don't really have a choice about a so called "Glitched" time being recorded for all to see, where with 2097 the time could be ignored.

Interesting that Ubermall reverse was brought up.
Everybody knows the shortcut by boosting up over the chicane, but not everybody can do it.
But again as an example, there is also an element of true glitch to that ubermall reverse shortcut.
Have a look at this photo I took ages ago of my AG craft passing through the side wall of the chicane.
Is it still a short cut or a glitch?
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq163/Turnipbob/Wipeout%20photos/th_wohd_20090302_142954jpg.jpg (http://s444.photobucket.com/albums/qq163/Turnipbob/Wipeout%20photos/?action=view&current=wohd_20090302_142954jpg.jpg)

amplificated
4th June 2010, 11:34 PM
I'd call that a glitch - you can do a legit boost there, but you're passing through something which you shouldn't be able to pass through. I wouldn't worry about it since it isn't going to save you any time.

yeldar2097
4th June 2010, 11:36 PM
Faster to go higher and land on/past the crest of the hill, no glitch :+

interesting about 2097 though...hmmmmmmmmm

JABBERJAW
4th June 2010, 11:52 PM
xl has lots of shortcuts, but none that cut off that much of the track length, some are longer due to bad landings. I think these shortcuts are awesome. I watched those fzero videos GX. Awful to see a pretty fun game made to not even play like a racing game. I haven't played HD enough to know more than the simplest of shortcuts like Chen reverse or amphesium rev, but if the shortcut does'nt cut off half the track, AND it is actually possible to do it evertime if you play enough, I would love them I think. It sounds like a couple of them cut off a significant amount of space.

QUESTION: on sebenco foward, is there a shortcut like this? I was wondering how people were getting 1:48, although I haven't played that track for a while.

blackwiggle
4th June 2010, 11:54 PM
See that's the problem.
I know it's a legit short cut and this glitch is a maybe 1 in a 100 occurrence while performing that short cut, but it's still a glitch, and my time recorded when it happened might still stand ?[doubt it].
That might not mean much in my case, but when the difference between 1st and 10th on the SL leader boards is fraction of one second, that makes a hell of a lot of difference.

You also have the fact that not only have these shortcuts/glitches been known about for well over a year [I'm talking about the ones others are just finding out about and are appearing on the SL top times], but they have until now been kept under wraps, and purposely not used.

They were reported to SL when the were originally found by an ex forum member, but they didn't do anything about them.

Amorbis
5th June 2010, 12:25 AM
It does really depend on whether something takes a second off a time, such as B-R-B or the Ubermall short cut, or if it simply makes your time 0 seconds. I'm more lenient on short cuts and the like, they've featured heavily in previous WipEout games, so why not HD? But the impossible times on the in-game leaderboards are unacceptable.

So long as a glitch or whatever requires some skill and isn't impossible to beat through real racing then it is reasonably OK to share, but methods should like B-R-B should always be up to debate.

yeldar2097
5th June 2010, 12:31 AM
QUESTION: on sebenco foward, is there a shortcut like this? I was wondering how people were getting 1:48, although I haven't played that track for a while.

No shortcuts that I'm aware of, TarotCardKiller is just a SebencoClimbKiller.

Firing off a boost and cutting some track is groovy, firing yourself into a wall or something similar is just silly and clearly not what was intended, or at least, less intended. Something like that.

blackwiggle
5th June 2010, 01:20 AM
There is a glitch available to be used on Sebenco forward.
It was one of the first ones found and reported to SL, you only have to look at the Phantom SL times for Sebenco forward to see that it has been used.

yeldar2097
5th June 2010, 01:35 AM
FFS have they gone to **** as well? -_-

leungbok
5th June 2010, 06:23 AM
There is a glitch available to be used on Sebenco forward.
It was one of the first ones found and reported to SL, you only have to look at the Phantom SL times for Sebenco forward to see that it has been used.
To be exact the glitch reported by darkdrium was for the reverse track ! ;)

someguy789
5th June 2010, 02:49 PM
I personly don't like them they make the time trail mode unfair and less about skill so I think they should be kept secret

JABBERJAW
5th June 2010, 03:28 PM
ok, saw that video of the 1:50. see what is going on now with the turbo beginning the lap, very nice. I also was trying to stay low in a coupl.e of places where I should not be.

