Excuses for losing & 1st place "bonuses"

[OBH]

Lately ive had a few people say that they believe -

A) since fury's come out the player in first is given "better weapons" as such, and
B) That Higher ranked players recieve a "boost".....

Here are the quotes, im interested in what you think.




just a short impression why i think online competition is odd:

just assume for a short moment that i'm
right: a good pilot get's:
- more speed
- the right weapon just in time
- HEAVIER impact of these weapons
- more turbos
- ramming priority

this leaves only 2 conclusions:
- competition against a good player is odd, u don't have a chance - you have to become a good player to compete

you said it's an excuse 4 loosing and i say: i can handle loosing, otherwise i would quit WO playing.

I can turn it other way round:
when i play a weaker player:
- i allways get a missile when he manages to overtake me
- i overlap him without using br's,
he br's like hell and has perfect laps
- i can slow him down to halt, even
with a light MG salve
- i can fall off 2 times, drive like drunk
and still win
- i get more turbos when i'm behind
- i even get 5 quakes or what it takes
to stop him
This is fact. I'm experiencing it every day.

Since this is not programmed fair (don't blame me - blame SL), online competition is odd when the system regards one player "up" and the other "down".

I know how to get "up" in WO.

I don't mean online rank. It's rubbish. I mean "up" regarding the details i mentioned above.

Of course like u and others, i can keep a good secret. It works. I'm not a better pilot than i was 12 weeks ago, but my "up" improved massively. Still not enough 2 compete top 20 :-))))) Still i don't know if i'd invest the time for that. There's a thing called life...

Offline competition is fair, everyone has the same chances. this is why i can manage top 100 times at every track.

The best at last: you are "up", so you don't have to worry how to get there. Go Osama !

Kind regards,
brummpahh



"But I heard that with Fury it's much easier to do amazing times because you can receive tons of turbos like 7-8, especially if you're in front"

"It's true, look at some of hellfire videos, when he's in front, he receives sometimes 5-6-7 turbos!! Which I had almost never seen before, and that's not in just 1 race. It's not with Fury ships, it's just since Fury is out."


Id like to take the time to say theres nothing personal against either of these two blokes :) Both sound, friendly, polite and fast players who i have a lot of time for, and they are not the only 2 who have expressed such opinions, just the only ones available for me to quote as supposed to psn pm's.

In a nutshell i think that -
1) "Higher ranked" players recieving bonus' as such is just utterly ridiculous, and...
2) Before FURY came out many turbos in a single race was hardly unheard of. Not regular by any means, but it DEFFINITELY isnt anything new.

I needed to make this thread as its just tipped my annoyance overboard really, there are so many people who believe that weapon races are either a joke / winners based purely on luck / not enjoyable / unfair / no skill etc, etc, etc. Its just starting to really do my nut in.

If you dont like it, go play Gran Turismo :)

Im really interested in what you guys believe to be true. Besides FURY tracks havining a much smaller area in which you need to hit to pick up weapons and hit speed pads, i dont think theres any huge difference to anything else.

If im well wide of the mark, please feel free to enlighten me :)
I look forward to you replies!

[kaori]

Once more time, a newbie who can be world champion of WipEout if... and if... and if...
Don't waste your time with them.

[leungbok]

That's my team-mate !! :D:rock

[blackwiggle]

It's either a famine or a feast with the turbos.

I must admit that I have found that occasionally,when you do get a run of turbos they are 1 or 2 more than pre FURY.
I think my previous best EVER run on turbos pre Fury was 4 ,since FURY I've had more than a few races where I've had at least 6.:eek

But then again I've gone through a 8 race tournament and not had one.:mad:

Don't think the weapons favor anybody,unless you consider picking up just mines & bombs while out in front favoritism.

Something wacky is going on.

The old swapped craft handling made a reappearance online earlier tonight,had my usual AG but it was oversteering like a zone craft,I messaged one person who I was racing against and they said the same happened to them,the game must of loaded zone battle handling to a normal race.:dizzy

Anyway,all these things happen occasionally ,but NOT ALL the time as some might think .

My 2 cents

Checking your online time immediately after you finish a race to see if you beat a PB has become a bit of a joke,tried checking one tonight and all I got was 446,587th [didn't beat your 446,580th place though Osama ;) ]

[Kurlija]

What I've experienced is that I often seem to get the same pick-ups at the same places in a race.

It's not annoying, just a bit weird to get a shield on every lap at the same place.

[Asayyeah]

From my mini experience i can say the multiple turbo appearance when you are in front really started with Pure, same with Pulse , also in HD and now in fury. but like BW said it's not all the time happening but still enough happening to make it noticeable. What shall we think about that : is it unfair or fair ? It's a detail among others that needs to be taken in consideration but not in a drama way, it's part of the game and for me it's ok, not a big deal.
about favored weapons for highly ranked pilot that's just plain bull s h i t


if ...and if ...and if ...
that reminds a recent post from me about some hypothetical family evolution :D

[Amorbis]

I don't intend to start any arguing but I personally don't think your position means anything in a race in terms of pick-ups. This isn't Mario Kart with the elastic band item system, WipEout is random. I have races with no boosts and races with 5 boosts, plus everything in between.