I would have to say that as long as you do not respawn at an advantage to real racing, then the times have to be legit as stupid as those times may be. IF you can climb a wall, and that is in the game, it has to count. But if you go off a jump and respawn way up the track, that should never count. Maybe it is time to start keep your records on this site, or everyone to do so, that way they will exist even if those other sites go down (which they will eventually). Also, you can put in multiple records with the different ships.

il_mago_di_Doz
5th June 2010, 05:03 PM
Hi Satun, I'm glad to see that you've opened the thread I suggested :)

I'm personally not favorable to keep sectrets and stuff: I like to think of us more like a community, not only angry racers :P
I enjoy watching videos where some people do stunts like that. And that doesn't mean that I'm going to use them (it doesn't mean I'm able to do such things either!).
When I can play, I enjoy a lot Multiplayer races and Time Trials. I'm definetly not a speed lap player! :redface:
So the problem doesn't bother me that much, just like the bsb didn't (don't? ;)).

In conclusion: on one hand it's just a game, I love mostly compete online than doing incredible stunts; BUT on the other hand I know that there are some people here that are freaks (in the good way :)), and they enjoy SL a lot.
So what should we do? I don't know yet, I just hope that those glitches remain too hard to achieve in online races. :)
yours, Mago

amplificated
5th June 2010, 05:32 PM
I don't understand people saying "I enjoy watching people do these cool stunts so I'd like videos to be available for everyone, but hey, that doesn't mean I'd do them." So what, do you expect everyone else on YT to just ignore them even though they could shave seconds off their best times?

The leaderboards would become a cluster**** that'd be impossible to sort. And mago's right: it is just a game. About getting the best times. The whole reason I play WO is to get the best time I can - whether it's online or SL, I typically want the best time I can get. I'd probably still play, thanks to the gamerstats site, but it would still hurt my desire to get good times by a lot.

And jabberjaw, I don't understand most of what you said, but forcing a minority of players to manually sync their times on the rankings site is a second-best approach. It sucks that we even have to resort to an unofficial site, despite how good it may be. It will still never have anywhere near the number of players of the game signed up. Even some of the best pilots would miss it.

KGB
5th June 2010, 06:59 PM
I would ask again can someone list all these Glitches please. Don't need to say where, just which tracks.

Are the leader boards not screwed already. I don't take much notice of the tables these days. I still get a bigger thrill beating my online times than any SL/TT. Are people using these glitches in multiplayer?

tug_14
5th June 2010, 07:08 PM
Too many KGB :(
a friend has showed me , all glitch in a video ... and to be honest , this vid has scared me .
Ask to Sat. , he saw it to ...

DreamyElf
5th June 2010, 08:25 PM
unfortunately glitches exist in almost all games so unless a patch fixes them you cant say someone "hey you are cheating".
i totally agree with fair play but you can't control someone who will do everything to get a top ranking/score.
thats why i (and a naive fair player) will never get a top score, because i don't know these glitches (except the shortcut at sebenco)...
gamers cheated-cheat-and will always be cheating in order to win,that's a fact.
personally i respect anyone who has real skills and doesn't cheat ;)

p.s. play for fun and respect the other gamers :)

leungbok
5th June 2010, 10:46 PM
I'm personally not favorable to keep sectrets and stuff: I like to think of us more like a community, not only angry racers :P

That can be true for the members here, but lot of visitors are looking at the various threads on wozone, so i don't think that would be a good idea to show those glitches, even to name the tracks ! at least on "public" threads ! ;)
Let's remember what happened for anulpha fwd zone mode ! :brickwall

blackwiggle
5th June 2010, 10:57 PM
All these forward tracks are the ones with glitched times Sebenco, Sol 2, Amphesium, Talons Junction.
Expect Moa Therma to fall next.
They all happened around the same time 6 weeks ago.
AKFtuirf [at least he admits it's a glitched time on some records, by using a second account called AKFturif-glitch] & SansaKay-81 [ex zoner who we know under a different name]are the two main offenders.