The reason I'm losing is because I'm not doing well, pick-ups do influence whether you win or not naturally. Your pick-up effectiveness is only as good as you are really, unless you get 10 boosts in a race. :lol

[JaLK]

I always seem to get things I don't want when I'm first like missiles, rockets and cannons. Although it has happened once or twice were I get turbos at the same spot 4 laps in a row right before the track splits in Ubermall.

It must be a matter of someone being luckier than someonce else. At least were the pickups are concerned.

[abukii]

Hmmm...To be honest, I have experienced what the Pm'ers have stated, but I dont think its a big deal. I believe it just "seems" like the lead place is getting a bit more boost. The only other thing I can think of, is that later or recent patches conflict or "glitch" the weapon randomiser.

[Darkdrium777]

Luck.

[OBH]

I just dont understand the fuss.
Im joining more & more rooms where i get a pm saying "boosts only please". no weapons, boosts only, and your all icaras? wheres the fun in that?

i promptly leave.

[SaturnReturn]

If Hellfire does get lots of boosts, it's just because of the way he races. Based on his videos from out match the other day, he absorbs virtually everything instantly if he doesn't see a good chance to use it. He didn't seem to hang onto weapons much. So if you absorb absorb absorb, then you're more likely to get boosts. This is easier to do if you're in front because you're unlikely to have to save rockets to shoot out mines or bombs etc, or at least not as much. It's just a way of racing. If you get out in front well, you can afford to absorb until you get boosts. That's all IMO. Also, Hellfire posts videos of his races, so if he does get the occasional race with lots of boosts, we can all see it, whereas we can't with others.

I do think it's a lot based on luck and a lot on lag - more so than it should be. I don't think there is any difference between players or ranks and the weapons the game gives.

[boo4ever]

I would love to experience the jackpot of boosts. Whenever I get out in front, a giant bullseye usually appears on the back of the harimau. And more often than not, I can't buy a shield.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

"Somebody's beating me, so there must be something unfair going on!!?!?!"
:lol:lol:lol
Same old story...

ps, I think Saturn nailed it^^ - I agree totally. Same applies to Pulse and Pure.

[Kyonshi]

The extrapolations made by brummpahh are somehow pushed too much to the extreme. I don't think there is some kind of favoritism towards hi-ranked players and top pilots. All is a matter of racing lines and pick-up management regarding their usefulness and strategic usage.

BUT, as JaLK stated earlier, i do also confess and confirm that yes, when you're first, you bizarrely pick up more shot weapons than anything else. I've accumulated thousands of hours of play, and what was a simple coincidence to me now appears to be founded impressions, having experienced this many times myslef. Sure, pick-ups appearance and based on randomized respawns. In theory. Now it seems to me that there's something "calculated" depending on your position, like to give a chance to your pursuers so they can still have a good run... So, either im having bad luck all the time, which can't always be, or i'm passing on weapon pads at a precise frequency so i grab shot weapons all the time, which is ridiculous, taking in account that the game's pick-ups are random.

That's just an observation i made playing WOHD online since that long. That's no excuse to justify a defeat. If i lose, it's because i played like a ****. In the end, maybe im completely wrong. But witnessing this issue many times now, its legitimate to question how the game's functioning, without falling in paranoia of course :)

[Koleax]

I got the boost jackpot in AP Flash a couple days ago. I started to get a little freaked in a now don't screw up kind of way. When you have that many boosts, you end up using them in places you never expected, and that can really throw you off. The warping visual effect throws me off more than anything. I really don't like it.

I ended up somewhere in the top 50, which I thought was pretty decent, given so many people know AP's BRs ex Zico, but then Rezatron beat me the next day. I told him well done and it took a lot not to follow that with, "you lucky bastard." :)

[Rezatron]

You can turn off the hud effects in the game options.

Getting a great time on MP AP is just a matter of getting turbos before the first turn (BR chains) and before the bridge (BR onto or off of the bridge). I have the #1 or #2 MP Rapier time on AP which was done with 6 or 7 turbos (with FEISAR hehe, love seeing my FEISAR times in a sea of Icaras).

[Connavar]

My comment was not an excuse for losing, it was just to say that "great" times
now are much easier to achieve now than in the past, I had been playing WOHD
for almost a year (before Fury) and maybe I had 2-3 races with 5 turbos when
I was in front, usually I would receive mines/bombs/whatever, however right
now I see more turbos.

This was a response to OBH raving about his vineta record :)

We know there is a probability to get a certain item, however the probability
function is not flat, I'm sure you have more chances to get specific items under
specific conditions, for example I'm 100% sure you have a lot more chance to
get a shield after you hear "Quake", than any other item.

Recently I also saw reach-big7 (a fantastic player) doing world-record like times
race after race, and trust me, those times are not possible without many turbos
So yeah 1 race sure, but 2-3-4 etc races like this ... this wasn't possible in
the past. (comment about Hellfire is about the luck factor, nothing to do with
his gameplay)

[Koleax]

You can turn off the hud effects in the game options.
That's only for the HUD, though. The boosts and turbos will still warp the outer edges of the screen and make the center appear further away. That's what I don't care for. I'd like my sense of proportion to be uninterrupted.

I'm 100% sure you have a lot more chance to
get a shield after you hear "Quake", than any other item.
Garbage. I feel like I have a very little chance, something approaching 1 out of 8.