Both are fast enough already not to have needed to use these glitches,[several seconds faster than next legit time], one has even responded to a video that has a link in this thread asking them not to use the glitch [which shows their true identity ;) ]
I haven't seen either of them playing HD/Fury in a while, ones been finding shortcuts in BLUR :rolleyes: according to his PSN avatar comment.

EDIT: we must of posted at the same time Leungbok, I don't think posting the name of the tracks is going to matter, all anybody has to do is look at the records and they stick out like a dogs bal...

JABBERJAW
5th June 2010, 11:03 PM
I didn't say for anyone to force them to put thier times here, just a recommendation. Obviously, Sony is not going to fix the problem, never will, so putting them here would help, and you could see peoples times with other ships as well. People who are really good like saturn or yeldar could spot a fake time a mile away, and ask for video proof. HELL, their times would be listed right on the official site, so people wouldn't be able to just make stuff up (well they could but people could see that their time is not on the official boards and wonder why

As for not understanding. IF you go off a jump, and off the track, and then respawn way ahead on a different part of the track to an advantage, that is a bug, and therefore should not count. Someone would not enter that time here, but it automatically goes to the official site with no hope of removing it. IF you can jump over a wall, or through something that is supposed to be solid, but is not, it should count. that is part of the game. As long as it is not a one time thing and it is sometimes solid, and sometimes it is not. if the glitch(bad programming) is always in that spot it needs to count as stupid as it may be.



@ blackwiggle: are those the only tracks with glitched times? are any reverse ones like this as well? is it just speed lap, time trial?

blackwiggle
6th June 2010, 01:45 AM
Just those tracks and SL only ,so far, I haven't checked the TT times, well I did , but that was a while ago, they might have glitched times on those tracks as well.
No reverse tracks have glitched times recorded.

amplificated
6th June 2010, 02:42 AM
@ 'jaw
If the leaderboards are a complete mess, how else would people share their times? They'd be forced to use an unofficial site.

And just because something can be replicated in the game, doesn't mean it should be legit - if you can hit an invisible object that launches you into the air so you can fly away through a solid building and shave seconds off your time every attempt, that is clearly unintentional and shouldn't be used.

And not all glitched times can be spotted from a mile away, even by a good player - what if some guy you've never heard of has a top 10 time? He could have a similar number of speed pads hit to other people, and be within a second of the top (for the purpose of example) legit time. But he glitched through a few sections and saved himself a heap of time, putting him in the top 10. Is that fair?

And then some other guy you've never heard of misses a few speed pads but still has a respectable time that's highly ranked with a legitimate method. How would you call that?

It ruins the leaderboards. The boards are a big part of the game - there's scores for every game mode except eliminator and zone battle. That's how you rate yourself. Sure it's fun to get the best time, but using a glitch is unfair on the vast majority of players who haven't found the obscure invisible barrier, reliable to hit or not, that allows you to wind up half the track ahead. Using methods set out by the game to get your time is the only fair way to go.

The official times should be able to be made without breaking the game mechanics.

WizardPlayHD
6th June 2010, 04:36 AM
You're all making very arguable points. I've taken the time to review this thread and I've agreed with those who think we should just shrug if off, and play for the fun of it, not the precision of global records affected by glitches (some skillful and legit, some ridiculous and unfair).

As mentioned, we KNOW who the best players are. They've documented via video that they're truely not cheaters, highly talented, and tear-jerkingly devoted to this beautiful game.

If you're trying to prove yourself as a passionate player like I am (trying...lol) prove it! ;)

blackwiggle
6th June 2010, 08:25 AM
It isn't about proving anything, the two who have used the glitches are already up in the top 10 anyway, and a lot of the barrel roll locations and amazing short cuts you see were found by one of these people.