I would attribute players getting faster and faster MP times to their getting better at MP. In any case I'm even more puzzled why my Venom Moa MP time is so unbelievable, since it was post-Fury.

[DISRUPTOR]

@Brmmphahh.

Prove your theory. Create a new Psn I.D, race with it and video the difference in performance between your regular ID and new ID.

Saying what you are saying without proof is that all good pilots are not really any good apart from the benifits they get from the online handicap system you are talking about. Not really a friend making topic around here without some hard proof.

[SaturnReturn]

for example I'm 100% sure you have a lot more chance to
get a shield after you hear "Quake", than any other item.

I can't deny that I do remember many occasions where I would get a shield just after hearing quake. It's always just too late though, i.e. just after I get hit, then I get the shield. But I'm not sure if it's more likely or more memorable.

[Darkdrium777]

Luck + Psychologic Effect.

As someone who's spent a great deal of time online side shifting between weapon pads, items you get are perfectly random while following the probability laws coded into the game (Quake is rarer than Rockets for example.)

What this whole discussion is based on is this: "I remember that..."
Yes, you remember because this is a particularly striking moment that you have noted many times during the many hours you have played the game.
Allow me to explain: you noted many times that while in first place, you get a lot of turbos. Why do you note that? Because turbos are essential in gaining an increased lead, so each turbo you pick up you make a mental note of. Those you get while in fourth place you do not, because they are used for catch up, and you're still focused on catching up more than timing your turbo correctly for an eventual shortcut.
I don't remember what weapons I pick up in eight place, but I do for when I am in first place. It's natural, but I am fairly certain that if we were to examine all instants of a race for each participant, we would find that weapon distribution is totally random. :)

[yeldar2097]

I'm with DD777. If I watch the mp vids that I made pre-fury, and the ones that I have made post-fury, I can see that turbo disptribution is the same. You can have a race where you are in front and you get 8 turbos or 0 turbos or something in between. Same with other weapons. Sometimes you will get pretty much nothing but shields/mines/whatever when in first/last place but these weapon spam races aren't more likely with any single weapon i don't think...we all know that sometimes there are races where there are about 400 quakes. and 'cambodia' exists for a reason ;)


those times are not possible without many turbos
So yeah 1 race sure, but 2-3-4 etc races like this ... this wasn't possible in
the past.

it happens. sometimes you are on a good run and nobody shoots you for a few races, we all get that sometimes. it's luck of the draw really.
except for certain tracks where the MP time nearly matches the TT WR, even if you only get 2-3 boosts it's not that hard to get a top 10 time -If you look at the Avalon records, you can see that most of the no weps records are only a few secs slower (if that) than the official mp records. If you throw in a boost or two + as many BRs as you want you can see that getting close to the WR shouldn't be that hard.

/two cents

[Connavar]

I know about psychology factor, however I still disagree with you DD777,
the game very often gives you a shield after you hear the quake, and yes it's
often too late (but you still get a useless shield). How many times does it give
you a gun or rockets instead? It's not just that I remember, it's so striking that
now whenever I hear a quake, if a pad is nearby, I know I have a good chance
to shield me from it.

About turbos, it looks like everyone just gets more turbos than usual, however
I can't prove it yet, I guess one way to show it would be to analyze videos
from before and from now, and do some stats.

I think we should ask some top wise players like Wotan and ProblemSolver what
they think about it.

[yeldar2097]

I can try do some stats if you want, i have about 150 videos pre-fury and 50<x<75 videos post-fury :)
is that enough for a start do you reckon?

[Connavar]

even if you only get 2-3 boosts it's not that hard to get a top 10 time -If you look at the Avalon records, you can see that most of the no weps records are only a few secs slower (if that) than the official mp records. If you throw in a boost or two + as many BRs as you want you can see that getting close to the WR shouldn't be that hard.
/two cents
I know that 2-3 turbos can make you enter the top 10 if the race is perfect,
which is very possible with his skills (reach-big7), however the times were
about those: 2.01.xx on chenghou (finished this one at 2.02 behind him with
several turbos too), then 1.42.xx on sol2, then a 1.43.xx or 1.44.xx on sol2R,
those 3 races in a row with 2 others with equally good time that I forgot.

All this in a row, sure maybe was luck, but to see 3-4 WR like times in a row
... raised a bit my suspicions, but I was still doubting at this time, then I
talked to other people (without mentioning anything), and they also told me
about their own suspicions (about turbos), which confirmed mine ...

Chenghou ok you can BR a lot but sol2 - sol2R, I'm sure you need a lot of
turbos, there aren't so many spots where you can BR, however a boost
directly gives you -1 second.

Also I remember I quaked him on chenghou, I remember because I was like
"damn, maybe he could have gone under 2.00.00"

[KGB]

even if you only get 2-3 boosts it's not that hard to get a top 10 time

Not the way most of us play :D

I personally don't believe you get any different weapons dependent on where you at in the pack. I've had 6 boosts at the back and front of a race. On hearing 'Quake' I usually make a dash for a weapon pad only to find that it's mines or bombs, if I was getting shields it would be great. I was in a race a while ago at the front and got hit by 4 quakes, not once did I get a shield before I got hit, if it were a common thing surely I would of received at least one.

Reachbig is one of a handful of players who can put WR times in all the time, It may seem like they are getting lots of boosts but I think their line is so good that they can post quicker times than the majority here without a lot of help from favorable weapons.

[OBH]

@ Connavar
Not strictly true about sol2 rev, the entire first half ot the lap is so dependant on good racing lines, not saying turbos dont help, but my top 10 time from what i rember used only 3. Plus Luxoflux's TT WR is almost 2 seconds faster than mine despite my 5 perfect laps.

Also 2.01 on CP is also possible with maybe as little as 2 boosts. He could have also made your quake redundant by boosting on impact.

As for the discussion on shields, funny how experiences differ - i keep my shields for a corner or 2 so often have one BEFORE the inevitable "quake" or "missile" warning. Is the game anticipating a quake before its even been picked up? Or just good tactical racing?

[Connavar]

The question is not about his skill, he's probably the best player at the moment,
it's about timing ... don't you think it's a bit strange that people have been
fighting againt world records for 10 months, barely approaching or beating them,
and now that Fury's out, suddently everyone is beating them easily?
Whilst at the same time, several top players are noticing how easier it is to get
a better time just because they seem to be getting more turbos?
And don't tell me it's because of the Fury ships please :)
---

... Also 2.01 on CP is also possible with maybe as little as 2 boosts. He could have also made your quake redundant by boosting on impact.
No, because I also did a nice race, and after I quaked him, I caught up, was
just behind him, so he clearly lost time, and then a bit later he went away.

[OBH]

And don't tell me it's because of the Fury ships please :)

why not? harimau furys taking over many top 10 places.

the only long standing mp record i remember was my ap rev for over 6 months (no doubt theres been more :)), since then the early boost-br tactic has been discovered and it was beaten. the same applies to ap, vk, vk rev, cp, cp rev, ub rev, probably many more tracks too. there are more brs now that most ship shields can handle. hitting them all lap after lap is a real challenge.

add to the mix the new fury ship improved stats, and id say yes i do believe they are a factor.

[Connavar]

Well in my previous example, rb7 did everything with AG-systems from HD :)
I think people are picking Harimau+ or other just because the stats look better,
but in reality, it doesn't do that much difference, let's say if everything else
remains the same (piloting skills, BR ability, items luck) => 0.30 sec at best.

[OBH]

wow we have some real differences in opinon :) i think harimau+ is far, far better than its predecessor, the extra thrust is massively helpful. a craft doesnt go from barely scrapping top 10 times to a firm contender soley due to lucky items.

im not saying hd crafts dont cut it, the hd ags was a world beater before fury, and wont just drop off its perch. but if reach-big7 hasnt bothered with fury crafts its no wonder hes still one of the best going.

i just dont see this conspiracy theory about extra boosts in 1st as any different to how it was in HD, ive spent time out in front, sometimes 6 boosts a race, sometimes not 1 for 6 races.

[Connavar]

I wasn't comparing Harimau vs Harimau+!
I was talking about Fury ships in general, what I meant, I thought was obvious,
was: take your favorite HD ship and race, now take your favorite Fury ship
(note when I say favorite, I mean: take the one allowing you to do the fastest
times, because some people liked Harimau before just for the looks), and now
do the exact same race under the exact same conditions, normally you'll go
0.05 sec faster at best, every lap, I mean I see it when I do speed laps even.

[OBH]

i know you werent comparing harimau specifically :) was just saying its an example where, at least in my opinion, of one fury ship being far better than its HD counterpart. It just is.

though we're veering off topic now xD

[Amorbis]

Based on the videos I took almost one year ago of HD 1.10 (or whatever the number was in December) the number of boosts is just as evenly distributed today as it was back then. At least that's how it feels for me.

[Connavar]

Yeah, without you noticing, you agreed that some Fury ships are better while
some are worse, hence compensating and ruling the Fury ships "bonus" out of
the equation :D

To be honest, I don't even know why you made such a thread to begin with,
without any concrete facts/proof, you're not going to change ppl minds, I feel,
personally, that there is a noticeable increase of turbos, on average, per race,
now you might beg to differ, but other players have noticed it too, that's why
I feel more confident about it.

However we can agree that at some time, the online game was sooo bad that
it was near impossible doing perfect races, it was when the 1.3 patch was out,
since BRs were not working half of the time, and there were freezings too,
so now that everything has been fixed, it's now possible to do clean races.
---

Based on the videos I took almost one year ago of HD 1.10 (or whatever the number was in December) the number of boosts is just as evenly distributed today as it was back then. At least that's how it feels for me.
Ok thanks, I don't even have the motivation nor the time to do it, but if
someone could do stats on all the multiplayer videos released so far, we would
have a clearer picture of what's going on, maybe I'm just imagining things,
and maybe not :)

[OBH]

i agreed without noticing? no need to put words in my mouth my friend :)

and as you mentioned it, im not trying to change minds, i was interested in peoples opinions whos matter...... all of yours :)

if your more confident in your opunion, excellent!! but so am i as only kyonshi & blackwiggle agree with you compared to amorbis, yeldar, saturn, d7, kgb, kaori, leungbok, koleax & asayyeah all see no difference. :beer

[oolproo]

my two cents: don't know if others sense this, but if someone fires from behind, usually a missile, then, as I hit a weapon pad, and if I activate the weapon before knowing what it is, I seem with unusual regularity to be awarded a shield.

one sentence, two cents....