It more like a situation where a group of highly talented pilots have taken an age to paint a wall, getting all the hard to get at bits, then they return a month later and a two of the people who helped paint it have been naughty and scrawled graffiti all over it, irritating the others.

By their actions after the event I'm getting the impression that they are both regretting do it, which if they feel like that, sort of answers the question that is the topic of the thread.

leungbok
6th June 2010, 09:24 AM
Or maybe one of both who used to be very respected, decided to use all means necessary to reach top score without saying or showing how he was doing those awesome times (except a video of moa therma reverse). And maybe some speedlapers started to have some doubts about his records and (unfortunately) began to find some strange lines on several tracks and were convinced (even sure) that the guy used that lines to reach his top scores (even if he managed to hide his method by slowing down a little before passing the final line). Talon and amphiseum forward were too obvious for speedlapers that really know the track, so a second guy, one of those that showed almost all of the tricks for SL/TT decided to reveal what an impostor was the first guy, because several people (average pilots on the 1st guy psn's friendlist) started to reach top scores on sol2 speedlap.
Some people (as me) already tried to talk about those problems (for example Darkdrium about the sebenco reverse's glitch or few posts in the "speedlap challenge" thread) but it didn't seems to interest lot of zoners unfortunately (less than the bsb case :roll: even if with bsb, w5lx or philippe1970 could never reached any top 10 on any track).
The most pathetic thing about that, is the fact that the first guy is very skilled and didn't needed all that **** ! Result now : he's no more respected by some of the top speedlapers who knows about his "methods" :(

blackwiggle
6th June 2010, 11:46 AM
I have just been having a PSN conversation with one of them, and he explained what the situation was and the turn of events that led up to what we have happening now.
He has always been honest about it anyway, he never tried to hide it.:+
Fair enough, I see that HE did it only to show up the person who was, and always has been the main culprit, ARFurtif.

He has also told me about the other 5 tracks that have glitches.:-
So now we have a total of 10. :turd
6 forward & 4 reverse, and no, I'm not going to reveal the rest of them, I want to view the private videos first to see what they entail and just how bad things have got. :brickwall

JABBERJAW
6th June 2010, 02:37 PM
OK, here goes. I like shortcuts for sure, ones like in XL where you cannot cut off half the track. I would not like these in HD if you could pass through walls. I though amphesium chen reverse tracks have very cool shortcuts. Those are the kind I like. I like the sol2 pirhapac (Ithink) video of him jumping off the track and landing further down using barrel roll boosts for his speed, awesome stuff, and difficult. I like the little ramps on the side walls that get you in the air to go further, anything like that. I don't even mind jumping using a turbo hitting a flat section up higher, and getting a little more distance, that is fine too. I do not like half the track jumps though if you could go off track and use massive glitches in the game physics.
of note though, it is hard to say whether or not I think something is a cheat without seeing it.

"@ 'jaw
If the leaderboards are a complete mess, how else would people share their times? They'd be forced to use an unofficial site. ".

I think people should use the unofficial site due to these issues. Times are better regulated here by far (they are not regulated at all on the official site). Also, this site has a better chance of surviving than the official site over time.

"And just because something can be replicated in the game, doesn't mean it should be legit - if you can hit an invisible object that launches you into the air so you can fly away through a solid building and shave seconds off your time every attempt, that is clearly unintentional and shouldn't be used."

Yes, but if it is in the game it needs to be allowed. I hate invisible walls as well, but they have been programmed into the game, to the unfortunate result of this anomolay. ON the Unofficial site this can be regulated. Joe schmo gets a record time on amphesium, but is 10 seconds behind on every other track. Someone like saturn or yeldar notice this anomoly, ask how he did it, or for him to show a video of a somewhat similar time. This has happened here before, but not often. ON this site, if something stupid like a half the track jump is discovered, it can be dissallowed on the boards, and regulated quite easily. On the OFFICIAL SITE noone regulates it.