[DISRUPTOR]

I also find that too. Seems more than coincidence.

[Connavar]

osama: there are no more vista pads, not for me anyway, so this automatically
means more items and more turbos, agreed? :)

Anyway this is irrelevant, who really cares about multiplayer times anyway?
You need to be good + be super lucky, to score a great time;

I value TT records 100x more than MP records, because they only involve skill,
and if someone is #1 it's because he played better, not because he received
an extra turbo.

I'm going to leave the thread now, I didn't want to enter it but you had
mentioned my name + implied that I was a bad loser, while all I said was that it
was easier to score fast times than in the past (more turbos), and had nothing
to do with losing a race or not.

[KGB]

I really wish people would stop saying the MP times mean nothing, if it was that easy to get a good time they would be faster than TT, they're not.

[leungbok]

Anyway this is irrelevant, who really cares about multiplayer times anyway?

Those who can't reach top ranks on TT/sl/zone, i suppose.
Not the case for Obh, however.

I totally understand that it's fun to have a multiplayer record, but it's false to believe that it's because the owner is the world best pilot.

Off course a great pilot will have more opportunities to reach top ranks on mp leaderboard.

I agree with Connavar and IMO the best pilots are the high ranked ones on TT/sl/zone.

[Task]

I'm surprised that there's any surprise about the best race times being beaten. The game is inherently all about practice. The longer it's been out, the more practice all the pilots have, the more likely it is that the best times will be beaten. Track knowledge is a key factor as well, knowing where the pads are and using them. The last thing I'd assume is that there's some malicious code in the game that changes pickup probabilities based on the phase of the moon and the colour of your socks. Expect the best times to be beaten, always. Once the games been out for 5 or 10 years, sure, then I might expect the top times to become static.

[Aeroracer]

i agree with conavar about TT being more accurate to skill than MP..i have got really good times in sme MP i no way deserved..for better than my skill only cos i got way too many turbos and auto pilots...with TT and SL its even playing field for all..no luck only skill..

Mp times are still good but not too accurate when comparing skills of players.:nod

[stinkleroy]

I really wish people would stop saying the MP times mean nothing, if it was that easy to get a good time they would be faster than TT, they're not.

Agreed. And what about people like myself, who aren't into shortcuts or insane amounts of BR's? I love to stay on the track and work my lines...thats the fun of wipeout for me, so I understand I'll never be truly competitive but my MP times were (probably not now as I haven't really played in months) in the top 50/100. I was proud of that!! ;)

[leungbok]

And you can. Multiplayer races needs skills too : reflexes to avoid weapon's shots, good lines, requires precision to hit opponents, a good tactical sense... and also an amount of luck ;)

[ProblemSolver]

@OBH: Just a question; do you have brummpahh's permission to quote his
entire PN? ;)


... We know there is a probability to get a certain item, however the probability
function is not flat, I'm sure you have more chances to get specific items under
specific conditions, for example I'm 100% sure you have a lot more chance to
get a shield after you hear "Quake", than any other item. ...

a few weeks ago ...

... I'm currently looking into whether there is also a shield-pickup / quake
relation. It seems that when a quake is incoming the first or second item pad
is, more likely, a shield. ...
This.


... About turbos, it looks like everyone just gets more turbos than usual, however
I can't prove it yet,....

Well, without having read any discussion about it, I also recognized a
somewhat higher boost distribution. Last week I said to myself; hmm ...
seems like the game gives someone the possibility to go for a new world
record if certain conditions are met. Within the last few weeks I had races
where boosts were coming like crazy esp. when being in the lead. And I had
a similar situation on VK, lately. I got two boosts within the first lap and I
knew somehow that I got 'selected', i.e. I knew that I would now get a lot of
boosts, which was actually the case. They were coming one after another.
Despite I messed up the given run it was enough for rank 5! And it could
had been about 1.5 seconds faster, which would had been rank 1 by a long
way. Have I become that good (within just a few weeks playing online) to
get rank 5 on a track which is raced on for over a year?
Additionally, my best-lap (19.1x) for the record in question is the worst one
from all other top10 best-lap times (~18.5x). So either I got two or three
boosts more than any other one got ever before or I'm just the man xD since
going by a best-lap time of about 18.5x seconds, I could race at least 2.5
seconds faster given the same amount of boosts as I got in this race, which
would yield a time of about 1.5 seconds faster as the current world record.
Well, I'm just questioned why nobody got this opportunity for about a year
now, but I got it within just a few week ... since Fury is out.

Are the pick-ups completely random? Nope. Have you ever seen two, three, or
four quakes on the track at the same time? No. And it doesn't even happen in
Eliminator. Hence, the pick-ups aren't completely random, some information is
distributed online. Complete randomness on the pick-ups is useless to say at
least. The game can be much more fun and challenging if the pick-ups aren't
completely random -- if they are distributed in some special way (for example
in an act / counteract fashion) which may also depend on the current situation
at hand.