"And not all glitched times can be spotted from a mile away, even by a good player - what if some guy you've never heard of has a top 10 time? He could have a similar number of speed pads hit to other people, and be within a second of the top (for the purpose of example) legit time. But he glitched through a few sections and saved himself a heap of time, putting him in the top 10. Is that fair?"
"And then some other guy you've never heard of misses a few speed pads but still has a respectable time that's highly ranked with a legitimate method. How would you call that?"


If the times are on this site, he can be asked for proof through a video of a similar run


"It ruins the leaderboards. The boards are a big part of the game - there's scores for every game mode except eliminator and zone battle. That's how you rate yourself. Sure it's fun to get the best time, but using a glitch is unfair on the vast majority of players who haven't found the obscure invisible barrier, reliable to hit or not, that allows you to wind up half the track ahead. Using methods set out by the game to get your time is the only fair way to go.

The official times should be able to be made without breaking the game mechanics."

Invisible barriers, agreed. However, with an official board that will not do anything about it, what are you going to do. The unnofficial board you can do something about it. you would just need to be willing to put your times there like people have done for the last 10 years. Yes, there would be less times, but they would in the end, be legit times, and the people who cared about the game to continue to play it, would keep putting in times.

ONce again, I have never seen the invisible barrier thing. It sounds terrible by the sounds of it and would result in who gets the turbo more wins the race if you use it in multiplayer.

Doesn't seem like there is a fix for this unless people use the unnofficial board.

ProblemSolver
6th June 2010, 03:35 PM
... Let's remember what happened for anulpha fwd zone mode ! :brickwall
The reason I put that up was to exert pressure on the developers to fix
the issue in time, since updates were still coming. Without the mentioned
thread they would had never fixed it.

As long as the problem can be fixed, put it up. Otherwise have fun with
whatever you got.

leungbok
6th June 2010, 03:58 PM
I don't talk about you, mate, i talk about the guys that revealed the zone glitch on video, evil was done before you talked about it here (with some good results as the devs reacted on it) ! ;)

ProblemSolver
6th June 2010, 09:53 PM
I don't talk about you, mate ...
Same, more or less. :nod

I just wanted to point out why the thread was made. Some guys from the
outside (xD) may thing it wasn't a good idea to put it up, emphasizing the
glitch even further, which it did to some degree. But there came the patch.

I would never make a glitch public if it would spoil a well sounded party
nor would I use it on my own to gain a second or something. Personally,
I love real results. If I don't get a real result, I'm wasting my time.

blackwiggle
6th June 2010, 10:59 PM
The "Problem" glitches that we should be concerned about becoming known to all, and thus opening the flood gates to a "Zone Zeus glitch" type proportions [that got to 1 in 10 recorded times in the top 1000 before SL fixed the glitch, I know, I counted them :mr-t] are the ones where there is a obvious couple of seconds discrepancy between the No1 glitched time, and a typical Yelder/Saturn/ Piraphaic/Leungbok top times.

These are the ones that really stick out.
All SL -Phantom- forward, Sol2, Sebenco, Amphesium & Talons Junction.

The other 6 are known about, but have no times recorded on the leader boards because the persons doing them have, as Leungbok has said previously, slowed down before the finish.
Which I would have to applaud their resolve as they obviously don't want to see the boards messed up any further either. :+ :clap

JABBERJAW
7th June 2010, 02:08 AM
It looks like they cannot be done by accident very easily then, that is good

Connavar
8th June 2010, 09:42 AM
Keep them secret for the greater good.
If it's something like going through walls and ceiling, where you also need some
luck to pull it off, then it's just not fun, I mean you even see graphical glitches
so it's really ugly and really not the way the game was meant to be played.

Normal shortcuts are fine.

il_mago_di_Doz
8th June 2010, 12:17 PM
The fact is: wich ones are glitches and wich aren't?
The one in moa rev can be executed both passing or not through the ceiling for example. Is that a glitch when you do and a shortcut when you don't?

yeldar2097
8th June 2010, 12:27 PM
I see it as a glitch either way even though it is possible to do 8/10 times if you actually try to do it, simply because there is no alternative boost location to gain anywhere near as much time (about 3 seconds per lap o_O) as the glitch gives you.

Keep them secret, keep them safe.

lunar
8th June 2010, 01:39 PM
Looks like a set of irreconcilable problems, arguments and dilemmas that have been fully explored in this thread and thousands of old ones, and there`s no need for me to do the same. The consensus not to advertise the glitches seems sensible, though fairly academic. It would be great to have an "unbreakable" game, but that is probably just a dream and perhaps not even needed. Real competion can and will still happen between like minded, trusted friends and pilots who value fair competition more than anything else - same as it always has, so it`s not a terrible problem. Official scoreboards tend to suck, but wipeoutzone wipers always find a way to race fairly.

leungbok
8th June 2010, 06:20 PM
Hmmm, what do you think mates, of the speedlap records in venom class on amphiseum and talon fwd ?
Myself i'm suspicious ;)
That's a reason for not releasing glitche's videos IMO, no ?

KGB
8th June 2010, 09:41 PM
Just because I managed to get to No 20 doesn't mean I cheated ;):D. Yeah, it's a bit sad, 8 pads and nearly 1.5 seconds ahead :-

JFthebestJan
9th June 2010, 12:56 PM
that records re glitched, but i don't believe the players did it on purpose. i really think it has something to do with online ZB-mode.

if a record is made with a fury-ship, there's always the possibility of the "ZB-glitched-thing" (look sebenco fwd SL venom, "dirtykecks" time with triakis fury 3 SP), but a record made with a hd-ship couldn't be developed from the "ZB-glitched-thing". it could be a "real" glitched time.

brainbeat
11th June 2010, 12:07 AM
theres 1 on tjr too, i have 2 glitched times on sl myself, flash and rapier. I thought was ok at time but regreted next day.

shapealot
11th June 2010, 02:29 PM
thats forgivable mate you were open and honest about your methods you even made a vid of it

i havnt posted on this yet so heres my 2 cents ive seen the glitch vid and i dont think these glitches should be shared with the "public" they ARE game breakers for sure not shortcuts. most if not all of us agree we need to keep the leaderboards as free as possible from glitched times it just looks ugly. studio liverpool wont be fixing these problems so i think its up to us as a community to keep these things secret, its in our best interests

Rezatron
11th June 2010, 03:10 PM
theres 1 on tjr too, i have 2 glitched times on sl myself, flash and rapier. I thought was ok at time but regreted next day.

I still have that video (not sure if you kept it). I won't upload it anywhere publicly but if someone is curious I can send a link via PM.

F.E.I.S.A.R
25th November 2010, 09:28 AM
Recors are supposed to be proof that you are the best pilot,not the best cheater. I'd rather not have a glitched record as I have ethics.

icarasDragon
25th November 2010, 09:57 AM
I hate it how some people can get AMAZING times, and no matter how hard you try you cannot beat it, until you find it's a Shortcut, it messes with the Leaderboards :|

yeldar2097
25th November 2010, 06:05 PM
That's what Connavar's site is for :) (wipeout.gamerstats.net)

Glitch free winnage

F.E.I.S.A.R
27th November 2010, 05:46 AM
@Yeldar:I can't access it. I keep getting a "Page cannot be displayed" error.And I use the preloaded Windows 7 Internet Browser.IE8.
So far the only legal shortcuts I've known of are Chenghou Reverse after the Mag-Strip Ramp,The Amphiseum Reverse shortcut and the Ubermall Forward Nose up speed pad shortdut at the start of the lap.

CPROSICK
22nd January 2011, 11:16 PM
just for fun... :clap

About records, they should be dictated by criteria (speed class, ship etc) AND if shortcut were used perhaps? Dunno..:brickwall

Hey, has anyone skipped on side of SOL2 to the other?!:bat
~C

Temet
23rd January 2011, 03:28 PM
Hey, has anyone skipped on side of SOL2 to the other?!:bat

Maybe :g