[yeldar2097]

just a quick point about rb7's 1.42 on sol 2...that can be done without any boosts and only 6 BRs.
maybe there's something he's not telling us???? like wormwoodmoridins permaboost :P
:g

[archman]

"He's beating me cause he's cfw!! Cheating ****!!!!?!?!?!!" :lol

[OBH]

@ Connavar
100% agree with no vista pads = potential for more turbos :) (and apologies if it appears i was implying you are a sore loser :( perhaps i should have created a thread for each seperate point as they are both very different)

@ Task
:+ Expertly said

@ ProblemSolver
Do i need written permission to quote a pm? :) not having a bash at brummpahh personally, said at the beginning he's a sound, friendly and polite geezer who i would not say a bad word about. Just believe he has some wacky views on things. :beer


Multiplayer races needs skills too : reflexes to avoid weapon's shots, good lines, requires precision to hit opponents, a good tactical sense... and also an amount of luck ;)

Its strange, while i agree with almost every word you say here on WZ, I also get confused. You happily believe multiplayer requires skill + luck; but in the same breath believe only people who cannot reach top TT/SL/Zone times care about multiplayer times? I just dont understand that...... If somoene said to me im not even a half-decent WO player because i have decent MP times but dont do zone id laugh (though they could no doubt think of genuine reasons why i suck :g). I just cant stand zone as it takes too bloody long to finish a session.

I believe TT teaches you A LOT about the track, ive gone from hating it to loving it. Its amazing how much time you can lose by drifting out wide even the slightest amount, but i also believe putting that TT practice into an online competative situation, and producing your TT form is one of (if not THE) toughest thing you can do on wipeout. Espeically if your room is full of 'zoners.


I totally understand that it's fun to have a multiplayer record, but it's false to believe that it's because the owner is the world best pilot.

Very true. But neither is a TT / SL expert if all he can do online is absorb weapons and get shot in the face :)

Cant seem to help myself from drifting off topic......

[yeldar2097]

...or the arse ;)
:g

[ProblemSolver]

... @ ProblemSolver
Do i need written permission to quote a pm? :) not having a bash at brummpahh personally, said at the beginning he's a sound, friendly and polite geezer who i would not say a bad word about. Just believe he has some wacky views on things. :beer ...
Whether bash or not, one needs permission to fully quote a PM (Private Message) from
the person in question. A PM is similar to a closed letter and even an administator isn't
allowed to read PMs not adressed specificially to him/her. This holds true for all western
countries and esp. here in the European Union. However, you are allowed to quote small
parts of a PM, email, or a letter without requiring permissions. The lines are blurred in this
case. It depends. As a general guidline it's always save to ask beforehand.

In the given case, if you don't have any permissions, I would remove his name and only
quote some small parts of his PM, if necessary. Or you can just write; I had a discussion
with brummpahh about 'xyz', i.e. describe what was written with your own words.

[OBH]

Are you playing with me? :eek christ i hope he's not angry. If so im banning myself from making threads. Swear it always causes controversy and is inevitably locked...

[ProblemSolver]

Hey OBH, just keep it as a reminder. ;)

[Darkdrium777]

Okay so yes there are some hidden rules.
One I know is that two people cannot carry a quake at the same time. If someone has a quake and holds it, nobody else will ever get a quake. Ever.
There are probably other rules like that, like no more than three turbos, no more than five rockets, etc. These go along with the rarity levels for the weapons.
I don't believe that because you are in the lead you will get more turbos however. That is entirely up to luck.

[OBH]

Never thought of the number of items being held in total.

Though is that 100% true? I ask because ive been hit by 2, and on a rare occasion 3, consecutive quakes. Reckon thats just sheer luck??

Thinking about it, if this is true, keeping your turbos for a specific jump is more useful than i realised simply for reducing the numbo of turbos the other players can pick up.

[Darkdrium777]

I remember trying to do a backquake meeting a forward quake in the game.
Can't remember who I was trying with, but they picked up the first quake.
I spent five minutes shifting between two pads on Moa Therma. Never got a quake.
He fired the quake, I picked one up in the next thirty seconds. He couldn't get a quake again.

[leungbok]

Its strange, while i agree with almost every word you say here on WZ, I also get confused. You happily believe multiplayer requires skill + luck; but in the same breath believe only people who cannot reach top TT/SL/Zone times care about multiplayer times?
I think some can believe that yes (i still wonder what means the fact of doing mp races with only 2 players :eek), as i think that some br haters can't perform many of them, BUT not everybody of course.
Wotan or Yeldar are two of the best tt/sl pilots and they love mp races and have some records on those tables. I like mp too, but i don't care of the time i can reach on it, and that from the release of HD when i had some records.


Very true. But neither is a TT / SL expert if all he can do online is absorb weapons and get shot in the face :)

True, lol. But IMO when you can be fast with good lines, lot of difficult BRs/shortcuts and smart sideshifting, to learn the logical use of weapons and to keep calm (maybe not that easy :lol) is not a big deal ;)

To be back on topic, i feel too that the boosts are more numerous since Fury (when you're in front with all the weapon's pad available). It seems too that the same weapon pad gives often the same weapon lap after lap, i experimented that several times, but it's not an indisputed rule :D

[Koleax]

Okay so yes there are some hidden rules.
One I know is that two people cannot carry a quake at the same time. If someone has a quake and holds it, nobody else will ever get a quake. Ever.
That's believable, since avoiding multiple quakes could avoid bugs, and SL has been known to do unusual things to avoid bugs (e.g. "contender eliminated" not meaning what it says in MP matches). However, I do remember seeing two or three quakes in opposite directions in very quick succession, do I don't actually think this is the case. It's just more believable, given SLs behavior.

[kaori]

I remember trying to do a backquake meeting a forward quake in the game.
Can't remember who I was trying with, but they picked up the first quake.
I spent five minutes shifting between two pads on Moa Therma. Never got a quake.
He fired the quake, I picked one up in the next thirty seconds. He couldn't get a quake again.

We had tried that on Moa therma, in WipEout Pulse, with tioscarab and maybe you ;) and others, and it was impossible 2 players had both one quake.

[blackwiggle]

Slightly OT but since you guys are talking about quakes.

Has anybody been in an eliminator race when two quakes ,one going forward & the other reverse at the same time?

I've never seen it and I don't know if the game is programed so that this could ever occur,but then again I rarely play eliminator.

You'd have to feel sorry for whoever was stuck in the middle, but then again ...:lol

[KGB]

True, lol. But IMO when you can be fast with good lines, lot of difficult BRs/shortcuts and smart sideshifting, to learn the logical use of weapons and to keep calm (maybe not that easy :lol) is not a big deal ;)


Are there memories of Epsilon's Astral in there mate :P (I've got a long memory):D

[leungbok]

Yeah, that's why i wasn't categorical !! :D

[yeldar2097]

mmmmmmmm ASTRAL :D
best...races...ever :)

this thing about boosts sometimes being in the same place was also present pre-fury (of course it may have just been luck, i dunno). I had (might have again if i fix my laptop...) several videos where i'd get 4-5 boosts in one race, all from the same weapon pad. Could be luck of the draw but it's not more prevalent in fury than it was pre-fury :)
not as far as i can tell anyway... :P

[Aeroracer]

i find that to be true too.. when i get turbo from a pad i always revisit that same pad again the next lap to get another turbo..mostly i find another one but not always.

also when i get quaked if i have time to get to a pad in time its usally a shield to protect me..but again..not always

the pads are not completly random
thats obvious. the game is programed to give oppurtunities to players to some degree but fair for all i believe.way too much coincidence...

i do think pads are fair for all players as i have had 5 boosts in a game when i was rubbish at playing and low rank.

[Koleax]

It's not obvious to me. I have had experiences where it seemed like it was more than coincidence, but then many times where it hasn't. This is the nature of random phenomena. You would expect long chains of turbos to happen eventually, or long chains of the same thing on the same pad, etc., or else it wouldn't be random.

It's also human nature to believe that there are patterns in random phenomena. We evolved persistent pattern-seeking behavior because its usefulness to survival and reproduction outweighs the danger of perceiving patterns where there are none. So, we prefer bad explanations to no explanation. This explains the incredible variety of religions, philosophies, and general superstitions.

The quake thing, though, is a good point. I don't think I've ever picked up a quake from a weapon pad when a quake was behind me. I know it's rarely a shield, though. So maybe the chance of picking up a shield in that case is 1/7 rather than 1/8.

[brummpahh]

Hello m8's,

No, OBH had no permission on publishing my
private mail. Obviously privacy doesn't mean
something when it comes to showmanship.

Just wanted to know his private opinion as a top
5 player on a theory, but as a result i removed
him from my buddies list.

Back to the thread:
i'm sure only SL could give exact answers/data
on bonusses being fact or not.
Pity, i don't think this will happen.
Having fun with WO anyway...

brummpahh

[Aeroracer]

@koleax

sorry to hear that koleax..maybe i have good luck..

you talk like one of those experts from the old days that told everyone the world was flat and dissmssed all other views that didnt fit their own views.only to be proved wrong in the end..
using religion as a comparrison in your post is a bad idea too i think..i am religious as are many others...it is not a subject to talk dismissivly about in a games post...



i cannot prove you are wrong no more than you can prove me wrong...what you are experiencing when you play isnt what i experience...so basically it is up to game makers to tell us..... or someone can prove it..
i know if i made wipeout and if i thought about it, to program the pads to award weapons to counter weapons fired..adds spice to the game..but then lucky for some im not in that type of job..:)

as for randon phenomonon (excuse bad spelling) but isnt that a word that means the scientists really dont undersatnd yet..

[OBH]

Gutted.

[blackwiggle]

Had enough.

[Koleax]

I take it for granted that all religions cannot be right, so by "variety of religions" I meant just that, and did not mean to speak dismissively of any particular religion, philosophy, or belief.

[shindubhe]

people in 1st tend to get more boosts because they have more choice of pads ie all the pads, this is a reward for getting to the front, its just common sense that someone in the middle of the pack would get less because there are people fighting over them. i dont believe higher rank effects anything at all, i have had tons of boosts when in 1st and then again on other times i have got tons of leech's. why would SL favor me with the leech gun?.

i can see why people would think otherwise because it feels unfair when you see 1st place get 2-3 boosts in a row but the fact is play enough times and it will happen to you also, its just a matter of numbers.:D

[ProblemSolver]

... No, OBH had no permission on publishing my
private mail. Obviously privacy doesn't mean
something when it comes to showmanship.

Just wanted to know his private opinion as a top
5 player on a theory, but as a result i removed
him from my buddies list.
Well, OBH, you obviously violated brummpahh's privacy since he hasn't
granted you any permission to publish his PM. As such please remove
his PM from your initial post.

Don't take it personal, but it's really a bad practise to fully quote a PM
without any permissions given.

[Aeroracer]

brmmphah is well respected player and a fantastic guy..i agree with problem solver..hayden,please remove his private email from the thread out of respect to him...he did only want to talk privatly and did not want a public debate...

:)

[JABBERJAW]

sounds like the better player does get more turbos, because he is more than likely in first place from his initial driving skill. I only read one page of this, so maybe this has already been said.

[Vartazian]

I see no problem with posting the PM online, We have all done it before. WHy should we change the rules now?

[Aeroracer]

@ varti..

the reason being is, that the email was not a insult. it was a private email from one friend to another and it was private.

i can understand someone posting a PM that was say a flame from some idiot..this wasnt the case so i think it would be good if obh respected brmmphahh wishes on this occassion and removed it..:nod and stop any ill feeling

[yeldar2097]

Emphasis on "Private".

It's like telling someone a secret - you expect a certain amount of discretion from the other party (sorry again to TCK for failing him in this respect :()
No doubt it was just an honest mistake on OBH's part, he's not the malicious type - he saves that for the track :P

Hopefully we can live by a slogan we should all know (and love): "Let's be friends" :g

[Aeroracer]

i agree obh is a nice guy and i dont think he did it with intention of upsetting anyone deliberatly..

but i can understand why brmmphahh is upset ..


@crawdad62....we need you too post another group hug picture....

spread the love...:)

[ProblemSolver]

... WHy should we change the rules now?
One cannot declare a rule to allow publishing closed letters, emails, or PMs legally
without any permission from the owner. It's prohibited by law.

[il_mago_di_Doz]

I agree with Yeldar, let's be friends.

I don't know you guys, but I've read all the thread, and it's obvious that obh didn't want to insult anyone and didn't know that rule. He did a mistake: brummpahh, forgive him if you can and just be friends in real life and bastards on tracks :) :pizza

[Luxoflux]

back on topic

First of all, i dont think there has been a change in the amount of turbos you get since fury. but from experience i do think that there are tracks that give you more turbos. extreme example beeing metropia fwd. getting way more turbos on that track then any other.

i think

[Koleax]

Na-nu-na-nu-na-nu-na-nu. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y)

[DISRUPTOR]

With regards to Brmmphahh's theory.

If no handicap system exists that rewards the better player as every player has already stated, why is it then that I can overtake for example slimjim2097 on a straight, in a slower ship without using any pads, Turbos's or sideshift yet I get overtaken myself by DarksiedMD whilst on a straight under the exact same racing conditions.

I have also experienced situations where I have shot missiles at skilled player's only for them to take no effect. When asking the players how they managed to not be slowed down they replied that they used a turbo or a auto pilot. This I know was not true as I can see what weapons they were using during the race by looking at the right hand side of the screen.

These are just examples of what I have experienced online many times.

Can anyone shed some light on this matter.

[Aeroracer]

lol..slimjim2097 said he let you pass cos he felt sorry for you and wanted to massage your ego..:p..he is not interested in small shrimp...:p

no.no.no ...seriously i cant answer your question but i know what you mean ..there strange things that happen online..see my time bending thread for some weird storys..:)

[brummpahh]

Hi m8's,

got OBH's apology and 'course accepted.
Let's be friends sounds positive.:+

Hey disruptor, you have the same selective
recognition pattern than me...funny.

brummpahh

[blackwiggle]

Disruptor

It's not just skilled players that when shot with missiles have no or little effect.

If you do get shot but have a weapon available, the quicker you absorb that weapon the less effect the one you got hit with will have regarding speed loss.
Your shield loss will still be just about as high though regardless of distance.

It's highly dependent on how close you were to the craft that fired on you as to how much speed you will lose.

Also the fact that Missiles and Rockets for that matter [plural] do not all always hit the one player,you might only partially hit them

[Connavar]

DISRUPTOR: maybe slimm... wasn't pushing the X button hard enough, you know
you can control your thrust right? :)

[Koleax]

Alright, I'm putting to rest the quake theory. Recently I had a quake in an Eliminator and tried to use it forward. It did not let me. Less than a second later I heard the "quake" warning, turned around, and tried to use it behind. It still would not let me. Only until I watched the quake pass me and finish completely did it allow me to use mine.

This was after the 2.1 update, though, so perhaps it was adjusted? Regardless, it can no longer be claimed that only one person at a time can have a quake, but it can be said that only one quake can be in effect, at least in a particular area on an Eliminator.

[Lance]

@ ProblemSolver
Do i need written permission to quote a pm?


Absolutely. Private messages are PRIVATE. It is one of the foundations of internet etiquette and general human responsibility to other humans and to a person's own honour to keep private communications private. It is good to see that an apology was made.

[OBH]

whatever you say. id have got the message though without the massive writing.

done, and done.

[Lance]

It wasn't just for you, it was a public message to all in an attempt to prevent any such thing from being done again by anyone whatsoever.